Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Warm Chatting / Building your Business

I am sure there are people that have a natural gift for this avenue of meeting new people. I do not happen to be one of them. For that very reason, I do not build my business or my clientelle on warm chatting. If I am uncomfortable, there is no sense in coming across "fake". When I was a consultant and my director thought it would be fun to go warm chat, I said see you later alligator. No way, no how.

I use bridal fairs, health fairs, business expos, craft fairs, fashion shows, county fairs, etc... where I can setup a display and have people register for a product trial with the grand prize of a product trial & a gift certificate for products. On my registration form, I have the question -Have you ever tried MK? Y or N, Do you have a consultant? Y or N , if you didn't win the gift certificate, would you still be interested in trying Mary Kay products? y or n? - Guess what, using this technique, I know which people are interested in trying MK, often I only call the ones that say they are interested in trying the products, if someone isn't sure instead of spending alot of time, I select the more promising leads to personally contact and send the not so promising ones a nice "thank you for stopping" letter with an invite to attend a show or schedule appointment with me and leave the ball in their court. No, not everyone will call, the majority of them won't but.... the ones that are actually interested will. Using this approach has saved many of my unit members the horrible feeling one gets from getting all no's! And guess what, when you have so many leads you don't know what to do with them all, you don't mind being able to sort them like that.

I have to admit, I usually have very little trouble booking but I really think that it is because I have an attitude of "if you aren't interested, no big deal-" your loss. I am not hungry, I don't beg, personally, I feel it is their loss- I don't over sell, I am sincere and honest. I know these products and am great with color, application, and techniques, if they don't want to spend time with me - so what. Often I find because I dismiss people so easily, it leaves many wondering and coming back in the future and asking me to make time for them.

I have had people ask me why I haven't ever offered them the chance to try MK, is there something wrong with them, etc.. I apologize and say, no, I am sorry, I just don't ever want someone in a place I frequent to feel obligated to try or purchase Mk from me so I tend to be over cautious, never realizing that for some people that can be just as insulting as been warm chatted, oh well, it is still fun when they ask you.

Contrary to anti MK sites, MK doesn't consume me, if I am out shopping, I shop, I don't scan every aisle for sharp woman, as a matter of fact because of the volume of clients I have, I often end up having to talk to people who start talking to me, there are times, I would just love to run into a store, pick up what I need and leave - When in Church, my focus is were it should be on what is being said. I do not understand how some of the people on negative sites, were so OCD about it. My advice, chill, relax, be natural, be real.

I don't target woman if what I do comes up in a nature way in a conversation often I just tell them what I do, most ask if I have a car, I say yup the Pink CTS is in the parking lot, and it becomes a game to me because they end up questioning me to pieces because I only answer what they ask, I don't jump and offer and usually by the end of the conversation, I am being asked if I would have time to get with them! Got to love it. It all about attitude.

For all of those that continue to make fun of MK tactics and the "warm stalking" - how can you not see that "chatting about pt" to people is no different than talking about MK. Worse in my opinion because you are wasting a person time for nothing.
Hmmm.. and we are accussed of cult like thinking?

Some people don't want to hear about MK, and there would be some of us that would not want to hear about PT. Some of us are not in a pink fog or brainwashed. We have the capacity to think for ourselves and make our own decisions and if someone approached me to tell me about a negative site, I wouldn't stand there in shock, but they would know what I was thinking! ;)

ohvay, just be real, it works! One of the most valuable question I teach my consultants if they are in a situation where they want to be able to call the person again or back but don't want to come across as "pushy"... in closing, simply ask (what a concept? :) ) - would it be okay if I checked back with you next week? or would it be okay if I followed up with you after the new PCP books come out. As long as they say "yes" and you respect their time when you have them on the phone, they will respect and appreciate you. So what say you? What way have you found to build your business by warmchatting or any other avenue?


  1. What I find interesting about this post is that over on (the anti board) they say that Allison hates warm chattering. GMB is a pro at it! Many of the women who are in MK were NOT warm chatters and warm chattering does not mean stalking.
    Mary Kay herself did not just walk up to people if you read her definition of warm chattering it was when you were in a store doing business with a bank teller, or waitress or anyone else you may be talking to and it comes up in the conversation. Im happy for those who are good at it because as much as I talk it frightens me to just walk up to someone. I was in the store with my mom a year ago and a women (its not her fault but she spoke like she was from the hood and looked raggedy) came up to both of us and said "you wanna try sum marie kayyy...LOL We are basically accosted I thought she acted like she was going to put a hit out on us. I was scared of her to tell the truth. A woman who looked professional would have gotten my attention I was afraid to tell her I was a consultant for fear of getting beat up. I do remember in the 80s women were walking up to cashiers and approaching them but that seems to have died down from what I can see.
    The takeaway method is great if you act like you dont care people are interested. Thanks for this posting.

  2. I'll say this: in retrospect, I think using a script in this scenario (as some people recommend) is the worst thing one could do. If you say whatever comes naturally more or less, you're probably going to do ok. If you say something that sounds like a "line" it won't work any better than it works trying to get a date! I mean think about it...suppose I'm asking a guy out.

