Sunday, January 27, 2008

More good than bad OR more bad than good?

Some excellent conversation is developing on the "99% thing" post. Be sure to check that out and add your thoughts!

One thing that stood out to me is the disparity between the "more good than bad" and "more bad than good" camps. If you read on any of the anti-MK sites much you will find the feelings echoed by regular commentator Judi that there are far more problems and obstacles and unethical practices in Mary Kay than are worth the effort. If you read on many of the Pro-MK sites (including you find the opposite sentiment. Many believe that there are so few problems, obstacles and unethical practices that even entertaining the dissenters with conversation about it is a waste of time.

My strong conviction is that we can't possibly know the answer to this conundrum. With over 700,000 US consultants it seems unlikely that anyone claiming 300 members that have all testified to the EXACT SAME experience could claim a majority. Even if we make it 3,000 or 30,000 we are still no where near a majority. Add to that problem the fact that many who have had a "bad" or "unpleasant" experience with Mary Kay share extremely varied complaints. From "MK is too controlling" to "MK should be more controlling". From "MK is too expensive" to "MK is too cheap". Due to these and many other "lesser" differences, the overall "complaint" is not the same. Similarly, those sharing their "MK is great because..." stories tend to vary in what they are looking for and what they "get out of it".

However, since everyone loves to explain why their experience represents the majority, here is your chance.

Naturally, I am not looking for evidence here or 100% proof - but please also refrain from using exaggerations and assumptions.

As an example, I know my wife. She sells Mary Kay. I know and have spoken directly to her director, her recruiter, several of her units team members and all of her team members. They all seem to genuinely enjoy their experience. Her director is certainly NOT hurting for cash - but also does not pressure my wife to "buy" any achievements. I personally have not had any experience with out of state MK folk (except those on this site) so I will not speak to that personally.

Online I have read what amounts to "believable" testimony from both sides of the equation. I don't think that I have seen enough to conclusively state one thing or the other. However, I will say that based on what I have seen so far, there is a very small likelihood that the "squeaky wheels" posting online smear sites actually represent the majority. If the majority of the 700,000+ US consultants (350,001 or more) were being manipulated and suffering the atrocities posited by the Anti-MK sites I think we would see and hear a much larger outcry than we do now. That is my opinion based on my own logical deductions of the observations I have made so far.

So now it is your turn.

More good than bad?


More bad than good?


  1. I don't know where to put this, but here seems relevant. :) On the 99% thread Judi said she knows of several units practicing unethically. My experience is the opposite. I know of several units working very ethically and I know of one unit in my geographic location that has an unethical director (I won't even say her entire unit is unethical; I just know that she is). How do I know? She offered my friend's customer a huge discount if she would leave her consultant and switch to her! Her offspring director became a director because she didn't agree with her business practices (doesn't sound too brainwashed to me). The offspring director preferred to join forces with my unit and several from our national area rather than collaborate with her own senior. They are from a different national area and also a different Seminar affiliation.
    How has this affected prospective team members? Well, I've had a few customers who told me they would love to rejoin MK (yes, they were former consultants), BUT they had previously been in this woman's unit. Because of her actions (constantly calling them to place orders) they were wary of Mary Kay as a whole. Many decided not to join for fear that every director is like her (*sigh*). For that one director in this geographic location (I say that because "area" suggests we're in the same national area and we are not--you see how I don't even want to smear my national area with the bad egg?) I could name 10 that I know of personally who do not operate the way she does. To the people whose experience she damaged, she IS the MK way. See what first impressions do? I don't think she is in any way the majority of MK directors. She could be an example of the majority of directors in her national area, however. I think the NSD has a lot to do with how the directors turn out. It's a trickle down effect.
    Each national area in MK is basically its own corporation per say. The corruption isn't in Mary Kay, Inc. The corruption is in individuals who found a way to move up in the ranks using unethical practices. Since we lead by example in this business, this type of behavior can easily perpetuate itself, but not necessarily in all of MK Land. I think the NSD's have a lot of influence on how their directors operate. The directors in my national area are very focused on FACES and SALES. So are the directors in my NSD's senior's area. So maybe the question is: are there more good NSD's than bad? I honestly don't know. I don't even know if a bad NSD or good NSD necessarily makes the difference. I mean, the unethical director I know had a very ethical offspring. Who's to say she doesn't have other ethical offspring or unit members? Since a lot of people quit MK to get away from her, my guess would be they wanted to do MK the right way, but were not getting the mentoring they needed to do so.
    I DO know that I am very grateful I have the director I have and that I am in the national area I am in. I've met my NSD a few times and she is a genuinely good, nice woman. Are there bad directors in my national area? Honestly, I don't know. There could be, but I've not met one.

  2. GOOD MORNING!!! I believe that you have good and bad in anything. You know I know that tc would love to see MKC fall to the ground and crumble. I have to ask why? I know that there are many in MK making money and there are some that say they are making money and are not. I think that if you tell the TRUTH, that it takes time to build and it takes time to move up. Like I have said before anything worth having is worth working hard for. This is like anyother business you have to work it to make it work.

    As for people being dishonest this happens in any business. If you have someone who is unethical before they start MK guess what they are probably going to be that way after they get in. I don't understand why it is so important to people that say that they are done with MK. Why do they keep on and on. Why don't they just let it go and move on to something. You know my opinion if they would have worked as hard in MK as they do in bashing MK they might have made some money.

    In life you have to take the good and the bad. It is not someone else responsibility to make it good for you or bad for you. We as a nation and I don't even know when this started we want to blame everyone else we don't want to take responsibility for anything.

    When you start MK you start a business. Some people are not ready or don't know how to run a business. In my hair salon if I let all the bad to affect me and let me tell you that there are some in this business that would you like to see you go under, I would have been out of business a long time ago. This good and bad thing is not just in MK it is in any business that there is. People are mean they don't won't others to make it. I however am not like that. I want the free trade I don't big brother in my business more than he already is.

    With my MK it is a big tax write off for me. Do I make money yes a little. If I worked it more I would make more. Like I have said before at this present moment I don't have time to work it more.

    Again I think that everyone should take responsibility for their own actions. If you are in a bad unit then change. If you don't like your director then change. If you don't like it then get OUT! Stop complaining and do something different. MK is not for everyone, running your own business is not for everyone however you have to make that decision. What I don't understand is that some say my director made me order all this. Is your director your mommma NO, you have the right to tell her NO I don't feel comfortable doing that and if pressures just tell her NO again and that it is your business and that you will run it the way that you see fit.

    And if for some reason you get in with bad people and life hands you a lemon make some lemonaide and move on. No one is stopping anyone from doing anything. We have to make our own decision and we have to take responsibility for our own actions.

    I will say this to stop whinning about it and either do it or get out. Just because some are unethical doesn't mean that all are. For those that are it will catch up with them sometime. I have not had to many bad things. I know that they happen and I know that they can happen I chose to rise above that and not be part of it. The choice is yours.

    I hope that everyone has a GREAT DAY.

  3. So those of us who had a bad experience should just shut up and not tell our side? Should we not warn others? Should we just ignore what we still see happening and look the other way? Many here say they know that there are unethical ones, not many, but a couple. That they will get what is coming to them. Do we just stand back and watch, or do we voice what has happened to us? I just don't get how anyone can say to just move on and stop whining. What about those that are going through exactly what we did. Do they not need their feelings validated? Don't they need to know they weren't the only one taken advantage of. Or is it better to yell at them that no one held a gun to their head? That your director is not your MOMMA. Some of these women were TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Yes, they have to accept responsibility for their actions. Believe me, they are. And the price is high.

