Friday, December 7, 2007

Is truth...truth?

Haven't had time to do this justice, but if anyone wants to kick it off... go ahead.

More to follow.

*Update.... click the link to see (12/7/07. 11.09pm PST) tnx

Seriously... nothing more yet!

*Ok, A little update

I have read the post from raisinberry on Pink Truth twice now. I have not had time to adequately respond. It is difficult to sort through the things that are universally true and the things that may be locally true in her examples.

Safe to say at this point that there are two main things that should probably be dealt with separately.

First is the concept of truth. Without getting to philosophical, there is a need to define what can always be expected and what may be the experience of isolated individuals... and why.

At my initial gloss (two readings) I would surmise that she got scammed by a con artist (or several) and actually joined in the con to some extent, thus perpetuating it. Again, this is a very initial observation and hopefully a more detailed analysis will follow. I imagine that at the very least this will serve as a benchmark of sorts to delineate the things that should be avoided from the things that should be expected and pursued.

Again, in the meantime, if you know what I am referring to and would like to add your feelings before the official post comes out (hopefully sometime tomorrow) leave a comment here!



  1. Raisinberry and the other former directors need to realize that many of us figured out how to manipulate the system years ago. The difference between us and them is we didn't, and still don't, do it. They allowed themselves to be talked into doing unethical business practices and now blame those that did the talking and Mary Kay for how it blew up in their faces.

    Well, DUH! Of course it's going to blow up in their faces! It's wrong!!

    If going the wrong way down a one-way street shortens your driving time by half, are you going to do it? No! For one thing you might get killed, but the main reason is it is against the law.

    If you start putting money into production or reaching a goal, it's not going to last or work because the work is not real.


    There are lots of things in life that can be manipulated and I have probably noticed how it can be done, figured out how it can be done, wondered how it can be done, but did I do it? Heck no! I'm honest!

    Wonder why that didn't occur to them? Being honest...what a concept.

    My team of recruits does production for car qualification about every three or four months. It just hits that way on its own. But I don't have enough recruits to qualify for a car. The production is there but not the people. Do I force it so I can get a car? Nope. Why? It's not honest. It wouldn't work. It's not the way the marketing plan was designed. If I had to force production (and warm bodies) those other months I'd be broke and have copays or lose the car. Wonder why that is. Oh yeah--it's not the way the marketing plan and car qualification plan was designed.

    So I just collect nice commission checks from my WORKING team.

    Imagine that.

    Raisinberry--you were an unethical, dishonest consultant and director. So are your buddies over there on PT. THAT'S the truth.


  2. I can relate to this since I saw it first hand. I was never anywhere near DIQ. But I see how my director scrambles every month end. And I can see how she would want to put in her own money. If you don't you could lose everything. I can see the temptation.

    I can see how it would be very easy to blame the director. But what about the ones egging them on? How can MKC not know about all of this? Shouldn't they say something? Do something? Call someone out? I think by not saying anything they are condoning it.

    When I started asking questions about this my director told me I didn't need to think about that. To let her do my thinking for me. What if I would have totally trusted her? What if I would have totally trusted the National who backed her up? I saw how suceessful they both looked and acted. What if I would have followed them and done exactly what they had said, thinking that I would end up just as suceessful?

    I don't think they (Directors) should be totally off the hook. But I don't think they should stand alone in judgement. MKC makes it too easy for them to get away with this.

    OK, all you pro MKers. I'm ready. I'm standing, eyes squinted, face turned away slightly, waiting for the onslaught. Let me have it . . .

  3. Judi, I don't want to let you have it at all, but I do disagree. I have never said that directors do not try to manipulate the system. They do, we all know that. But that is their decision and they must take personal responsibility for it. I have earned a car and I have been in DIQ and when the end of the month comes and you are short you think of all your options. But the difference between me and "them" is that I was smart enough to realize if I had to force production at that point, I would have to force production to KEEP the car. So I got out and found people and earned the car. My DIQ period started the next month and I missed it. So I started over, made the first month, and then I had other stuff happen and didn't finish (long story I have told before, don't feel like doing it again right now). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you force production you will have to KEEP forcing production. Those on PT are just ticked off that they didn't figure it out until AFTER the whole thing fell apart.