    Me: Hey baby, are your legs tired? cause you been running through my mind all night!

    Him: WTF? Lemme alone!

    Me: Hey man, wanna go for some coffee?

    Him: Sure!

  3. First of all, my hat is off to MK4me and others who’ve indicated they don’t “warm chat.” Bless you and thank you for your decision to remain a human being. I’m thankful for people who know this behavior can be disgusting, but I’m disgusted by those who suggest “warm chatting” in Target, etc., is just a part of sales, or conversely, profess Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporation does not promote such behavior. Oh please...

    Ladies, we’ve (the wife and I) been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, the tote bag, the luggage, the genuine fake jewelry, etc., etc., etc.... The MK MLM not only heavily promotes warm chatting, they (as eluded to by Miranda) provide IBCs with warm chatting scripts. What’s more, the MK MLM trains their minions to understand they never really have to go to work, as with a JOB, but they are, rather, always ready (“sharp looking”) to “spread the gift” to anyone they meet during any day-to-day activity, i.e., at the grocery store, in the doctor’s waiting room, at PTA events, at church, etc. Ya see, the MK MLM inculcates its IBCs to understand the May Kay Cosmetics “opportunity” is a gift that every woman deserves. And further, an IBC should never miss an opportunity to share this “gift” with any and every woman, as failure to do so could be (should be, they say) construed as some type of selfishness on the part of the IBC.

    Now add on top of all of the above the clearly conveyed message that God wants you to be all you can be so commit yourself to fulfilling His vision for you and invest yourself in this wonderful business venture which puts God above all else..... Yes!! Go out, then, and warm chat all breathing creatures you see with breasts, and remember you’re doing the Lord’s work! You’re sharing a wonderful gift with women who would otherwise miss out on the MK MLM opportunity if not for your (IBC) philanthropy.

    ...Oh PUUULLLEEEEASE! Does it ever just bug ya? I dare any among you who’ve been associated with the MK MLM for any significant time to tell me you’ve not been exposed to this message.

    ...brace yourself,

    ...analogy approaching...

    I can only imagine that feeling former IBCs get when they look back and realize what they once engaged in... I’m old enough to remember the early 1970s when men wore platform shoes, polyester leisure suites, imitation silk shirts (usually flowered) gold neck chains, and finished this ensemble with a dousing of Old Spice aftershave (enough to allow our scent to enter the room long before our body). Wooo!!

    We all have them, the “What the hell was I thinking” recollections. Former IBCs share a common collection of such recollections. Warn chatting has to be (I’d guess) a recurring one of these recollections.

    People move on. I believe warm chatting is one of the many things that fuels the profound epiphany: “this is ridiculous and I’m not gonna be a part of it anymore”! Consider David, the creator of this blog and a formerly unabashed promoter of the MK MLM opportunity. Could it be his epiphany has arrived? Could it be that today, for him, the Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM opportunity is his polyester leisure suite and bottle of aftershave cologne?


  4. Not sales related but Mary Kay related interesting reading

  5. Blessed,
    MK Corporation never thought of these warm chattering tactics they have been promoted by certain NSD's and successful directors and they just got handed down over the years.

  6. So then Colleen, you’re telling me the warm chatting thing was all the product of a few less than scrupulous Nationals and never promoted or endorsed through the knowing and deliberate inaction of the Mary Kay Corporation (and by the way, don’t forget, always genuflect when you say “May Kay Corporation”)?


  7. Let me rephrase myself Blessed.
    Warm Chatter IS endorsed by MK Corporation no doubt. The WAY its being done is not the same as MK endorses it. Training materials from Directors and NSD's are not all the same so I cant judge everyone. If you go to MKINTOUCH and can find a file where it says to go in the store and start looking for sharp women out of the blue I will bow to you..LOL If Corporate allows it from a TOPDOG there is nothing that I can say, if they are allowing it and know about it (which Im sure they do) its one thing. The company itself does not endorse these things. I do know they cracked down on directors giving away free starter kits and paying for them just to get them to join though (although Im sure it goes on) ..these women are independent contractors so if what they are doing works for them so be it, but I can guarantee you for those who use these methods over and over again and bring in the herd the cattle is not on a solid foundation.

  8. “...the heard of cattle is not a solid foundation.” Excellent point.

    There is a practice encouraged and cultivated by (and common among) MK MLM apologists. I’m referring to the practice of characterizing the IBC distribution network (the IBCs, Directors, Nationals, etc.) as the crowd responsible for the untoward behavior associated with the MK MLM. I’ve found MK MLM apologists will frequently place blame for the many ills associated with the “dream” at the feet of those in the independent contractor workforce. Simultaneously, the apologist will suggest “the company itself” is not responsible for “the bad things some in the business do.” I’m confident you’ve also been exposed to this bravo sierra.

    I believe individuals do indeed contribute to the ills of the MK MLM. However, I’m convinced the corporate office is much more culpable for the injuries caused by the MK MLM than all the workforce combined. In fact, I’m convinced, MK Corporate encourages, nurtures and propagates the misperception they are merely interested in enriching women’s lives and it’s other people in the distribution network who do the bad things. Mary Kay Corporation is interested in making money, which is just fine! The sad thing is so many unsuspecting women are injured in the process through the MK MLM exploitation of women for profit.