    I think it is wonderful that there are pro MK sites. I think it is wonderful that there are anti MK sites. I wish we had a balanced MK site whre both sides could voice their experiences. Where someone could say "I had this terrible experience. This is what happened to me." And that be the end of it. But then what do we hear? "OK. You voiced your opinion. Now shut up and move on."

  4. Judi,
    having your feelings validated and moving on are sort of the same thing. Once you have your feelings validated, it can allow you to move on.
    The problem is that many on PT have been validated over and over again, yet they still feel the need to bash, whine and complain about a company that they left years ago. When one does that they are beyond validation. They are still holding on for some reason and PT does not facilitate them moving on like they should.That is why I dont like that blog. The environment on that blog keeps them in a perpetual state of self pity and "poor pitiful me" mentality. They get to blame everyone else except themselves. When that happens they cant move on. I think that is what Pink Bren is talking about. In my view Tracy wants it that way so she can always have folks on her blog. If everyone moved on after a few "ventings", she wouldnt have much of a blog.

    What has always bothered me is the double standard that PT and other antimkers have when it comes to being "validated". Those that have had bad experiences continue to fight for their right to have their experiences validated but refuse to offer that same validation to us. Our good experiences are just as true as your bad ones. Many of us have written over and over again about how mary kay should be done, and how it is working for us and how we are NOT unethical and that we know many other directors who are not unethical, but even your comments Judi many times reflect that you just dont see how it can be true.

    In other words, we know and believe your experience and we all know the cause of it. But you still seem skeptical about our good ones.
    So where is OUR validation?
    It stands to reason Judi, that if you had been taught to do Mary Kay the right way, you would have had a different experience. The company business model is not the problem, in your case it was your director. As in many cases. You and many others have been and are being trained WRONG. There is just no other way to put it. She was obviously trained wrong as well.

    Now whether there is more bad than good or vise versa, who knows? If you had a bad experience it could have been for a number of reasons. Just as a good experience could have been for a number of reasons.

    I know of a director in our town who is unethical in my view. Just as in shades example, she is an "order hound" and pushes her team members away from her because of the way she operates. But there are at least 5 others who don't operate that way. But even this cannot be an acceptable "sample" of all the consultants in the world in order to make an educated conclusion. Just as Judi's example of the consultants she knows in different parts of the county operating unethically is not enough to make a conclusion about the amount of directors behaving badly.

    Your experience is just that, an experience and it will be different for everyone. That is why sites that focus only on one side are so untruthful.

  5. Judi -

    If I were in your position, I would certainly caution others about inventory choices, not letting a director place your order for you, etc., because you have had a negative experience with that. IMHO, the initial inventory purchse is the one purchase that I can see would need to be cautioned against, and not so much ordering each month if you don't need product (because I personally feel like that is the reps fault for not using common sense. JMHO)

    Please don't get upset with me for saying this, but I have to say that since you have 1) re-signed with MK and 2) signed with the same person (if I remember correctly - correct me if I am wrong), then it leads me to believe that your experience with MK was not horrible by any means.

    Since you can be sponsored by anyone in MK (anywhere in the US), then surely you could have found another sponsor for your MK biz.

    Yes, I know you are not ordering much (as I believe you said before) and that your sponsor would not profit much from you (again, as I remember you saying), I would think that any dime a dishonest person made off of me would be a dime too much.

    I believe that David does a great job on this blog. He DOES allow differing opinions on this blog (unlike pt).

    However, saying over and over how you had a terrible experience is simply not productive, especially when you have not taken steps to remove yourself from the unscrupulous sponsor you keep complaining about.

    Sorry so cranky. Not enough coffee today.

    David - hope I haven't stepped over the line with this post. If I have, please feel free to delete.

  6. I do feel validated. I do. That's done. My first week reading PT did that for me. Now I continue to tell my experience so others know what to look for if they want to embark on an MK career. I know my director did not tell me the pitfalls. So I tell whoever wants to hear.

    It's moved on from just being validated to trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. That is where I like PT. Yes, they exagerate. Yes, they are childish. But you cannot read those stories and think that it is all made up. So I think it does some good for those looking at starting on the MK journey.

    I do not know TC. I have read about some of the things some say she has done. But I don't know the people making accusations. And I do not believe all I read on the internet. Just as I know nothing about David Shepard. But here I am.

    As to why I signed up under the same person. Believe me, this woman is not making anything off of me. She HATES the returns I do. So she has asked me to exchange them with her. So she actually loses money. Why she wants to do that, I do not know. Crazy comes to mind. I think she thinks she is saving face with MKC.

    My experience with MK was horrible. No two ways about it. Ordering for PU and ordering to sell are very different. It is not the product that I have a problem with. I also do not have a problem with MKC making money. So resigning to order at cost makes sense to me. And exchanging thru my director makes sense, too. I am not losing anything. And there are other reasons why I stayed with her. They are no one's business but my own and they make sense to me.

  7. Judi, sorry for ganging up on you but:

    Yes, you do have the right to relate your experience as a warning to others. What I have the beef with is the constant allegation that unethical behaviour is pervasive by a significant number or even a majority of people in leadership positions within the sales force. Further, the allegations that the unethical activities are known, condoned and "winked at" by MK, Inc because it both improves the bottom line and provides good press as people move up the ladder.

    As I stated on the 99% thread, there was not a single person, either from Pink Truth or a current director, standing on the sidewalk in front of the George Brown Conv Ctr in Houston last week with a placard stating that "MK screwed me". Nor did I see a single Pink Truth business card. Not in the parking lots, on the sidewalk, in the Men's restroom, or on my wife's pink SRX. Where was the dissatisfaction? I know, the directors at Leadership are all "in on the game", so it was really a convention and celebration of people who were all out to defraud their units.

    Ladies, if you KNOW (firsthand, not through heresay) of a consultant or director who is violating Legal-Ease it is your responsibility to report that person and their actions to MK Legal. There are people in the world who cannot report terrorists in their midst because of the fear of getting murdered, but you don't have that kind of sword hanging over your head.

    Is asking for orders at the end of the month, for finishing/making car production, half-million, circle of excellence, etc, unethical? Personally, I say no. (Placing an order using a consultant's credit car wihout her permission definitely is.) However, begging for orders is stupid and will come back to bite the car driver or director. Her team/unit will not be ordering the following month(s), and there will be an increase in chargebacks. (see my comment over on Duh's site regarding the recruiter who wants her team member (and also her sister) to pay her $200 for the chargeback.)

    Encouraging people to be a star consultant without teaching them how to sell what's on their shelves leads to short term results and long term problems. Consultants will note that last quarter's sapphire-star Suzy doesn't come to meetings anymore. They may even be getting calls from Suzy asking to do trades for new items or trying to get rid of limited edition items.