    Corporate interferes when they have complaints. They interfered big time when Robin Dunda wouldn't follow the rules. It amazes me that no one in the PT bunch has ever said, "Great job, corporate! You got rid of one the rule breakers!" That was HUGE. Her mom is an NSD and her unit was a $1million unit and they terminated her! As for the others, we are independent contractors and have a lot of leeway to conduct our businesses. Corporate is not a babysitter but even it was noticed that production hit every other month and most of the production was done by the director herself, how do they know she doesn't sell that much product?

    I know several consultants and directors who make the sales court EVERY year by selling thousands and thousands of dollars in product. The first one that comes to mind lives several counties over from me and she sells about $140,000 retail a year. No routine discounts either. Twice a year she has an open house and has a few specials and that's it. She has incredible customer service, sends birthday cards to each of her several thousand customers, and adds all kinds of special touches. She is amazing and has very loyal customers. She is a director and carries her unit herself! There are others out there that do the same.

    As for feeling pressure to do this or that and that other stuff they blather about, I'll play the mom here: if your director told you to jump off a bridge, would you do that too?

    And as for your question of "what if"? Well, what if? You would have been wrong to totally trust them, that's the answer. You didn't so there you go.

  4. I think the bridge analogy is way off base, me. That is so obviously not what a sane person would do. It's the subtle things you are asked to do, not the over the top ones.

    I think MKC allows it to be too easy to cheat in this business. When I was little my dad had a storage shed that was pretty rickety. Nothing of too much value was in there and the windows were not wonderful. It was a shack, really. Any one who wanted to could break in. But he put a small padlock on the door. My sister and I questioned him on it one day. He said locks were made to keep the honest man honest. If a dishonest man wanted to he could have broken in easily enough. But an honest man may be tempted, but encounter the lock and not do it. MKC needs to be that lock. Have some sort of deterent. There seems to be none. Don't encourage ordering. Encourage selling.

    I ordered the $2400 package when I signed up. Plus other things for personal use that my director thought I needed. Before I got my order in, before I even had my debut, before I had one SCC, I attended my meeting and was given a standing ovation for SALES. I hadn't done anything but hand over a credit card. My director stood up there, beaming. She said how proud she was of me. Of what? I had done absolutely nothing of importance. Knowing that I had not sold anything yet, my director asked if I wanted to place a small order the next month. Why would I?

    I have called corporate with some questions about ethical behavior by my director, other directors, a national or two that I have come in contact with. I was told they do not have the manpower to monitor everything. And I wouldn't expect them to. But I do think they should monitor the Nationals, who should monitor the directors.

    I cannot believe that my experience was the exception. I do not believe that I am unique. I think unethical behavior is rampant in this business and those who are ethical in their business don't get as far ahead. I think if someone gets to the car level very fast, corporate needs to look at what's going on. If someone is climbing the ladder very quickly, corporate needs to make sure everything is on the up and up. If someone is having to make co pays on their car it needs to be looked in to. God first, remember?

  5. Happy Saturday all,

    judi, I said in an earlier comment, that I was sorry that you ended up with a less than wonderful director. From reading your comments you do sound like a good woman who loves the product. I think you could have had a great business, little or big, if you had had different mentourship. That being said, I also think if you sought out knowledge from Company information and from using common sense, you may have gone further even with a not so good director. (Sorry not intended to be unkind).

    I have seen the Company audit a new directors' unit to find that a unit member (or members) was "casper" and I have watched them strip several "frauds" of their units. They will allow them to continue but they ARE closerly watched. Do you know that? It is the TRUTH. The Company DID terminate Robin and knew they would be dealing with alot of upset, but I do believe they were trying to send a message that, not only the little or new directors get in trouble for disobeying the Legal issues but everyone. I was truly impressed with the integrity of this call.

    I have an area director that was in the pink cadillac, family illness did affect the time she could put into her business and she was having to make coop payments on the Cadillac, she called the Company, and she drop to a Grand Prix unit. No problem, she was making Grand Prix production so continued very well with no coop payments.

    What was different with her than the directors you read about on PT? She did not let her pride get in the way. She did not "have" to fool everyone into thinking they were a pink cadillac unit by making a coop payment. She made a decision that was benenficial to her family.

    I think I have said it over and over again. You can only be manipulated if you allow yourself to be. I am not an overconfident person, but I am smart enough not to pay for praise. And I may do something stupid once, but I learn from my mistakes and don't make the same mistake twice. What is the old saying "Sh** on me once, shame on you, SH** shame on me.
    David, hope my ** covered the language, the expression just doesn't pack the same impact substituting another word in there!