    So I suggest you not only follow Mk4me’s lead and skip the “warn chatting” silliness, but also consider skipping the entire MK MLM fiasco. Save yourself, family and friends the hassles. Adopt a new mantra: “Friends Don’t Let Friends Sell Mary Kay.”


  9. DAVE!!!

    OMG!!! It’s the great white MK apologist in chief!!! How ya doing?


  10. I believe that the people actually making money here are those like MK4ME using common sense and financial savvy (on top of naturally having charisma) rather than those who do whatever they are told. It sounds ironic, but it seems to me that you actually have to be somewhat of a rebel.

    Just like...again...asking guys out, I think a relaxed and casual attitude is the best way to go. I wouldn't wear a business suit to ask a guy out. He'd be freaked and say no. And in retrospect I should probably not have worn a business suit to go facial people. A nice flowy skirt and blouse woulda done the trick better. ah well. My sales days are over!

  11. Great we actually have some conversation going! Good to see you Blessed.

    I have an appointment in a little while but I want to write a bit and then I will finish it later.

    As for "warm chatting" - we all warm chat whether you are in MK or not. This is actually just where I wanted this conversation to go.... I do "warm chat" if and when the proper opportunity presents itself in a general conversation and may perhaps drop a hint. The key is reading someone's reaction, body language, expressions, etc... to know whether it is a good idea to offer the product trial. It must flow naturally. The scripts are guides, yes, I know, I have heard don't change a word of it form some but it isn't really don't change the wording... but the way certain things are phrased.

    Open ended questions will take longer to get answers.. either or questions are answered quicker. And just because I ask someone which is better for you Tuesday or Thursday, no one is going to pick one of them if neither is good for them.

    Two examples in no mk life... when my son was little if I said to him which video would you like to watch, we would stand in front of the bookshelf with all the tapes on it for hours while he decided. If I said to him, which video do you want to watch - Peter Pan or Bambi... I got an answer in seconds. Even he at a very young age, would say, neither if he wasn't interested in either and usually tell me which one he wanted to watch. See? It is only common sense to narrow choices.

    #2 Mr mk4me will say.. "let's go out and eat"...I say Ok.. he says.. "where do you want to go" - my common response is, "I don't care you choose".... of course this leads to a review of every restaurant in a 25 mile radius and then he tries guessing what he thinks I want to eat. I happen to love Red Lobster (we are landlocked here & I love seafood) - so he will often pick Red Lobster because he thinks that is what I want. - when I tell him I don't care, I really don't, then he will later whine that he was really hungry for Chinese! --- well, I said I didn't care... so why did you go to Red Lobster. .... are we seeing this silly scenario that happens with us all the time?

    Now I say anywhere but Chinese (I have to be in the mood for Chinese food) or I wouldn't mind going to Olive Garden or TGIF's. Which one do you like better. - things go much better and we eat much sooner... and just for giggles, I just say.... Chinese!! :) which then goes into him saying, "no, that's okay, I know you really don't want Chinese" - I say I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't want it.... haha, I am glad noone is ever in the car for these conversations.

    See if he would just say do you want to eat at X or Y - I would answer the questions.

    How we say things does make a big difference in and out of MK!

    Blessed, buddy - have a note for you but it must wait until later.

    Have a good day all!

    (and if there are typo's, misspellings, or goofy words, I apologize ahead of time - don't have time to reread what I wrote!)

  12. one last comment, the only time I am in a suit is when I am in my director's suit at MK events... if I wore a suit around here, I would have starved to death a long time ago.

    Now looking good, makes sense, why would any of us want advice on how to apply makeup or take care of our skin - if ours looks better than the person offering the advice? duh... no brainer -

    From my observations, very frequently the BEST sales people are hte ones that don't feel they are any good at sales. - Seriously, I couldn't sell ice to someone in Hades, but... I do a mean product & color presentation, I don't need to "sell" if I get thru the people either like it and want it, or they don't... I never, ever want to strong arm someon into buying something and then later have them resenting me because they shorted their budget or it sat on the counter top unused. (I even hated helping my kids do the fund raisers in school).

    Another example, (picking on Miranda) - she says she is lousy at selling, she admits, she is not a people person... she didn't enjoy MK... but not a seller?? How many of you after reading her product reviews (if you weren't familiar with the products) would want to go try them simply because of the way she describes them? She is only stating her opinion of them but she is sincere and sites examples. She sold me on going to try the eye primer, I confess, I never used it because I didn't have problems with my eyeshadow staying on..... after her review, I went and tried it... my already good looking eye shadows, now look even better. So thanks Miranda, you sold me on the eye primer!! and she says she can't sell. pooey!

  13. Everyone else,

    "warm chatting" is, like Mary Kay itself, 'what it is'.

    As I understand it, and have observed it, it is the label given to casual conversation leading to a (hopefully) natural "in" along the lines of, "by the way, I sell Mary Kay and would love to show you what we offer".