    That said, there will be consultants who come into this business with dollar signs in their eyes. They may even attend training, weekly meetings, observe SCC's, etc, but they just never get going. Who's fault is that? I've seen several consultants who either can't "find the time", constantly plan their success but never start doing anything, are so uncertain of themselves (or are perfectionists) that they want to make sure that they have learned everything before making their 1st appt, or have husbands/boyfriends/parents who are passive-aggressively doing everything they can to not help or purposefully sabotage their wife (such as "forgetting" to give her phone messages). There are also tons of consultants who receive their starter kit and do nothing, not even return their director's phone calls or emails.

    One of the key themes are this year's Leadersip Conf was that it takes discipline to achieve your goals. Every day, there are thousands, perhaps millions of kids who want to be the next Maria Sharparova or Tiger Woods or Miss America. Some even have parents who will spend tons of money on them. But the child who becomes the new golf star of 2030 will be the one who takes takes it to heart and applies him or herself diligently, even obsessively, to the goal.

    Mary Kay is no different. As I'm sure MK4ME will attest, there are lots of consultants who will raise their hands when asked "who wants to be a director", just as there were lots of directors standing up at Leadership when asked who is going to be driving a Cadillac or be on the Munich trip this year. As the position gets higher and the requirements get bigger/tougher, the number of people who make the grade gets smaller. The difference between MK and the PGA is that there is no limit to the number of players on tour. There is no "cut".

  8. Judi, you suggested that co-op for cars be eliminated and previously suggested that it is unethical for a director to not tell her unit that she is paying co-op.

    I disagree. A director does not have to take the car. She can take cash. She can even not take a Cadillac, but take the Saturn Aura or Vue. A director has the choice of not paying co-op. She can turn the car in. I'm not saying that doing so is easy on the psyche. Some directors will not do it because they do not want their unit members to feel that they have failed their director. (It's not. Responsibility for unit production lies with the director, not the individual unit members.) Some directors will not lose the car because of their own feelings of failure. Some directors have a short term drop in production for lots of other reasons, but know that they can and will recover.

    At Leadership, Katerina Harris, a NSD from the SF/Oakland area, related a story about how one year she had been featured on the car program Cadillac brochures. The following seminar, she was asked by a fellow director why she was not on stage for the Cadillac march. She told the person it was because she was no longer in a Cadillac. How easy would it have been for her to have snuck into the line of directors and crossed the stage anyway?

    Administering the car program with no co-op program would be hugely uneconomical. Cars would be picked up and delivered quarterly. Cars previously picked up would have to be re-issued used to other directors. The car program would probably be reduced to using the cheapest, lowest option level cars (kind of like rental cars). In order to make cars stand out, the company would have to allow the magnetic door signs and huge window lettering displays that you see by realtors, Avon, Advocare, Herbalife, Mangosteen and pest control companies. Tacky, tacky, tacky.

  9. So you think it is alright for a person to not make production, to keep the car and make co pays on it, to not tell their unit, and let the unit assume that all is well? How is that in the best interest of the unit? How is that not buying recognition? And this is certainly something that MKC knows about. They know if someone is paying for that car. And I don't mean miss production for a month. Things happen. But for many months in a row? Again, how is that not buying recognition? And why would MKC allow someone to do that? Driving that company car should be a priviledge for a job well done.

    As for the picketing. Was that directed at me? I am by no means affiliated with PT. Just as I don't like to be hounded in the parking lot of Target for looking "Sharp!" I would never hound someone on my views of MK. My views are out here and if someone is looking they can find them. I don't hunt people down.

    And as for your beef with unethical behavior being winked at by MKC. I don't think they are winking, per se. I think they would have to be blind not to see some of this mess. And I can't prove that statement just like you can't prove yours so we are moot on that point.

    And I am used to being ganged up on. It's OK. I don't know anyone here personally so it's nearly impossible to take anything said personally. Until David bans me I will tell my side.

    And I love hearing both sides, too. Especially from a husband. My husband was very supportive. He even came with me to SCC every so often. It's nice to hear a husband's side. I wish there were more.

  10. Judi says,
    "I wish we had a balanced MK site whre both sides could voice their experiences. Where someone could say "I had this terrible experience. This is what happened to me." And that be the end of it."

    Actually Judi there have been some who have visited this site and have stated what happened to them and that was "the end of it". I for one appreciated the comments and said so. There were two posters who told about how horrible their experiences were and as far as I know they recieved no backlash. The reason it was "the end of it" is because I remember that they each owned their experience and did not try to speak for all the other consultants in the world like some antimkers do.

    I too wish someone could say, "I had a bad experience" and that be the end of it. But TOO MANY times we hear those that are complaining make genralizations that EVERYONE or at least the MAJORITY of consultants are having the same bad experience. That is what bothers me, not that someone reports a bad experience, but the attempts to convince others that all experiences will be bad.

    I think everybody deserves to tell what happended to them. Even warn others about what to look out for. That is productive. What is UNproductive is continuing to whine and complain and make generalizations. What is UNproductive is not giving others the benefit of considering that the good experience may be just as true as a bad one. What is UNproductive is not looking at what each person may have done or not done to contribute to why their experience came out the way it did.

    Each person will gravitate to what is most like thier experience. There is no way to know who is really telling the whole truth on any of these blogs. We can only go by what we have all been through on our own.

  11. this discussion could go on forever. I will do my part by continuing to set the best example I can as doing the things the right way.

    As for coop payments, you can only make them max for 1 1/2 yrs.. It takes six months to qualify for the car and then in two years you must requalify. So you would only be able to "fake it, til you make it" for a short period of time, not indefinetely because if you didn't requalify, you wouldn't have the car to make a coop payment on. If you didn't qualify, you wouldn't have it to make coop payments on, so it isn't the issue of you didn't earn it... or if you miss production over and over and over, you are going to be able to keep it. - I believe if a director went to a unit and said we are endanger of loosing the Cadillac (or car), you would have loving unit members order unnecessarily to help the director keep the car. To me, this would be unfair to the consultant. This would generate unneeded product. I do believe, the director could encourage the unit with SELLI
    NG challenges, Booking Challenges, Class challenges, to generate production, I do not believe it would be right to "guilt" the consultants to order without the work. IMHO, an (ethical) director should be very cautious if production is iffy=and she chooses to share this information to the unit. I could see how this could very easily cross the line to manipulating orders.

    this is said kindly, judi, you said you feel your director isn't making anything off of you so it didn't matter... will you look at things from a promker's point of view? We all agree it sounds like your director has done very wrong things, (sorry, I don't feel she is ignorant or in the "pink fog" with all you have reported) I believe (inmho) she is a very manipulative and selfish person. Even if you only do a $200 she will receive 4 - 13 % or that as your recruiter, and also 9 - 13% of that as your director. And once again imho, you validated her as a "good" director by resigning under her. It seems to be, that you would have made a much stronger statement signing under someone that you found to be ethical, not associated with the director who is not doing things the right way. When asked why, your response would be my values do not line up with hers. The sort of guilty be association thing applies by signing back with her. Please understand, I am not saying you are, from reading I clearly understand you disagree with her tactics but it would not appear to anyone else because you reassociated yourself with her. You also gave her another unit member. As for not returning product to the Company for product exchanges, why she is so hung up on this is beyond any of us on this board. It makes zero sense.

