Thursday, January 31, 2008

Questions of integrity and ethics

In the process of doing business, you will invariably be faced with decisions that will test your moral

Give it a quick read and then reveal what you believe to be right and wrong.


TOPIC:
product replacement….too good to be true??
#4081
the mommy (User)
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product replacement….too good to be true?? 4 Days ago Karma: 1 Karma+ Karma-
I’ve used the product replacement service a couple of times with no problems. I just entered the info re the old product, and ordered what product I wanted to replace it. It was really easy, and I’m wondering if there is any down side to using it. I ask b/c it seems too easy and RIGHT for MK to offer it.
Any thoughts or negative experiences?
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#4086
Imdone (User)
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Female Raleigh, NC 1959-08-19

Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 3 Days, 23 Hours ago Karma: 1 Karma+ Karma-
I used it quite a lot to move old lipsticks I wasn’t selling and reordered things I could sell. I never had any problems. I found out that you can’t return more than four items at a time without having to call in and let them “allow” you to do so. Other than that I did it every couple of weeks and was never questioned except once.My guess is that if too many people take advantage of it they may change it because it because it doesn’t make MK any money.

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#4090
the mommy (User)
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Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 3 Days, 22 Hours ago Karma: 1 Karma+ Karma-
thanks, this helps alot! Yeah, I feel sure that there is a point where MK would/will pull the plug on this. Every couple of weeks is more than I would have thought to be safe, so COOL! I will be taking advantage for sure!
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#4113
Imdone (User)
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Female Raleigh, NC 1959-08-19

Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 3 Days, 18 Hours ago Karma: 1 Karma+ Karma-
Of course I always felt that MK must have thought I was an idiot for not being able to match my customers that well..hee hee. I picked on my mom a lot as someone who returned product, that was always the hard part for me, deciding who needed to “return” something.
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#4114
the mommy (User)
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Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 3 Days, 18 Hours ago Karma: 1 Karma+ Karma-
does it have to be someone real?? can we make someone up? HOW SNEAKY!!!

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#4176
ContourTHIS (User)
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Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 3 Days, 2 Hours ago Karma: 3 Karma+ Karma-
There was a comment a while back from someone on this… let me see if I can get it right. She got questioned about a replacement order for herself, and was told by the MK rep on the phone the she (the IBC) was not a customer. The rep indicated MK would replace for anyone other than the IBC, to which the IBC asked well, what if it was my dog? And the MK rep laughingly said she thought that would work.My cat has become a HUGE fan of MK… but she’s very picky and returns a lot of product, especially outdated stuff that is off-odor or too thick
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#4179
ttp (User)
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Female Oregon 0000-10-29

Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 3 Days, 1 Hour ago Karma: 5 Karma+ Karma-
Yes, I remember that thread. How ironic is it that an IBC is not considered a legitimate customer, however a dog is. What is wrong with this picture?

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#4326
MKidiotNOmore (User)
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Female Bowling Green, KY 1976-08-18

Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 11 Hours, 57 Minutes ago Karma: 4 Karma+ Karma-
Imdone wrote:

QUOTE:
….I found out that you can’t return more than four items at a time without having to call in and let them “allow” you to do so…..

Actually you CAN return more than 4 things without having to call them first. I just did a product return for 7 items - 2 different customers - and it didn’t even blink at me while entering them. $234 worth.

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#4330
raw joy (User)
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Re:product replacement….too good to be true?? 6 Hours, 42 Minutes ago Karma: 0 Karma+ Karma-
ttp wrote:

QUOTE:
Yes, I remember that thread. How ironic is it that an IBC is not considered a legitimate customer, however a dog is. What is wrong with this picture?

I thought the IBC was the only customer.


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There it is. If you want to "cheat" and see what other people have said about this topic, you can see it on "duh's" site here *disclaimer, there may be "offensive language" on this site*

Now in addition to commenting on this particular situation, I want to hear how you resolve "grey" areas in your life and your business. Do you find ways to justify actions that you feel or believe are wrong, but wish were right? Is something REALLY wrong if everyone you know says it is right?

Please be as revealing or guarded as you feel comfortable. Remember that this is a public site and anything said can be seen by anyone, copied and saved forever, and brought up and discussed on other sites. If you don't want something you say to be scrutinized by someone who doesn't agree with you, don't say it here!

Keep it friendly - keep in mind that at the end of the day we are all just fellow human beings trying to figure out what time we have to wake up in the morning.

17 comments:

  1. We are all going to make a poor judgement calls in our lives. My feelings is when you intentionally do something you know is wrong over and over, it speaks volumes about your character and then
    to go online and then "brag" and suggest others do the same takes it even to a higher degree of wrong. Especially when you start even joking about your wrong doings.