    The very design of it is tailored to eliminate the need for so called "cold calling" or stalking.

    As Miranda points out, "being yourself" is the best strategy for this endeavor. For the painfully shy, a script can help one get those essential first words out. From there, hopefully natural conversation can take over.

    This (chatting with a stranger) comes naturally for some. I can't help talking to people around me. I try to make eye contact with everyone I cross. Maybe it's genetic, maybe something else, but I love "chatting". I know other people that do not. It does not come natural to them. I remember being in middle school and it was not natural for me then. Perhaps it is acquired.

    Regardless, it is from this, I am sure, that "fake it 'til you make it' rises from. "Fake it 'til you make it" is not, in my opinion, intended to suggest that you spend money to create a false appearance of wealth until you generate actual wealth. That is a manipulation of the original intent of the quote.

    Is it used in that sense amongst MK people? Doubtless. Is it why our nation is drowning in debt? Seems so. Are all debt-drowning victims caused by MK? HA!!!

    I have maintained, and still do, that if you want to sell cosmetics, but are not willing to take the necessary steps to let people know that you have cosmetics to sell, you should probably not sell cosmetics. ;)

    In regards to Blessed's continuous attempts to paint me as a former apologist and soon-to-be antagonist, neither is true.

  14. I dont go out looking to warm chatter. I tried it, dont like it, wont do it. BUT I do welcome any conversation about MK and I do hand out my business cards to people and leave it at that. I wear my pin, ( by the way, today I sold some fragrance just because I had my pin on..someone stopped me to ask about my pin and it went from there..)
    Warm Chatter is just another way to get leads. If you can find another way that works for you..then do it, but at the same time you cant be afraid to let people know you sell Mary Kay, sometimes all you need to do is say that you are a consultant, and someone will let you know they need somthing. I have had contracters, plumbers, roofers, insurance agents etc..all give me thier business cards at some point. Why should we be any different? No one thinks they are wrong for passing out their cards, so we should not feel bad if we hand out cards to people we happen to be having a conversation with?

  15. Blessed and I differ in our approach to communication. He, it seems, would convince people that his opinion is fact.

    Consider that when he was 'enraptured' with the Mary Kay "Dream" (as he calls it) - by his own admission - he was antagonistically pro-MK. Can anyone that has read this blog long not picture him as his wife's biggest cheerleader and the one that shut down any arguments against the dream life they were sprinting towards? I can't.

    He was convinced that Mary Kay was 'the way, the truth...' and if he says it is, well then it must be...

    Now, for some undeclared reason, the "dream" he had called fact, turned out to be something other than he had thought.

    So now, because he has changed his mind, the fact - or truth - that we all must believe is that Mary Kay is bad. Inherently so.

    I said we differ in approach. Here is why I say that.

    My approach is that there is no fact about Mary Kay. There is propaganda on both sides. People within Mary Kay have/are/will tell lies in order to make money. More money, faster money, any money. Whether this is rare, common or somewhere in between does not matter. What matters is that you (not your recruiter or director or husband or anyone else) find out what you are getting yourself involved in.

    Pink Truth, blessed and sites like it promote their own brand of lies. The 'real' truth about Mary Kay would not be interesting enough to attract the volume of visitors that they are looking for. Would not convince people to 'rally' against Mary Kay. So they enhance, fabricate, and/or create completely false, unfounded accusations.

    My goal here was and still is to challenge anyone considering Mary Kay (or ANY endeavor that requires a commitment of resources) to look at all the facts and consider, with a realistic mindset, whether it is a logical move for you.

    I think that Mary Kay is a good company. My wife is involved and loves it. I know many other people (clients and consultants) that also love it. I strongly recommend that if it seems like something you would enjoy doing, take a closer look. Do the 'boring' work of making sure you know everything BEFORE you make a decision, though.

    Blessed demonstrates that he is either incapable of understanding this position or intentionally avoiding it because it ruins his "case" against what I am trying to do.

    Though entertaining, he (and anyone else -in Mary Kay or against Mary Kay- that promotes their agenda over common sense and fact finding), like wikipedia, should not be considered a reliable source.

    If I have spoken too strongly, or unnecessarily (I suspect the latter, not the former to be true) I apologize. I know that you, my readers, are very intelligent and doubtless already realize this to be true of Blessed, smear-sites, and certain, over-zealous MK types. However, not everyone reading this post has the benefit of all of blessed's self-exposing rants. Since he chose to 'call me out' in the comments of an otherwise innocuous post, I felt the need to express that my feelings, thoughts and expressions about Mary Kay have not changed.

    Unfortunately Blessed can not seem to discriminate between decreased involvement in a project and a changed opinion about the same.

    On that note, I do apologize for my lack of involvement in this blog, but would like to express my gratitude to everyone who is making it exactly what I had hoped it would be. Thanks particularly to mk4me for keeping a steady stream of posts available to the 'balanced MK' readers. As well as thanks to Miranda for taking the time to bring, not only product reviews, but also a highly entertaining personal flavor!