    I know of one director that travels into our area, she doesn't work with the area directors because it would be very hard to recruit other consultant's guests if their consultant or director was in the room. I was once asked if I wanted to be a guest at one of her visits. I graciously declined. I will not align myself with someone who intentionally does things wrong. If I had started working with her and she continued her habits, others would assume I was guilty of the same behavior and I will not put my reputation on the line like that. I am respected for my honesty and sincerety and to me there is no pricetag to be put on that. To loose that respect would be the greatest loss of all. I will not sell out.

    Have I ever made a mistake? I am sure I have probably loads of them, have I ever had to sit back and look and make a decision that didn't benefit me, yes, but in the long run doing the right thing was, the "right" thing to do. Am I perfect, no far from it, but I will continue to lead by the best example I can and I have found that I have instilled the right way to run an MK business in hundreds of women, personal unit, adoptees, and area consultants. That is what makes me proud. I will speak out if I see wrong doing, I will try to abritrate a sticky situation between directors or consultants, but I can't fix everything. People that "want it so bad" will find a way to justify what they do.

    It is not for me to judge them and I must believe that when judging time comes, they will be judge accordingly. Monetary rewards and success in this world, will not preceed this world. They may get away with any type of behavior here and now because we don't have the MK police force however, most of us tend to be Christians and we believe our actions be it in Business or Personal life will be judged by our Maker.

    As far as business, some will make money, others won't, let's remember with all the business in the world, outside of Bill Gates and Donald Trump, I really can't think of any other names that jump out in my mind. So two among how many millions of Companies have had that type of success?? I don't think any Company is any different. There will always be a much smaller percentage at the top. Even animal colonies still have far more "workers" than leaders. And sorry it must be this insect but... there is only one queen bee, there all sorts of others though, drones, worker, and they all have their jobs to do. Without all types, the colony will have. All business are like this too. But you can't have more chiefs than indians.

    Live your life by example. I can only be the best me I can be and if others don't like it, who cares? I can look at myself in the mirror every night and feel good about my actions.

    Sorry for the long rambling post.

  12. "And there are other reasons why I stayed with her. They are no one's business but my own and they make sense to me."

    Then don't blame the rest of us when we scratch our heads and go "Huh?" about why you stayed with the same sponsor when you have made it quite well known how unethical you believe she has been.

  13. My post is long and rambling because I am feeling a little low. I am really missing leadership, where I would be if my son wasn't having surgery this week.

    Guess what, I am home where I should be. Told my National the hospital confirmed the surgery and I was going to have to cancel my registration -didn't get sh*t, she said to me, you know where you need to be, I joked and said "will you still be my national".... she replied, you will never have another national, unless you decide you want to be one yourself.

    I was looking forward to going but even if I had gone, hubby said go, it's really not a big deal (minor surgery) - I knew my heart and mind wouldn't be with me so I didn't go.

    I didn't get pushed or made to feel guilty, I have gotten messages from all who are missing me, I have not been "shunned". Actually, a few have given me "you are where you need to be's".

    But I am still feeling a little blue cuz I am not in Houston.

    mkhonesty, was it great?? My National is going to update me when they get back, we would be there now as we are Emerald.

  14. Judi, let's address your questions one at a time:

    So you think it is alright for a person to not make production, to keep the car and make co pays on it, to not tell their unit, and let the unit assume that all is well?
    -- "alright" (sorry, a vision of dancing gophers and insane groundskeepers just popped into my head.) No, it's not "alright". The director is losing money when looking at the one transaction (co-op). She may not be losing money in her business as a whole. Personally, I don't like to see a director paying 100% co-op for quarters at a time, (there's one I know of for sure in our NSD's area)but the director made that decision, not the company, and the director can get herself out of the situation. The director may have completed car production because she had one or 2 DIQ's who boosted her production. When that DIQ production was gone, either due to DIQs becoming directors or falling out of DIQ, then the production went down. IMO, the director should not have taken the car if she knew that her base unit production would not support it.

    How is that in the best interest of the unit?
    -- the fact is, it's not the problem of the individual unit members. Their performance is not directly dependent on whether their director has a car or not. A case can be made that performance can be influenced by seeing that car and having a goal to work toward, or conversely, becoming depressed because their director lost the car.

    How is that not buying recognition?
    -- Yes, it is, or at least it is buying the maintaining of recognition. Your view is that this is deceptive advertising of the MK business opportunity, giving false hopes to some of the unit members and prospects. The point is that they can earn that car and they don't have to be paying co-op because they are not required to do the same things as their director. Lots of people give hopes/dreams to others every day. A person sees a real estate agent driving around in a brand-new Lincoln Navigator, and thinks, "I could sell houses and have that car." The cynic thinks, "I bet she's got a huge car payment."

    And this is certainly something that MKC knows about. They know if someone is paying for that car. And I don't mean miss production for a month. Things happen. But for many months in a row?
    -- Sure they know. Again, it's not their responsibility. It's not a violation of the agreement or Legal-Ease. The company made the requirements for qualification and maintenance very clear. No question, it is to the company's advantage to have more cars on the road. It is no different from the local real estate board issuing a press release about how many houses were sold that month and neglecting to note that on average, 90% of the transactions are made by the top 10% of the agents in a given office.

    And why would MKC allow someone to do that? Driving that company car should be a priviledge for a job well done.
    -- It was a job well done. The director earned the car. The problem is with the director maintaining the car. (Nothing wilts faster than a laurel that has been rested on.)

    Let's say that a director chooses to take the cash instead of a car. A director could use that cash to purchase and make payments on a car. If the director fell below the requirements, her cash payments would decrease or disappear entirely. Now she would be paying some or all of her car payments from other sources of funds. She could sell the car, but she may be upside down on the loan, but she could not just turn the car back to the dealer or have it repossessed and be free of it because she still has the loan contract. If she leased the vehicle then there are almost-always mileage limitations on the vehicle, and again she has a leasing contract for a specifiec period of time.

    There is no free lunch. Mary Kay is not giving away free cars, despite the non-company approved bumper stickers that say, "I WON IT!". You may be saying, why didn't my director explain all of this to me when I signed my agreement. My answer (and probably my wife's) is that it's not a need-to-know for a brand-new consultant, or even a consultant with three team members. It is something to discuss with a Team Leader. Consultants need to be thinking about what they need to do to become a "master consultant" or to move to the next level, not what they need to do to move to a level several rungs above them. Only Superman leaps tall buildings in a single bound. The rest of us take the stairs.

    The point about picketing was not directed at you. It was directed at anyone who claims that there are "millions of women" who have been abused by MK, the MK opportunity, or by the sales force leadership. You would think that if there were millions of disgrunted women out there, at least one would bother to show up and get her face in the newspaper. My wife has had exactly one consultant tell her that she was deceived, and it was a sister of an out-of-town recruit's recruit. The sister signed her agreement without any discussion with my wife, and the first time my wife knew about her was the email from the company saying that she had a new unit member. My wife mailed out her standard welcome packet, and that's when the sister got pissed off. Seems that the recruiter portrayed the MK opportunity like Sam's Club, where you pay a membership fee and then get to buy things at a discount. The sister thought that she was buying into a get-your-makeup-at-50%-off deal. (By the way, the recriter is no longer in the company.)

  15. I do not believe it to be wrong or unethical for a director to make co-op payments on her car when the unit production is not met.

    Why would it be wrong or unethical? That just makes no sense to me. It's an option that is provided. MKHonesty made good points regarding the administration of the car program. It sounds like good business practices to me.