    When I see this type of attitude, does it surprise any of us that our society is in the mess that it is.

    Doing something wrong and having remorse once you have had a chance to reflect on it, is very different than what I see here.

    And if this is the thought process of many of those that believe that you must be unethical to make it to the top in Mary Kay, now I see why they think like that.

    All these posters acknowledge they are using it in a way it shouldn't be used and in the long run it will cost and hurt all of us but why should they be concerned about who else they may be hurting.

    This post is truly very sad and upsetting to me.

    And personally, I am glad these individuals are no longer a part of Mary Kay.

    ReplyDelete
  2. This post was very disheartening.

    However, just as PT'ers lump all of us together and make general accusations against those of us who actually enjoy and are flourishing in our Mary Kay businesses, I won't lump these individuals together and state that ALL ex, or current disgruntled consultants are like these who posted. I will take the higher ground on that.

    I will comment on these particular posters, however. It is sad to see how brazen they are as they brag about their lack of ethics. What is it if not bragging????

    On a fun note . . . my Team Leader went into DIQ last night. I'm so very excited for her! We have such a tight team. I'm sorry that those who had such a terrible experience with Mary Kay didn't have the support of a well trained team. I'm definitely not a lone ranger here!

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  3. I don't even understand what they mean about being able to return product in their own name. I have had some adverse reactions to some things I tried on myself, and I had absolutely no trouble entering my own name and getting it exchanged. It's always gone through just fine.

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  4. Off topic but don't know where else to put it

    Lazy Gardens said:
    I can't say this often enough ... the fastest way to increasing profits is to REDUCE inventory to as low as it can be without losing too many customers

    sorry, I must chuckle at this wonderful business advice. My clients even if they order only two lipsticks a year are important to me. I don't want to loose any of my clients.

    I wonder if she owned a dress shop, she would only advise the owner to have one dress in each size and then you must order if you want a particular stlye in another size?? I can't tell you how many times before like a Holiday party I rush around to find a dress I like to wear that night, waiting wouldn't work for me- Pray tell how long a store would stay in business operating like that....

    Or if a grocery store, didn't stock enough milk or toilet paper, and figured, oh well, if we loose a few customers because they only buy milk here, who cares.. They stock what they think they will sell, if occassional, they have to loose a product, it is a business risk. I am glad she wasn't one of my business management teachers.

    Now don't get me wrong, I understand we all don't need 10 of every item on our shelves at any time .. some consultants can actual operate quite well with only $1000 wholesale on their shelves and others that have built a selling business really end up in trouble letting it dip below $10,000 wholesale ..but...how in the world would anyone in business say "who cares if you loose a customer??"

    Niiiiiccce customer service!

    ReplyDelete
  5. I was cleaning my office and found this little clipping I had saved and thought it said alot…

    Be Honest…Mary Kay’s thoughts on the importantce of building trust with others.

    “As we journey through life, the most valuable assets we carry with us are our intergrity, our reputation, the good, honest name upon which we can build our future in business. Integrity is the calling card we leave behind when we are gone. It is the one trait our customers remember most often when they think of us. When they believe in us, they believe in our product. and wehn they believe in our product, they guarantee our success.”

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  6. Hey all! They just announced today on InTouch that they are reducing the production requirements for Grand Achiever. I think we need a post on this. I know some do not agree with lowering such standards. I'm on the fence. I think it's OK for this level because it is not a director car, but if someone is also trying to achieve directorship, it could hinder them. Just curious what others think! :)

    ~Shades of Pink~

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hi all, if I read things right, they are lowering the requirements for Grand Achiever but this would only apply to directors at that level. The article says "unit" production. A consultant maintains team production.

    Unless something out changes, to my knowledge, approx for production for a quarter for a consultant would be $13,500 ($4,500/per month).

    Disclaimer - I could be incorrect, but it is the way I read it.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hey MK4Me, I saw your comment on my blog. If that is the case, I'm wondering if that helps or hinders. I suppose that would help--less co-op payments, less directors stepping down, etc. Maybe it's a good thing. I wasn't sure if it would make it too easy. But perhaps it would be a good thing. Sorry to be so repetitive. I just woke up! ;)

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  9. Tracy said in part, on her “The Mary Kay Way: Lies, lies, and more lies” post:

    “It's just a fact... there is rampant deception in the process, from recruiting all the way through quitting.”
    “Some are telling outright lies. Others are telling many lies of omission. Either way, they're lies.”

    Tracy’s post, “Profit Level Inventory in Mary Kay”:

    Tracy says this, “Here's how the Mary Kay explanation goes:” she then apparently has copied some document. Tracy does not cite her source. Let me rephrase that, Tracy OMITS her source. But she attributes this to Mary Kay, Inc.