    Thanks everyone for reading and bringing up great thoughts and thought provoking discussion!

  16. Blessed,
    I dont have a problem with the points that you are trying to make and some of what you say is justified. However in highly regulated industries (stocks and commodities) Bernie Madoff has made it bad for "honest investors" and I think what has happened to these innocent people is FAR worse than some of the MK consultants and directors I mean 20-30 years of life savings and everyone believed this guy (talk about a PONZI scheme) there are many more companies out there that are regulated and have done dirt to tarnish peoples bank accounts and reputations. I guess what Im trying to say is MK is not the only company to have some things going on in the mix and sometimes when people make these complaints (not you)is perceived as an isolated situation MLM, network marketing whatever. I will post more tonight. MK can enrich a womans life (a lot of companies can if a woman is getting a paycheck and has a flexible work schedule) but lives are not enriched if there are divorces, lack of sex, money problems and MK is not responsible for those things only if a man or woman is so consumed by their business that it becomes their focus or their god.

  17. Dave wrote:

    “Blessed and I differ in our approach to communication. He, it seems, would convince people that his opinion is fact.”


    Well listen, if (as per Dave’s inference) we can all agree my opinions are “fact,” well, we’ll all make quicker progress during our discussions. ;-) So, please do give his suggestion all due consideration.


    You make an excellent point. No, I wouldn’t try to suggest the damage caused by the MK MLM is anywhere near the severity caused by Bernard Madoff. There is nonetheless, I believe (I assume you’d agree), a disproportionate level of injury caused by the MK MLM (or most any MLM for that matter).


    Hello all. I’m a middle aged white male married to a wonderful woman and blessed with wonderful children and a cat. You may call me “Blessed” but you should know I am a flawed individual. I am engaged here, drawn (if you will), to the MK MLM conversation as a survivor of the damage this MLM can inflict upon unsuspecting women and their families. My interest in sharing comes from the same place where your interest in helping came from that time you nudged a stranger on the sidewalk so they’d avoid stepping in a hugh, fresh, pungent pile of dog poo. Be assured, there are still hints of dog crap on the bottoms of my shoes. So why then, would you ever consider taking advise about how to walk on a sidewalk from someone who, by his own admission, got into such a mess while doing it? Good question.

    Be assured I was walking briskly, with confidence, before my wingtips sank deeply into the pile of Fido fecal matter. I was walking with a stride which clearly stated nonverbally I knew where I was going and had a planned destination. What I didn’t know, of course, was I was about to walk right into a pile of $#!t. The guy who lives on this section of sidewalk owns about 37 Great Danes. I’m not sure what he feeds them but my observations suggest it’s something he provides in large quantities and it’s mixed with a lot of fiber. It turns out this sidewalk is always covered by the many piles of the remnants from repeated bowel evacuations by these big dogs. Now don’t get me wrong, it’s very possible you could traverse this sidewalk and not get your shoes dirty at all. Some would suggest, though, this is all but impossible. And think about it, why would you want to even try? You expose yourself to the high likelihood you’d be stepping a pile of $#!t and, at best, expose yourself to the smelly shoes of the many who already have. Why not simply avoid this entire section of sidewalk altogether?

    Well, I’m the guy at the beginning of the block suggesting to strangers you may wanna avoid this section of sidewalk. And yea, I see ya looking, you don’t have to ask. That’s dog poo all over my shoes.


    I’ve got to wonder Dave, are there any scenarios in which you’d choose to minister to another person about the benefits or pitfalls of various life choices, or would any advice you’d ever impart always be limited to a purported non-committal such as “examine all the facts before you decide”? For example, if another person sought your counsel because they found themselves at a cross road and they were contemplating whether to choose a Christian or Hindu path re their faith, would you simply tell them to investigate thoroughly or might you have a recommendation based upon your personal experiences?


  18. Blessed,

    You illustrate my point well.

    You stepped in a pile. It was a mistake. It is in the past.

    Previous to that, you (it seems) didn't think it was possible for you to make a misstep.

    Now, rather than doing what any ordinary person would typically do (scoop and discard the pile, wipe off shoe and keep walking, or maybe find a traffic cone to divert future foot traffic), you create a world (massive, gormandizing hounds with poor bowel control) where the entire street where your misstep happened ought to be avoided by all. This allows you to simultaneously return to walking, well assured that you are not capable of making a misstep while denigrating the neighborhood with the irresponsible, big-dog-owning denizens.

    Truth. A (one) (1) dog pooped and a (one) (1) dog owner failed to properly dispose of said mess.

    Truth. You stepped in it.

    This does not (in my opinion) justify an attempt to start a movement to make dog ownership illegal. Or pursue legislation to put up street signs warning all pedestrians to avoid said evil street.

    That said, and in answer to your direct question to me, I will often, when solicited, offer my opinion and the rationale that I used to form it. Be it of a religious, educational or financial nature, I often make recommendations. Some are based on personal experience or observation. Some on my understanding, however limited, of the subject in question and the research and/or evidence available. However, it would be foolish, I think, to ever suggest that someone - on the basis of my recommendation alone - take a course of action without doing their own research into it.