    Why should the director tell the unit that the unit production was not met and she made a co-op payment? That's the director's decision and I don't believe it's anyone else's business. It's her own financial and busines decision.

    As for the unit not knowing all is not well:

    1. Just because a co-op payment is made, does not mean that all is not well.

    2. If co-op payments are made a lot throughout the year, it becomes obvious to any who care to do the simple math that the director is making co-op payments. Example: Cadillac director who did not make the $300,000 unit club. Uh, obviously she's made a few co-op payments. IMO, who what? It's her choice.

  16. "So you think it is alright for a person to not make production, to keep the car and make co pays on it, to not tell their unit, and let the unit assume that all is well? How is that in the best interest of the unit?"

    MK4ME did a great job about the co-op payments, so I won't rehash what she said, but I just wanted to add:

    How would a Director tell the unit and then handle the fact that people will

    1) accuse her of trying to get people to order unneccesarily

    2) order to try to "help her out"

    3) possibly return inventory they really did not need, thus hurting production down the road.

    Seems to me like she is in between a rock and a hard place. If she keeps quiet, she is "hiding" something from the Unit. If she tells the Unit, she is encouraging overstocking inventory.

  17. MKShay, I do not care if you scratch your head and go "huh". And you can ask anything you want. If it is too personal, I may not answer, or my answer may not be to your satisfaction. Are you even a consultant? And if you are, how long have you been one? I have not heard that much about your experience in MK. There are reasons why I stayed with this same person. She is not making any money off of me. I would not put any money in her pocket. The reasons are my own and I do not wish to share all of them. Sufice it to say they are personal and don't have a lot to do with MK. That shouldn't detract from my experience and those of others.

  18. Judi -

    My point is that it is confusing to those who read about how unethical your sponsor was (and you have been quite vocal about that) and yet you signed with her again.

    By having your reasons that you feel are personal and you don't want to share, that's fine. It is hard to understand what kind of reasons can justify staying with an "unethical" sponsor, but that's just me.

    I have told my story here before. I am a former consultant who is re-signing in Feb. :o)

  19. MKHonesty wrote, "There is no free lunch. Mary Kay is not giving away free cars, despite the non-company approved bumper stickers that say, "I WON IT!". You may be saying, why didn't my director explain all of this to me when I signed my agreement."

    More good points from MKHonesty.

    This is something that is constantly gone on and on about by the anti-mkers and just frosts my cookies. - "No body told me that"; "why wasn't I told"; "I was deceived because I wasn't told".

    Good grief.

    It is impossible, yes impossible, for a recruiter to tell a new recruit everything. Even if she did manage to pull off the impossible and remember to tell the new recruit (or prospective recruit) everything, there is no way the new person is going to be able to remember everything she was told.

    And besides, (can you guess what's coming?) it's on InTouch. (Don't even start on the old excuse that not everyone has access to the internet. Most do. Certainly those reading these blogs do indeed have access to the internet.)

  20. judi, this was in my too long rambling post but did you see this, I was trying to explain why we are all asking (not for your personal reasons) we are confused.

    this is said kindly, judi, you said you feel your director isn't making anything off of you so it didn't matter... will you look at things from a promker's point of view? We all agree it sounds like your director has done very wrong things, (sorry, I don't feel she is ignorant or in the "pink fog" with all you have reported) I believe (inmho) she is a very manipulative and selfish person. **I may be really wrong) Even if you only do a $200 she will receive 4 - 13 % or that as your recruiter, and also 9 - 13% of that as your director. And once again imho, you validated her as a "good" director by resigning under her. It seems to be, that you would have made a much stronger statement signing under someone that you found to be ethical, not associated with the director who is not doing things the right way. When asked why, your response would be my values do not line up with hers. The sort of guilty be association thing applies by signing back with her. Please understand, I am not saying you are, from reading I clearly understand you disagree with her tactics but it would not appear to anyone else because you reassociated yourself with her. You also gave her another unit member. As for not returning product to the Company for product exchanges, why she is so hung up on this is beyond any of us on this board. It makes zero sense. (zero sense in her not wanting you to use product replacement)- not everything else.

    PS Judi, thank you for continuing to discuss, it may help loads on the fence see the two sides.

  21. Yes, Judi, your director/recruiter IS making money off you. Anywhere from 4% to 26% percent, as MK4Me explained.

    Product exchanges do not lower that commission at all. There are no chargebacks for product exchanges. There are no penalties to the director or recruiter for product exchanges.

  22. a little off topic, could you imagine how long an interview would take if you tried explaining in detail to a potential, from the starter kit, inventory, senior consultant, red jacket, team leader, car qualifications and maintenance, director quals and maintenance, egads, it would take a month of Sundays.

    It isn't much different -a new consultant is a kindergartener and you learn as you go thru school..
    If a consultant doesn't want car or directorship, there really is not a reason for her to know what it takes. At lease not until after she learns how to do a skin car class and handle her finances, no can only learns so much at one time.

    And stealing Rebecca's famous saying, "everything is on intouch"!

    Rebecca, you will always be famouse for that line!!

  23. Why, thank you, MK4Me!

  24. This will be my final comment on my current director. And I use the title director very loosely. No one in real life knows I have resigned under her, so there is no confusion about realigning with someone unethical. There is more to my relationship with this woman than MK. But she is not making anything off of me.

    I still think the car situation is misleading. When I was recruited my director showed me her car and told me how well you have to do to get that car. She did not mention that you could pay for the car yourself for a year and a half. So I thought she was successful. She told me she was. She showed me her car. Then I find out she has made more co pays than not. If I would have known she was misleading me on that I would have looked closer at everything else she told me. So when a consultant pays for their own car, it's misleading any way you look at it if her unit does not know.

  25. Judi you dont have to say anything you dont want to. You dont owe any of us an explanation, but you cant blame us for wondering. Afterall YOU are the one who put your directors behavior out their for all of us to see. YOU were the one who based you "horrible" MK experience on the things that she did or did not tell you. So of course it makes you seem inconsistant when you go and sign back up under the same woman who did not train you the way you should have been trained and who also left this bad taste in your mouth about all things MK.

    Its as if now you are backpeddling. But hey, that your business right?
    I will say that it is your inconsistancy and contradictions in many of your stories that make me wonder about the validity of your "horrible" MK experience.

    I know that you dont really care about what any of us out here in blog land think, so I wont assume that I am stepping on your toes here, but you really cant blame us for asking, can you?

    You went out of your way to explain that your director used religion against you, lied to you about the time needed to invest in this business, lied about how much she was making, misued your credit card for your first inventory etc..She just about committed every sin known that an unethical director can do.

    All of us begged you not to sign back up under her, at least I did. We were all surprised that you signed back up at least I was. But you say it was not to sell but only to facilitate product returns. But at the same time you continue to ask questions about how to sell, book etc..yet another contradiction. I have always wondered why someone who was not interested in selling would need to know those things, but oh well..

    Part of me believes that you really want to be a consultant but are too ashamed to admit it, or maybe afraid to put your all into it due to being afraid of failing.

    Then part of me thinks that it really wasnt as bad as you want us to believe, or why else would you sign back up under what seems like the worst diretor in MK.