    I have said before, I have done Court of Sales 12x, I don't even wear the rings except at MK events, when not on my fingers, I actually throw them in the drawer of my bread box, it was not getting the "diamond ring" that motivated me, it was acheiving the level. I, personally would not be able to stand up infront of 10,000 other consultants and take recognition for something I did not achieve. To me, if I had bought the prize, I would be too embarrassed to stand before my piers and glow in their applause, knowing I was a fake! I is my level of accountable. One may be able to fool alot of people but you will never be able to fool yourself. Deep down inside if you cheated, you know you cheated. If you lied, you know you lied, you may try and justify it, but the truth is the truth.

    The only ring that carries a special place, did you know if you achieve Court of Sales so many times, there are other options, such as a man's ring, or cash?? I ran out of fingers and I now have enough to give one to each of my sisters, sisters-in-laws, daughter, and daughter-in-laws, so I asked the Company. The faxed me a picture of the man's ring. It was the best ring I have ever seen from MK. I worked hard that year because I gave it to my hubby on our wedding day. Do you know how much it meant to him that I earned it?? I wasn't rolling in dough, had been a single mom for years and wanted this special man to have something special. (And before anyone says that MK ended my previous marriage - it didn't the war and my ex's post traumatic shock disorder breakdown did.)

    Now, I think I would take the cash because I haven't figured out how to grow more fingers and they just don't work on the toes, even if we are now permitted to wear open toe shoes (humor intended here)

    I wish I could make every director work the way, I and my sister directors do. -I can't- I also would like everyone in the world to treat others with respect, I would love to see no racism in the world, I would love to see hunger and war done away with. I can't do any of this on my own. What is important is the part I play in the big picture. We must answer for ourselves.... ultimately the decision is ours.

    as for many of the directors I read on PT, my OPINION is they got caught in the trap of doing it wrong and pride didn't permit them to take a step back. Some see the light, others choose to keep blaming everyone else. Others, honestly, need professional help.

    I enjoy this site because it does allow questions and conversation.

    My unit members know there is no question they can't bring to me. I have encouraged a consultant NOT to continue DIQ (yes, for real) her team just wasn't strong enough. And for the record... I wish the company would go back to needing 12 as oppossed to 8 to begin directorship. I feel the stronger you go into diq the better and stronger you will come out of diq.

    And ask anyone, often the last day of the month, I will be at the race track watching our buddy run his late model, bowling with my hubby on our Thursday night league, at the movies with the family, etc.... I rarely am sitting by the phone or on the phone, I have better things to do with my life. And I have troulbe asking people for anything in life, how would I ask people to put in orders that they didn't need? I have TOO much pride for that. If I need production - I will sell enough product to put it in or I don't belong in the suit.

    Off to wrap, Christmas presents and then back to the mall!! Hopefully hubby will get his deer since he is out hunting. Yup, we live in redneck country.

  6. Judi and others. Here is the problem. The anti-MK forces try to lump everyone in one category. While there are some directors who might give advice that is not in the best interest of the consultant, there are others, like myself, who do not. I have personally told consultants that they do not need to order anything else until they sell something. I also teach them to watch the numbers during the month and I send out messages if they are close to a 13% check or are about to miss commission. As for my personal month end ordering, I put pen to paper and fingers to the calculator. As a director, it often times benefits me to throw in an order at the last minute, by putting me into a new bonus. The key is to do the math and see how it comes out, not just to throw in an order every time that you are close to something. I teach my consultants to do the same and even help them figure their check at 9% compared to 13% and looking at that beside what they would need to order. I have also encouraged consultants NOT to submit for DIQ and not to continue in DIQ because their team was not strong enough, as well as encouraging directors to step down when appropriate. There is nothing magical about the suit if you are not making any money or are just paying to keep your unit. I have been around long enough to know that weak DIQs and weak offspring units do not benefit anyone, including the consultants in those units and the Sr. Director as well. I am here for the long run and will get no where building that way, so I do not practice it.

    If the PTers and other anti-MK forces want truth, then they should start posting the whole truth themselves, not just picking out what furthers their cause. That is not truth.

    I will be the first to help you weed out the bad seeds in MK, but when you attack us all, then you isolate yourself from those still in the company, consultants who could help change what you complain about.