    Just the other day I was discussing with a friend the thought of starting some real estate investing. I told him what I knew, what I had heard, and some of my personal ideas and theories, being careful to distinguish which was which. I hate to think that an optimistic idea that popped into my head in the middle of a conversation would be confused with a known fact about real estate investing.

    The fact that you still can't grasp this concerns me.

  19. Thank you for your concern about me. I’m Ok.

    Share with me for a moment, step into a hypothetical world for just a short time. Describe for me a hypothetical scenario in which you could see yourself recommending to someone who’d sought your counsel that they should avoid the MK MLM.

    Let’s add some details to this hypothetical world. Let’s say you discovered information you found credible indicating the Mary Kay Corporation had begun to systematically collect and sell identities of it’s IBCs to foreign underground black markets knowing this information was being used in identity theft. Would you consider recommending to women considering signing on as an MK MLM IBC to do otherwise?

    If you discovered what you determined to be credible information indicating Mary Kay Corporation was playing a role in the kidnaping of women who attend seminar or hold MK classes at their homes and selling them into the Asian underground sex trade, would you recommend to others they should avoid signing up to become an MK MLM IBC?

    These are just two outlandish, outright ridiculous, examples of behavior in purely hypothetical scenarios that you and I can prudently describe as absurd. Mary Kay Corporation HAS DONE NEITHER, and I believe they never would. These scenarios, however, serve as useful illustrations. Can you, David, say you’d steer a woman seeking your counsel away from the MK MLM if you had information you found credible suggesting any such thing was happening?

    Why would I pose such a question?

    I ask because your answer will reveal whether you’re an unsalvageable shill who has abandoned all objective thought to support of the MK MLM cause or it will reveal that you, yes even you Dave, are capable of acknowledging there are scenarios in which even you would take an anti-MK MLM stance.

    So then, could you see yourself warning others about the MK MLM in any of the above scenarios?

  20. Blessed,

    I am not sure what, in all of our past conversations, would make you think I would entertain - much less address - your ridiculous hypothetical questions.

    I deal, when offering advice, in the real world. As much as possible.

    I must confess that I was surprised (borderline shocked) that you would put into print the reason that you were asking a question. That is, until I realized it was just another mask. Another manipulation.

    In point of fact, I have - on numerous occasions - "warned" other people to be cautious in their approach to Mary Kay. However, it seems that you still lack the skill of discriminating between logical caution and absurd fantasy.

    I recently received an email from a neighbor indicating that our local Post Office may (emphasis: MAY) be culpable of stealing mail. Credit Cards (statements, offers and actual cards) have been reported missing; NetFlix DVDs have mysteriously turned up missing; Packages with package confirmation/tracking have disappeared with no explanation. As a matter of course, everyone in the area is being implored to "report" any similar experiences. "No matter how small" the request goes, "file a complaint...".

    Do you see how much more logical this approach is than finding and using any pedestal of public attention to decry the USPS?

    Suppose that you joined the voices on this blog in saying, "Report any abuses/incidents to corporate". Or recommend a step higher. Open an official line of complaint with an organization such as BBB or, higher still, an investigatory organization in the government such as the FTC and ask (plead with if you care to) the readers here to submit their concerns to the concerned organization.

    I am not going to stand in front of our local post office (or organize a 24/7 coalition to stand there) telling people that the post office can't be trusted, that the PO DDS (delivery distribution system - as I have decided to call it) is fundamentally flawed and they should walk, no run, in the other direction before they come out and abscond with their important deliverables.

    So, no, I won't play your game. No matter how horrible it may be to be branded (by you) as " unsalvageable shill who has abandoned all objective thought...".

    I will give you the option of playing my own pseudo-version of your game.

    Share with me for a moment, step into a hypothetical world for just a short time. Describe for me a hypothetical scenario in which you could see yourself recommending to someone who’d sought your counsel that they should participate in MK, the company.

    Let’s add some details to this hypothetical world. Let’s say you discovered information you found credible indicating the Mary Kay Corporation was, indeed, not at all culpable of the situation that has happened to you and your wife. In point of fact (keep in mind this is a "hypothetical" world) your wife was the one and only such occurrence in the entire history of the company. Further, your wife's situation had nothing whatsoever to do with the company. Not the corporation, not the factory that creates the product, not the product itself, not her upline, her downline, no customers were guilty, no greedy executive, no selfish, spoiled children of the founder. You discovered through hard evidence that the onus of this horrible misfortune that befell you was entirely on Ms. Blessed.

    More fantastic (in the 'fantasy' sense of the word), you discover that ALL other women that have participated in MK past and present have been "immensely satisfied".

    Would you consider recommending to women considering signing on as an MK IBC to do so?

    I ask because your answer will reveal whether you’re an unsalvageable shill who has abandoned all objective thought to support of the Pink Truth cause or it will reveal that you, yes even you "blessed", are capable of acknowledging there are scenarios in which even you would take an pro-MK stance.