    But you say you have your reasons so that will have to be good enough I guess.
    But the statement, "she is not making any money off of me" makes no sense, unless you never plan to order anything ever again and as long as you both remain active she will eventually make some money off of you. I have been in MK 10 years and I just dont know how you come to some of the conclusions that you come to, unless you are not telling everything, or your lack of training makes you draw the wrong conclusions.

  26. The topic of this post is "More good than bad OR more bad than good?" So I think this is actually right on topic.

    So many of the bad experiences could have been avoided, WOULD have been avoided, if the person experiencing the bad experience had the correct information.

    So how does a person get the correct information? By relying on another person to verbally relay it to her? By reading appropriate documentation herself? By reading blogs?

    It constantly amazes me that so many of the things people complain about are explained on InTouch. But clearly the complainer had not read the information on InTouch.

    A glaring example: The 90% buyback product return. How often have we read on anti-MK sites how they are oh-so-thankful to find out how to return their product; how the just sing the praises of PT, or PLH, for providing this information. But all along, Ah-hem, (drum roll, please.....)


    With a phone number, too! So you can talk to a real live person. Wow.

    Expenses are also on InTouch.
    All the info on the car qualifications, and co-op payments. Even the schedule of how much.
    Money management and time management.

    It's all there on InTouch.

    Having read many many "bad experiences" on the internet over the past 2+ years, I find myself asking myself, WHY did they have these bad experiences when all that information they said they wanted, needed, but weren't told, is right there on InTouch? Hmmmm?

    And then we have personality differences; different opinions; imperfect people; suckers and scam artists; and just the very simple fact that different people will have different ways of doing things.

    Some people hate the color pink, some people love the color pink, some people just don't care. The color pink is not bad. It's just a color. A choice.

    People are different. I wish we could celebrate the differences and enjoy the differences. Instead we somehow manage to figure out a way to make the differences a bad thing. (Disclaimer: I mean specifically the differences within doing this MK business.)

    So, is something really a bad thing, is it really unethical? Or is it simply the differences in people?

  27. Most of the lies told to me were told before I signed up. They ask the questions to find out your hot buttons. You want to be a SAHM? This is the script that works best on her. You ask if this is something that realistically a normal person with no sales experience can do. Oh, yes. Girl, you are so sharp! And we are the #1 best selling brand. Of all the millionaire women we have the most (don't remember exactly what that one is, but it is something about women millionaires). You can do this! Our business plan is taught at Harvard University so you know it is a sound plan. Say your prayers tonight and if you dream pink you are meant to do this. So you think about it. You decide to sign. It's only a hundred bucks. You spend more than that at WalMart!! Then you are told you need to have inventory. Can't sell from an empty wagon! And if you do it this month then you get all kinds of free product to sell at retail! You CANNOT pass it up! And if you think your husband would be upset about you spending literally thousand of dollars, don't tell him! It's easier to ask forgiveness than to beg for permission. And THEN you are able to log on to InTouch. After you are mislead. After you are lied to. After you are used. Then you read InTouch.

    This was my experience. This is not everyone's. It may not be yours. But it was mine. And it was many others'. So please do not tell me that I should have read InTouch when it is not available to the public.

  28. And yet you signed up a second time with the very same person who had already lied to you and mislead you.

    And I wrote that "many" of the bad experiences could have been avoided, I did not write "all". Nor did I write "yours".

  29. foreverpink, I ask the selling questions for those who are looking into starting this business. I am not selling it. I did that. It was not worth it for me. I can't see how it would be worth it to do it again. I have another job which fulfills all my needs. But I do love the product so I buy it wholesale, as I have done all my adult life. But when I was starting out and trying to get those first few SCC to book from, I was having the hardest time getting them. And I couldn't find anyone to help me. Everyone else i knew was getting referals thru family and friends and i did not want to go that route. So that is why I ask. So if there is someone out there who doesn't know, can learn. It's not for me.

    It's hard to get across in words only, no facial expressions, etc., exactly what we mean sometimes. So our intent can get twisted when we are only reading something on blogs. We don't hear tone, so it can be hard to know exactly what a person is saying. Sometimes I feel like some of you are yelling at me! But I know no one is. It's frustration, probably. MK is wonderful, dammit!! If you've only had a good experience it must be hard to come up against someone like me who has only had the negative, and vice versa. I wish I could have had MK4ME as a director. Or MKHonesty's wife. From what I have read, they've both been honest about the opportunity. My outlook may have been more realistic.

  30. Once again Judi
    As long as your director (or who ever she is) remains active and as long as you remain active, if you EVER order anything while the both of you are active, she WILL make some money off of you.

    Now like I said, unless you are not telling everything ( and it is clear that you are not)and unless you yourself are doing something unethical and unless you NEVER plan on ordering while you are both active, you can best believe she will get something from your activity.

    Your latest comment makes me cringe, because it SCREAMS how misinformed you were about this business. Here we all are trying to tell you how things are done about car production and you still speak about if it was something that is purposfully kept from consultants.

    So what if a director ends up paying co payments, she still "earned" the use of it in the first place.

    Like someone else has said, when a consultant first signs up, trying to tell her everything may just serve to confuse her instead of help her. Learing about the details of car production can come when someone decides they want to go for one. Not as soon as they sign their agreement. I would not have understood all of that anyway on my first day. And the same goes for directorship and everything else.

    Every complaint that you seem to have, stems from you being misimformed. It seems that you sometimes dont know what you are talking about. For instance how could you possibly think that your recruiter would not benefit from you signing up. The things you think are facts are not facts, but mostly the product of you not being trained correctly. And who's fault is that?

  31. True, InTouch is not available to the public. However, is available to the public. There is a great deal of information there.

    Also true is that one must be a consultant in order to do product exchanges. Therefore one must order at least $200 w/s in a year to be a consultant to do product exchanges. Therefore, yes, Judi, your director/recruiter DOES make money off you. Not a lot, but some.

    Now, on that Harvard thing. The truth of the matter is, MK was used (can be used?) as a case study by students at Harvard.

    Mary Kay "taught" at Harvard


    Mary Kay used as a "case study" at Harvard.

    How many people really understand the difference? I sure didn't! Not at first. MK, Inc., always had in print the "case study" part so MK, Inc. stated it correctly.

    The problem arose when members of the sales force incorrectly repeated this phrase. Were these people REALLY trying to lie, or even mislead anyone? Or did they simply not understand the difference one word can make?

    Which causes me to point out the importance that we, the sales force, make sure that we repeat what the company has in print EXACTLY as it is in print.

    This is a responsibility that I feel is of vital importance for all the sales force to take seriously.

    However, I can't control the actions of another. So, like
    MK4Me, I must make sure that I set the best example that I can.

  32. Well, since I am the one that said people need to quit whinning and move on I mean it. If you want to tell your bad experience then tell it and let it go. I don't understand why people want to hang on to something that is painful for them. I just don't understand that. If you want to warn people then warn them it is no skin off my nose. I know what I know about MK and I like it. I haven't had the bad experience that others have had and I don't plan on it. I am a business women before MK and I will be one after if I chose to stop.

    People on pt talk out of both sides of their mouths. I wonder how many are really returning their product from the BIG MEAN MK CORPORATION, or how many just want to go there and rant and rave so that they can get I don't even not what they want to get. I say suck it up and move on if you don't like it.

    We all have things that don't work out however why in the world would you want to continue in something that one finds so unethical, Just let it go. That is all's I am saying.