    At the end of her posts, Tracy says: “This document is just a deceptive tool to get consultants to order far more than they should.” Note the word “deceptive”.

    Raisinberry makes a few comments, but one I particularly enjoyed.

    She begins her comment with “Mary Kay Cosmetics has nothing to do with real business at the IBC level... Look...some National or Director put this "profit level" document out there, with the exact words on it to show the fraud of it all!” Note that Raisinberry says that some “National or Director put this…document out there”. Well, at least she realized this did not come from Mary Kay, Inc. As for it being “fraud”? No. It’s just one NSD or Director’s way of explaining it.

    BUT, then Raisinberry ends the very same comment with this, “MK uses numbers in ways that serve their motive at the time, and this document stands as proof.”

    What just a cotton-pickin’-minute. She begins saying this is not from the company, then ends says this is “proof” that “MK uses numbers in ways that serve their motive at the time.” Is she saying it’s from the Company, or not? Is she that confused?

    My point is this: Tracy claims there is “rampant deception” in MK and “outright lies”. Yet, using Tracy’s own criteria, look at all the rampant deception, outright lies, lies of omission, that are all over the place there on the Pink Truth site. Tracy very seldom cites her sources. This makes it impossible for any of her readers to verify her information. And this, people, is one very huge sign that indicates the writer knows that her writings will NOT stand up under scrutiny.

    So, to sort of quote Tracy, If I had to boil down my beef with Pink Truth into one word, it would be LIES. I can’t stand all the lies that posters and commenters tell, and Pink Truth encourages. It’s just a fact…there is rampant deception in the site and forum, from the very beginning all the way to now. Is it a small problem that is being committed by a few? No, it is a huge problem at Pink Truth being perpetrated by most. Yes, I said, it. I believe that most of the comnenters on Pink Truth are lying. Some are telling outright lies. Others are telling many lies of omission. Either way, they’re lies. (End of “sort of quote”).

    I will also add, lies by deception. Things worded in just such a way as to be slightly deceptive, or blatantly deceptive.

    The motive? To deceive people into hating Mary Kay, Inc., to return their products, to quite, or to never sign up in the first place. Why? Who knows. Tracy’s got her own agenda going on. But it sure isn’t to truly help others. IF she really wanted to be helping others, she’d be operating this Pink Truth site honestly, specifically by actually providing her sources and resources so people could read it for themselves, VERYIFY the information for themselves, not just take Tracy Coenen’s word for it.

    And that’s my opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Lazy Gardens said:

    "I can't say this often enough ... the fastest way to increasing profits is to REDUCE inventory to as low as it can be without losing too many customers. If the woman who buys a lipstick every two years stomps off in a snit because she has to wait ... you lost a tiny profit and a big expense." emphasis mine

    Really? Just how many is "too many" to lose? Five? Ten?

    And about "that" woman who "stomps off in a snit" :

    What about the Christmas she needs last-minute gifts (over the next 10 years)?

    What about the friends she recommends/introduces you to?

    What about her daughters? Her mom? Cousins? Coworkers?

    -------------- OR --------------

    How about all of these people she tells about how you S*CK at customer service because her small purchase isn't enough for you to worry about?

    Stupid stupid stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  11. mkshay, I guess good minds think alike, did you read my post earlier where I picked up the exact same post by Lazy Gardens. (Note to self, don't take lessons on how to operate a successful business from L.G.)

    I guess if you don't care about taking care of your clients, it doesn't surprise me that one wouldn't have any!
    -Customer Service anyone??

    ReplyDelete
  12. I can't let these go by, I just must share. These were on PT today:

    After reading them I wonder if we will ever see another post from selina, and I get the feeling Lipstick wanted to say what she said but then had to end her last paragraph so that she didn't get banned.

    But isn't it amazing that the suggestions are what all of us have always said. So please, someone tell me, why do they not get it can be done right??

    selina said:
    I honestly don't think it is in Mary Kay's interest or the Nsd/Sds interest. The more you frontload, the more likely that person will be forced to return it. ( then you have to give a refund)The less inventory a person buys the more they can stay in. I only purchased $300 as an initial order an I am still active. If they hadn't been frontloading all these people on here might still be consultants and this website might not exist. All the people I know who bought a lot wound up returning it and the people who bought little are still in.

    Sat 02 Feb 08:41 Lipstick said:
    bluepink and PinkApostate, you both have some important points. I believe if SD's focused on IBC's making a minimal investment ($600) and then focused on teaching them how to book classes and sell product (ethically) and then taught them to recruit with the same plan they started on (minimal investment and learning the basics of the business) they would see many more IBC's staying with the company and many more finding some measure of success. Another key point would be teaching money management.