    Truth is a funny thing, it can be twisted so perversely. Just like the argument to stop consultants from stocking inventory. Ask around, most consultants WANT TO STOCK INVENTORY, I know that I do. And this idea that every director "fakes" everything and cheats every chance that she gets is just not true.

    I empathize with anyone who has been mistreated in Mary Kay and encourage them to document their experience in writing WITH NAMES of the perpetrators and send it into Mary Kay. I would love to see the unethical ones gone. If more of the anti-MKers would try this approach rather than trying to bring down the whole company, something might get done. Trying to ruin the livelihood of those who are ethical only makes enemies of us. We could work together to get rid of the bad seeds and that would be a win for all, UNLESS your motivation is vengeance. The company does keep records of written complaints, and while yours may not produce action on its own, an accumulation of complaints against certain individuals will.

  7. So many times I hear that we (not lovers of MK) think that no one is doing this job ethically. I do not think that. I am sure there a select few who are directors and are doing it right. I just don't think you are making much money in compensation for the time you are spending doing it. Because if you are a director and are truly directing, then you are spending time with your unit. And the way to make money with your unit is by your consultants ordering. Or you can't spend that much time with your unit so you are selling. Then your consultants don't have much guidance. And if you do it all, then you are spending way to much time working. I just have never seen it balanced, ethically. I am sure many will say they do it or their director does it. I just have never seen PROOF of it being done.

  8. judi, what you are asking for is not fair, the only way I could PROVE everything I have shared would be to give you a copy of my credit report and my tax returns. Would you expect me to share that information publically? In all fairness, I have shared almost every aspect of my life and put my numbers in documents. Use a calulator, use the advance brochure, read my examples, if you do all that, it does add up. If i were lying about anything - a very analytical person would be able to find any errors or misrepresentations to counter my info.

    You do not want to believe it can be done so there is nothing any of us can say to change your mind. And.. that is your right. May you be successful in whatever you choose to do in life.

    I will admit early in my directorship I did put many many hours in, but in my career I put more hours than I ever did in Mary Kay. Those heavy early years with lots of hours have paid off, I have lots of working happy consultants. Sometimes, I admit, I even feel guilty that I don't do more than I do but I have a very full life and the money I bring in is comfortable. When all the kids are out of high school and I have just me, hubby, and the pets, you can bet your bottom dollar, I will put more hours in and who knows maybe I will be able to tell you I make six figures after taxes and expense. til then...

  9. One last thought, I always laugh because I joke that if I can do what I have done with MK with my crazy (fun) upside life, then it seems that everyone should be able to do it. (I do realize everyone can not) If you looked at my life from the outside and see what I juggle, it should be easy for those with a calmer lifestyle.

    Guess everything is what one makes of it.

  10. Okay, really last thought, this doesn't seem too far fetch an analogy.

    Many peoople get married, many of those marriages end in divorce, painful bitter divorces, should all people stop getting married because of this? A person that has had a bad marriage may believe that all couples that stay together are faking their happiness. This would be their truth. But is it the truth? It is all in the eye of the beholder.

    Many people that get divorced do find love again and will remarry. Should one bad experience stop them from taking a second chance? Should knowing many others that get divorced stop them from getting a second chance at a happily married life?

    If one's mind is made up, sometimes there will never be enough proof to change it.

  11. me, mk4me,happyinpink,

    I agree with all of ya'll. I see that some directors are not doing this on the up and up. However that does not makes us all that way. I know that the pt people like to lump everyone together and I guess since we live in a free country they can do that...however is that really on the up and up.


    I know that you got burnt by your director. You know my director wanted me to order when I first signed up and guess what I didn't. She told me that I would get free product for this size order and I still didn't. I actually sign up for persoal use. Well...then I had to have surgery and was laid up for 6 weeks and with nothing to do I pulled out all the MK things in the starter kit and started reading. As I am reading I am thinking I can sell this stuff, I like it and this would be a way to make some extra money...I have HIGH MAINTENANCE TWIN DAUGHTERS..hehehehe. I wrote down names and everything that the kit told me to do then I started sharing it with others and wearing my MK pin. Never have I warm chattered, ladies see my pin and ask and then I tell them. I am not pushy. I still work at my hair salon because I love it and have been doing that about 26 years...guess what I don't push (hair)products there either. I don't sell my MK out of there either. If someone asks me about it then I will tell them and they say "oh do you have it here. "No it is at my house I can have it to you tomorrow." If I wasn't on the up and up I would keep it in my back roon. Don't do it.