    About the car thing that is the director or whoevers choice to make the co pay if they are not making the production. I know that some keep asking let me see what you make. Well, it is really no ones business what I make. I am pretty forth coming though. That is a personal thing and if someone choses to show it then so be it. I don't think it be a requirement to show it. I can tell you in my hair salon if someone wanted to know what I am I would tell them it is really none of their business. And it isn't.

    Again I will say that there is good and bad in everything. I am sure that there is good and bad with Bill Gates and with Trump they were mention. Ask some of their former employees and I am sure they will not all tell of the great love they have for them.

    And I will say it again if it was so bad let it go and move on. Tell your story and tell it to as many that will listen but you will eventually have to move on. If you are living in the past then you are missing the present.

    And remember it is all on INTOUCH.

    Have a GREAT DAY

  33. judi,
    most "realistic" pro mkers have not "only had good experiences". I for one have had both, good and bad, but I had adequate training so that I knew how to put the bad in perspective. I was informed about what to expect from this business. I have been in too long to not have experienced some bad along the way. Its not about us only experiencing good things with Mary Kay, that is not realistic. None of us have ever said that we only experienced good things.

    The difference is that I was trained by someone who was ethical. It also helped that I was trained by someone who was trained by someone who sat at Mary kay's feet. There was no mistaking how this business was to be run.

    By the same token all of your experiences could not have been bad or else you would not have signed back up. If nothing else your experience with the product was good, you said so yourself.

    Your MK experience makes me think of someone trying to cook a dish with only half the recipe. You may end up with something edible, but it wont be as good as it could have been had you had the right recipe. The problem is you dont know that you dont have the complete recipe and you think that everyone makes the dish the same way you do. You just keep making the same dish with the same bad recipe, wondering why your dish is coming out wrong or not as good as someone elses. As a result you quit trying to cook because you cant ever get your recipe right.

    But its not until you start talking to other cooks who have been successful at making that dish, that you realize that your may have been given the wrong recipe in the first place. Your dish cant possibly come out right if you are not given the complete recipe.

    It stands to reason that if you had the right set of ingredients and a complete receipe your dish would turn out better and get better each time you made it. You could even add your own touch to it as long as it did not stray from the original.

    I figure if we can stomach the analogies Blessed used to make us sit through, than we can see the similarities in this one.

    Maybe one day you will give "selling" another try. Maybe not, but until then you have got to understand that it is not always the business plan, or some strategic move on the part of corporate to keep everyone in the dark about things. Some of our bad experiences are a result of being trained wrong (given incomplete recipes) or just the nature of business itself. But to think that everyone is doing it that way is wrong.
    Like Rebecca says, EVERYTHING is on intouch. PT is not bringing anything to light, there are no secrets. Even if everyone does not have internet in their home, they can go to the public library and use a computer, they can go to a friends house, they can go to a sister consultants house, or the local college, or their kids school, etc... NO Excuse for not reading intouch.
    David forgive me for going off topic, but I just got carried away.

  34. It really hurts me to see some of the comments that are made here regarding being disillusioned and bad directors. I DO understand it and I DO sympathize with Judi. The ONE thing I DONT agree with is the fact that (and I know the directors on this board will agree) with the consultants who LIE and say they were not told this and that. Many things are learned from experience and the fact that a consultant has never held a skin care class and she says that her director didnt help her!!!????? I would be willing to agree with some of the negative statements that were made if some of the consultants had worked (Judi this does not apply to you I believe what you say because you back up your statements with facts)
    I saw on one board a long time ago how 3 directors were upset that consultants borrowed product and never paid the director back, and how they were promised this and that by their consultants and never came through. I FEEL for the directors too!!! They go through a lot like the consultants and more pressure (car production, chargebacks, etc) which works on the psyche of a director even more.
    I would rather have the dissapointments of a consultant more than a director, more success, more problems but a greater return monetarily if you are willing to take the responsibility.

  35. MK Honesty said
    ,, Some directors will not do it because they do not want their unit members to feel that they have failed their director. (It's not. Responsibility for unit production lies with the director, not the individual unit members.) >>>

    MK Honesty I never thought I would disagree with you...LOL Its hard for me to believe that the success of the unit (production) lies with the director. She is depending on those orders and there are a lot of mitigating factors that have to do with this (how many people are ordering, the moods of the consultant, the economy (however you feel about that) how far behind she is in production. I think if she is a good leader and always has decent production and hits a roadblock its not the fault of the director it good be just timing. Unless you are coming from the angle that the director is not constantly recruiting or holding classes. Sometimes you can work the numbers and it just doesnt work. No its not the fault of the director I agree but it will fall back on HER or HIM because they represent the unit. I had a bad year when I sold lab equipment and made the same number of cold calls I always did and just had a bad year and I dont think it was my fault. Feel free to rebuttle, I always agree with you but in this case I dont. Since you are active your wife's career Im sure you know more than I do and if you can enlighten me please do I love your opinions they are backed up with facts.

  36. Directed to MK the way thanks for letting us know that Caterina Harris didnt do the Caddie March, very ethical of her.
    I think I would have been tempted to do the march she is a top director (now NSD) and Im sure that would have been hard for her to make that should I or shouldnt I march decision. She is an example of someone who has always been in the caddie and now she missed it and is an NSD and YES she has lot directors too. She professes to be a Christian and her actions here prove that she did the honest and ethical thing.

  37. changing the tune a little, I had a personal use UNIT member, her recruiter move and opted not to continue MK. For 5 years now, she has told me she would like to do more. (She lives hours from me) I found her an adopted director, gave her all the info. I even told her I would drive out and go to the first meeting with her. I also promised I would come out and do her first class with her. Anthing to help her get started. (She was new to the area and didn't know alot of people)

    Life has thrown her alot of curve balls, no denying that fact. But I continued to be there for her and when things settle down, we reschedule everything. Now, I am quite sure this adopted director must think I am a nut by now because I have planned on being at her meeting countless times over 5 years.

    The consultant called me in December because it was her last month to put an order in and she was having trouble, I returned many a phone call, to no avail (Pleases note she called me to get the order in - I did not call her to order because it was her last month)... well after the end of the month and a few weeks into the following month, I got a very nice voicemall message...

    That she thought she should take a break from MK and had found this new exciting company... did I want to book a party from her ... and that .....

    now, please be nice to me here. All I could think of was "Take a break from what?"

    5 years I was willing to help her in anyway I could and yet, she always had to reschedule. It wasn't be lack of trying. I guess I wasn't "pushy" enough??

    But now things have settle down and she is now going off to do another home party plan.

    I am sure she will say to others, MK didn't work for her. She has every right too. But I see the situation a little different.

    So she could say, (I don't think she would) - I never got any help from my director, it really isn't a lie, but it wasn't for my lack of trying.

    So I bet if she wrote her story, it may look like she had a horrible experience in MK but she only ordered what her and a couple of friends used and the one thing she can not say is that she lost money in MK.
    But I know she didn't make much either.

    Just thought this would be a good example at showing how the same story could look very different from the side of the fence you were sitting on.

  38. Good example, MK4Me.

    I have a recruit (she's been on my team for years) who used to call me and ask me all kinds of questions. I got to the point that I would just point blank tell her, "That's in your Consultant's Guide." She'd reply, "I know. But just tell me."

    Finally, I would just tell her what page her answer was on and go read your Guide.