  21. YES! YES! YES!

    Yes I would recommend to any women she should join up and become a Mary Kay IBC if I’d found credible evidence that “…all other women that have participated in MK past and present have been ‘immensely satisfied.’” I’d be supporting the Mary Kay Cosmetics opportunity with bells on!!! That would be a wonderful situation. Imagine an organization which offered genuine friendships, recognition and real income opportunities rather than a product based pyramid scheme.

    Hey, wait, all negative talk aside. If I had credible evidence that Mary Kay Cosmetics was something regarding which “…all women past and present were immensely satisfied,” it’d be just great. I think I’d still be a MK husband, no, I’d be a very happy and content MK husband, happy to see his wife so happy, content and immensely satisfied. Bubba, I’d be a male cheerleader for the Mary Kay way!

    But alas, that’s just not the case is it Dave. And what’s more, alas, this exchange may clearly illustrate the difference between you and me. I’ll answer the question. You won’t.

  22. "But alas, that’s just not the case is it..."

    My point exactly.

    Your outrageous accusations and bizarre scenarios have no place in a serious discussion.

    They offer no benefit to those that have fallen prey (except perhaps in the therapeutic, bash on the perceived common enemy 'benefit') to similar manipulations.

    In fact, if anything I would think that you would shy away from or vehemently speak AGAINST the manipulative behavior, the wording traps, the intentionally twisted and emotionally charged language. Instead, you are USING the very tactics that you allege were used against you.


    But that serves no purpose. We could go back and forth with this nonsense.

    Alas, alas, alas, it seems you are right. The major difference between you and I, is that you would prefer to play games and force people into an all or nothing situation, the winner of which is absolutely right, and absolutely you.

    I have always dislike advertisements that make outrageous claims that are unrelated to their product. Whether serious or 'in jest', ads that depict guys getting 'hot' girls because of their beer, shaving cream, body spray, or some other innocuous product. Be it a job promotion, a relationship or happiness that is being promised, I find it distasteful to blur the line between what the product will do (moisturize skin, intoxicate or transport or any other assortment of function) and the "hypothetical" side benefits. I immensely prefer the ads (though few and far between) that say, this is our beverage. It tastes good. Try it.

    Clearly, we live in a world where how something will make you feel is far more important than the quality of that product.

    Are there people that sell Mary Kay as a 'chance of a lifetime' and an 'incredible dream'? Obviously.

    Are there people that manipulate feelings and appeal to emotions and potential female weaknesses. Unfortunately, there are - and there always will be.

    What I don't get, is why you feel the need to use those manipulators to decry the manipulation you experienced. Does that not seem hypocritical to you?

    Would it not (as I mentioned before and you will clearly continue to ignore) be better to encourage a more appropriate response to the abuses that - no argument here - are clearly and evidently occurring?

    I usually don't 'show my cards' the way I am about to. I tolerate - no encourage - your tirades here for one reason. The more content that you provide for me for free... such as wordy comments using gratuitously ridiculous words, phrases and concepts... the more likely someone will find this site in a search. On the other hand, it provides an adversary of sorts... something concrete with which to explain the difference between the way Pink Truth processes what they have observed and the way that a reader of this site, a normal, 'everyday' woman that is considering Mary Kay, in Mary Kay, or out of Mary Kay should process the glut of opinions and information in the blogosphere.

    So go on with your crazy rants if you so choose. But how about it? Care to answer a serious question? One that does not exist in some hypothetical plane?

    Why do you insist on resisting the normal route of righting a perceived wrong in favor of ranting and raving and creating unrealistic, hypothetical analogies that you know are designed to make good people look like schmucks?

  23. I regret upsetting you. I certainly don’t want to make you or anyone else look like a “schmuck.” My impression is you are a sharp (no pun here) caring person. Somehow, it seems, you assume I had no contact with the FTC when the proposed business rules were open for comment. I’ve covered a number of routes. The ultimate answer, though, I believe, is largely in the hearts and minds of people like you, me, Miranda, Shaw, Colleen, and many, many others who’ve been touched by this MLM.

    By the way, and please be patient with me, I have to point out you still didn’t answer my question. I didn’t ask whether you’d not recommend anything. I asked if you would (in the affirmative) recommend to someone they avoid the MK MLM. You think you could ever do this, in the absurd scenarios I presented or some other situation?


  24. Blessed,

    You haven't upset me. I am merely pointing out the folly of your tactic(s).

    I don't assume that you have or have not had contact or pursued the routes I am recommending. I am observing that you spend a lot of time ranting and I have never heard you mention a plan of action that anyone who has had a similar experience as you should follow. It seems you are putting all your effort into convincing me to join your cause and be an echo of your own rants. Failing to convince me to add my voice you have resorted to trying to make it seem that I am either insane, stubborn or a 'shill'... or, failing that, make it appear that my lack of participation on this blog is an endorsement of your opinions.

    I have told you before (and will again, now) that it wouldn't take some fantastical situation for me to recommend someone avoid Mary Kay. For some people Mary Kay will be a great match. We have seen that in several of the readers here. For some it will not. We see that in several of the readers here as well.

    I will tell you who I would recommend avoiding involvement in Mary Kay.