    It would be far easier to operate using good business practices and keep IBC's who are happy and achieving some measure of success than to go for the "gold" right away and eventually lose IBC's because they realize their dream is unachievable.

    Long term working IBC's who become SD's and continue what they were taught lead to long term businesses, happier people all around, thus fewer returns and chargebacks.

    How about this idea, MKCorp gives X number of samples with every purchase, free of charge or like in the days when I started sold tester sizes of products at a reduced cost. I do believe that samples are just another way the MKCorp has devised of making money off the IBC's. Selling demo sizes of products at cost would be better for everyone all around and help those IBC's sustain their businesses.

    Tell me doesn't that make more sense than the greedy way MKCorp and SD's operate now? Get all the money you can in the beginning because few will be able to sustain a business.

    ReplyDelete
  13. This is a comment on PT by no more pink kool aid:

    "I don't have to hide cc statements from my husband anymore."

    And this is MK's fault?

    Um. Nooooooooo. It's not. That is a poor choice NMPKA made. (And a dishonest one at that, IMHO)

    ReplyDelete
  14. MK4ME -

    Yep, I saw your comment. Had to add my 2 cents. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  15. mk4me posted a comment by "Selina" from PT:

    "How about this idea, MKCorp gives X number of samples with every purchase, free of charge or like in the days when I started sold tester sizes of products at a reduced cost. I do believe that samples are just another way the MKCorp has devised of making money off the IBC's. Selling demo sizes of products at cost would be better for everyone all around and help those IBC's sustain their businesses. "

    1. Give away samples to who? Selling consultants? All consultants? which samples? My wife has had a few customers who want to have a sample of every color and then only buy one or two lipsticks or eyeshadows. Multiply that across the how many consultants, and the overal cost would be tremendous.

    2. "Tester sizes at reduced cost": The only "tester sizes" I remember were Extra Emoillient Night Cream, sunscreens, and hand cream (still available). The other non-retail-packaged items were "Demo" tubes to be used by consultants. MKC did the right thing in eliminating the demo tubes and having consultants demonstrate with retail products. Can you imagine the expense of making special, limited-quantity runs of demo-tube products? The only reason to make smaller-size product available is because of the TSA cary-on limits. However, we'e had a request for that from exactly one customer (an Army pilot) for exactly one item (sunscreen).

    3. MKC is making a bottom-line profit after selling samples to consultants. How would Selina know this? She wants MKC to sell them "at cost". Does that mean raw material cost or cost to manufacture? How about the cost to warehouse them and the labor to pick one of this color and one of that color for an individual consultant? Perhaps the cost per individual sample would be lower if MKC made the minimum sample order size to be 144 (12 gross) of a certain color, but how many consultants would buy that many samples of a single color item at one time?

    Imagine that you ran an office supply store. Does anyone think that you could call up the BIC Corp and order (wholesale) one of this type of pen and one of another and another pack of a third. The BIC salesperson would laugh at you and say, "No, the minimum order quantity is a dozen/gross/case of each, the minimum order size is $XXX, and freight will be $XXX." Compare that to MKC, where a consultant can order one of this and one of that, has the Earned Order Discount for the next 3 months once a $200 minimum whsl order has been submitted, and has a flat $8.75 shipping cost.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Gee. I wonder why MK reps need ANY samples, since there aren't any retail customers anyway (according to PT).

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    And why do so many PTers have such an issue with MKC making a profit? I thought that's what businesses do.

    HEY! Maybe that's why they didn't succeed in MK - they don't think businesses are SUPPOSED to make a profit. It's evil.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Sorry. Feeling cranky tonight. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  17. I have to agree with this. I was in a discussion yesterday at my shop with a lady that said the oil companies are making to much money (and they might be I don't think so) anyway I asked why do you think they are in business to make money. I am in business to make money. You don't go into business not to make a profit. I don't understand this understanding.

    I know that some will agree with the ladies statement however my girls and I were in London about 4 years ago and the price for their gas 4 years ago was 6.50 sterling per gallon that would be $13.00 a gallon.

    Anyway my point here is that compnaies go into business to make a profit not to give everything away. Look on pt she is trying to make a profit off her t-shirts and her little adds that she has all over that site. So everyone is out to make a buck and what is wrong with that? Those ladies whine about this and cry about that like I have said many times before if you don't like it then get out and move on. tc will not move on why because she is making a profit off her site, I don't think that if she wasn't she wouldn't have that site up. Just my opinion.

    Have a great day

    ReplyDelete

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