    Just because it was easier for her to call me and have me give her the answer, does not mean that was the right way for her to learn these things. In fact, I think it was lazy and presumpteous. I mean, really, expecting me to do the work for her. Harumph.

    It is much better to teach them where the info is so they can find their answers any time. It's much more, dare I say, empowering.

    To just continually give them the answers, letting them be lazy, is enabling. So to speak.

    We, as recruiters, can be available, we can offer, we can teach, we can train, we can inform. But the recruit actually has to do the doing. :)

  39. another point, I saw judi, you said your director just gave you her Cons # and password to go onto her site so that you could re-sign. May I (scream quietly) as a director. She just handed you access to all the consultants in her unit and their information. (May I say -a compliment to you- that she obviously trusted you enough and you were an honest individual, but do you realize if you weren't what you could have been looking at - I am sure other unit members information is not to be shared with other unit members. If I were a unit member in that unit, I wouldn't want me director giving out her password to unit members.

    If I remember right you said you had called corporate on your director for what you felt she had done wrong. You said they did nothing because nothing was written (or something similiar to that) but if you have justifiable complaints this time, I would think, the Company will feel, well her complaints can't be too serious because she complained before but turned around and rejoined with her again. If she really had an issue with her she wouldn't have realigned herself with her.

    And one final note, okay so people can not see intouch before joining but online there are two full pages of terms of agreement that one is SUPPOSE to read in full and then initial and read and then check I agree or I disagree. and then after all of this then they are to sign their name on the agreement.

    This very same information is listed on the paper agreement, even though the print is smaller and harder to read. Even if I have a consultant sign up online, I have them print the pages with the terms to read and I mail them a paper agreement so they have that too. Of course if they are signing the paper agreement, I ask them to take a few minutes and look over the agreement terms. Very, very few would ever do this if I didn't ask them to. Loads of information is covered in that, and we were ALL suppose to read it before signing our agreements.

    *HEY DAVID - ANOTHER GREAT POLL QUESTIONS- How many actual read the terms and conditions either on their paper agreement or online before they signed their agreement? (I did) heehehe are u all suprised??

    This is where I feel I start training and showing that reading is important. And one must take responsibility for their actions. If you are suppse to read something before you sign it, then one should read before they sign it, but don't sign and then say, they didn't tell me, I will then whip out the agreement and say, well it is written here.. and it says this here... and here is your signature... right here... (never have had to do that though)

  40. Colleen -- The director is responsible for the production of her unit, just like she was during DIQ. If the unit is not making production, it is the director's job to figure out how to fix the problem. The unit members are responsible for their own business needs, not their director's. It will probably take a combination of things to bring production up:

    (a) Teaching her unit members how to make more sales and higher sales will lead to higher wholesale orders, but usually not immediately. She cannot rely on esprit de corp to encourage her unit members to order "for the unit" when they don't need the inventory. She might be able to get a boost for one month, but like JATO booster on a C-130 (, the unit has got to fly when the boost is gone. She can do things to encourage production by the middle of the month. My wife got the idea for a "non-procrastinators club" from another director. She gives out little thank you gifts, like packs of postcards and sticky notes, to her consultants who place orders on or before the 15th of the month. My wife's goal is to have half of her production in by the 15th of each month.

    (b) Recruiting new personal and unit team members will also lead to more production, as these new people place their initial orders. Yes, a director has to be constantly recruiting, both personally and assisting her unit members to recruit. It's a fact of life, just as the "salesmen wanted" sign I saw outside an Austin TX car dealership on Sunday morning. The often-quoted statement by Mary Kay Ash of 10 new recruits per month is very general. My wife's unit stays in one place with 3-5 new recruits per month.

    (c) Her own wholesale needs. (This can lead to a dangerous trap of keeping her unit by buying more inventory than she needs.) At Leadership I heard a good description of a director who think that she doesn't need to hold classes. The NSD called it SES, Senior Executive Syndrome. It was specifically addressed to directors who coast when they reach the Exec Sr level, but it is just as applicable to any director who thinks that she can just be a manager and not be in the field.

    Your example of when you were selling lab equipment is more analogous to a consultant's position. To compare to a director's postion, you would need to look at the lab equipment sales figures from the district/regional manager's role where he/she has several reps in the field. If his region's sales are down, corporate is going to expect him to fix the problem, but usually not by allowing him to hire more reps.

    Yes, sometimes the numbers just don't work. That's why MK allows a director to fall below $4,000 whsl unit production for one month with no action. (Note however that if the director has offspring directors, then she will get no offspring commission for that month.) A director could probably do this "month on, month off" routine indefinitely. (Also note that the minimum $4,000 production and a "month on, month off" routine will not meet the requirements for 1st or 2nd line unit in a NIQ area.) If the director is below $4,000 for two consecutive months, then depending on her past performance, Sales Development may give her an exception to allow her to meet the minimum production in the 3rd month. If so, they usually will specify in a letter (cc'd to her senior and her NSD) that it is a one-time exception.

  41. I'm happy to report I read the agreement before I signed it. :) Then, when I was a new consultant, I spent LOTS of time reading InTouch. The old layout had that link "For All Sales Force." I looked at that regularly. I checked daily for updates. I read as much as I could. If I had questions I'd ask my director. If I had a question I hadn't seen on InTouch and I didn't hear back from her right away, I'd check InTouch again and I would find my answers every time. ;)

  42. okay shades, that makes two so far.

    I read the agreement b/4 I signed.
    You read the agreement b/4 u signed.

    How about everyone else??

  43. i read before I signed. I am about to date myself, but I signed up when there was no intouch, our website had not come out yet, and I read all the materials in that showcase! I read the product knowledge handbook almost from cover to cover. There were two other books that came in the old showcases too, but the names escape me now.

    Gotta love the old days!

  44. Perfect Start Workbook I
    Perfect Start Workbook II
    Personal Touch Workbook
    214 page Consultant's Guide

    I still have all of them.

    I started before we even had telephone ordering. Boy, were we EXCITED when that came out!

    I read my Agreement. I asked questions while I was reading it, too. Then I read it several more times, too, over the years. I read everything in my Starter Kit. I read everything in the folder that my recruiter gave me right after I signed my Agreement.

  45. oh my, something in common, the people not complaining about being lied to, read the information they were given (what a novel idea)! duh..............

    and I use to think it was only men that didn't like reading instructions, manuals, or asking for directions,
    sorry David and mkhonesty, just joking!

    You know years ago, I remember a NSD say that even if you weren't in a position to attend a meeting or work with others if you read your p/s workbooks and consultant guides and studied and watched your skin care class video, you could do this business without any outside help. (And, it is true)

  46. " if you weren't in a position to attend a meeting or work with others if you read your p/s workbooks and consultant guides and studied and watched your skin care class video, you could do this business without any outside help. (And, it is true)"

    I've heard this, too. Not that many years ago, and during a phone conversation I had with the Company.

  47. Read mine too. I go on INTOUCH and read it at least once a week to see if things are changing. Didn't order to much inventory. Pretty simple really!!

  48. Pink Bren said...
    Read mine too. I go on INTOUCH and read it at least once a week to see if things are changing. Didn't order to much inventory. Pretty simple really!!


  49. yes I read the agreement too!!! MK Honesty thanks for your rebuttle I agree with most of it.


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