    Like I have said before on this site if life hands you a lemon add some sugar and make some lemonaide. I am telling you in the hair world you would not believe some of the things that go on. I could blame so and so not happening we have to take responsibility for our own actions. My point I know it is taking me a long time to get here is...I didn't order a big order the first time I order what I needed and that was it and I didn't order it until about 5 months after I had signed my agreement. It was my choice not anyone elses and that is because this is my business and not anyone elses.

    Hope everyone has had a GREAT DAY

  12. Okay, maybe the bridge was off the beam. How about this: If your best friend asked you to cheat on your husband, would you do it? Maybe, if you had an unhappy marriage. If your best friend asked you to go shopping and then asked you to help her shoplift, would you do it? Maybe, if you were dishonest. But I bet you would not do either of those things because they are wrong, unethical, and in the second case, illegal.

    The ladies that posted after me: Yeah! What you said! Those of us in Mary Kay that are honest and build and work out businesses the honest, ethical way WANT those that do not to disappear. Everyone who observes the bad behavior should report it to corporate with names, addresses and serial (in our case, consultant) numbers! Report it even if you don't have their consultant number--just report it!!!!

    Judi, your director was absolutely wrong to beam and be proud when all you had done was order product. If I were a director I would have said I was proud of you for starting with inventory and I would promise to do all I could to train you to book, sell and recruit. I would comment on the fact that you were a star consultant. But since you had not sold anything yet, how could I brag on you about that?

    MK4ME said "pride got in the way" of those on PT. Oh yes, that is exactly right. Corporate doesn't have to keep tabs on that--everyone is responsibile for their own actions, ethics and morals. Corporate does spot-check things but my goodness, there are over a million of us! If they added staff to babysit and check every single one of us, our prices would go up and we would lose customers!

    The company was based on the Golden Rule. It's obvious that some people in Mary Kay doesn't treat themselves very well so don't treat others well either. But Mary Kay, the lady, believed in all of us, and I for one like to hold her as my example and practice my business the way God would want me to.

    And pride goeth before the fall.


    *waving at MK4ME*

    P.S. Ladies, I "know" MK4ME and her life is crazy busy, yet she does director work and has a personal business too. She makes it all work and she does it honestly.

  13. Waving back to you "ME" and thank you for the vote of confidence, it means alot. And may I return the compliment in saying, "ME" has alot going in her corner too even though (for now) her time doesn't allow going for directorship, when the time comes, she will make a great one. (But it will be on her time schedule, no one else's)

  14. Some great thoughts and interaction going on here.

    I have (finally) posted my "response" to this topic.

    You can read it here.

    Thanks for all your thoughts and hopefully the conversation can continue over there.

  15. Judi,
    It seems to me that YOU would have made a great director. Simply because the things that turned you off about this business, imply that you are an honest women who is not afraid to ask questions, and do things the right way. Unfortunatley you did not have anyone in your leadership to help you use those qualites and turn them into a successful MK busniness.

  16. I would like to comment about "truth" as presented by PT.

    I am a former MK rep (over 12 years ago) that has(over the years) toyed with the idea of signing back up with MK. As I have said numerous times, I did not have a bad experience with MK. I did not send back any inventory. (I didn't have any! LOL) The meetings were fun, when I went. If I wanted to, I did. If I didn't, I didn't. No big deal. :)

    When I first found PT, reading the stories really filled me with a sense of relief that I did not get back into MK. There was not a single positive experience on PT. None! I thought to myself that the company must have become this horrible corporation of degenerates! LOL

    Two things happened to change my mind:

    First, I saw the blatant censorship on PT. Positive stories about MK are not allowed. Period.

    Second, I attended the first SCC I have been to in years. Seeing the success of a new consultant with no experience really contradicted the "no customers/everyone hates SCC's/no one buys anything full retail/MK sucks" mantra that is spouted at PT over and over again.

    I don't mind people saying they had a bad experience with MK. No problem.

    But if you claim to promote truth, then tell the truth. Both sides. Do not commit the same sin of censorship that you claim to hate in pro-MKer's.

    If you are not going to proclaim truth, then change the name to Pink Tirade.

    That, of course, is just my humble opinion.


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