    Someone that doesn't want to be involved. They have looked at it, and feel that (for any number of reasons) it would not be a good match for them. I would recommend that that person avoid getting involved with Mary Kay.

    If someone told me they were joining so that they could become uber-wealthy by next year I would recommend they avoid Mary Kay. (At least for the fulfillment of that goal. Then again, I would recommend they modify their goal.

    As such, that is why I am still trying to convince you that you are going about this the wrong way. I have an almost uncontrolable desire to help people achieve their goals. I, obviously, can't support you in your goal to bring down Mary Kay, but I would love to help you find closure and communicate what happened to you and your wife to people that would benefit from hearing it.

  25. That was a very thoughtful note and I thank you for your concern. I’m not sure I’m seeking any type of closure; in fact, I’m sort of confident that’s not the case at all. I believe my MK MLM interest is closer to that of a cancer survivor who volunteers for the American Cancer Society for the rest of their life. You know, inspired by the tragedy of so many, that sort of thing.

    It is so apparent you are genuinely trying to respond to my question, and I appreciate your kind efforts. However, what you’ve described to me is how you would advise people re the MK MLM based upon their individual, unique interests and skill sets. That’s not what I was asking. I’m asking you not consider the variables of the person who may be interested in the “opportunity,” but rather only the risk level of the MK MLM, based on the scenario of your choice, but based on a scenario re the MK MLM which would be so destructive, so dangerous, etc.

    So then, again I ask, could you ever recommend to someone that the MK MLM should be avoided because of the danger the MK MLM presents: kidnapping, identity theft, etc. (and not any particular characteristics presented by the individual considering signing up to be an IBC)? Use the hypotheticals I presented, however absurd they are, or make one up yourself. Please just tell me there is a scenario re which you could (would) find yourself driven to warn women to avoid the MK MLM because of the risk for injury.


  26. Ok Blessed, you went too far on that one. I lost my dad to leukemia at the very young age of 58, hence the reasons I wanted out of a 60+ hour a week - high stress job while my kids were being raised by babysitters - I realized what was most important in my life wasn't. Cancer is a disease a person gets. They don't get a choice whether or not they want to venture into it or not.

    Mary Kay is a choice. Period. Ordering product is a choice. Period. Running up debt is stupid, not fatal. Divorce although not pleasant and can be financial devasting doesn't kill you.

    Okay,sorry you touched a nerve on that one.

    For Blessed, I will remove this if you request but when I was reading pt this morning, I saw this post from you and it made me think of something I really wanted to point out. Here is your post (as I said, if you would have are for me to remove it I will-

    |2009-06-15 13:51:36


    I occasionally feel as though Mary Kay Cosmetics has become an overly influential third person in my marriage and an unwanted family financial partner. For our marriage this undertaking has already become a source of strife and divisiveness. How can I reduce the influence this venture has over my wife?


    Realize you’re dealing with an organization which planned for your objections long before you ever decided you had any. Never underestimate the ability of the MK MLM to influence your wife’s behavior by keying on some of her most positive attributes: her faith, her ability to promote relationships, her desire to experience affirmation, her interest in making money, etc. Understand your spouse is being trained to view your objections as an indication you are an “unsupportive husband.” Ensure your objections are couched and delivered in a fashion which will promote you as the caring, supportive, concerned husband you are. Don’t refrain from expressing objections about the Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM, in fact, object often. Just remember anger is unproductive and could play into the hands of your wife’s MK MLM handlers.

    Take steps to protect your family finances. Check to see if there has been financial damage you’re unaware of (credit cards, etc). Endeavor to reach agreement with your wife regarding limits on expenditures of money and time.

    Love your wife with all your heart and court her all over again. Praise her and let her know you appreciate her. Ensure your praise is louder than the objections you’re contentiously presenting about the MK MLM. Continue to object about the MK MLM, but sweep your wife off her feet all over again.

    You’re not alone. Expose yourself and your wife to the affirming sanity available from reading the testimonials of others victimized by the MK MLM.

    Pray. Pray together and help your wife understand Christ never intended his name be used to sell a product or maneuver others into doing so.

    Before this gets to long I will know posted my observation and comment in the next box.

  27. I guess you are either not hearing me, or so preoccupied with putting your words in my mouth that you have not noticed that I have indeed answered your question.

    In one of your bizzaro world scenarios, I would indeed advise against involvement with a company that did those things or "advise avoiding it" or "not advise participating" or however it is that you would like it worded.

    In certain personal situations I would advise against, or not advise for, or whatever it is you want me to say.

    But that is not what this is all about. We are talking about Mary Kay. A company that sells cosmetics and skin care products. Not any of your fantasy organizations that exploit women.

  28. oops know = now....

    To Blessed,
    okay, you tell everone how to get their wife back once she is "lost" to Mary Kay. Have you ever considered the reason women are so intrenched & lost in MK is perhaps (not referring to your relationship) because they are not receiving recongition, praise, acheiving, etc.. in there marriage and that when they start being recognized and made to feel good about themselves they like the way it feels? - PERHAPS... your answer should be more like: Husbands always treat your wives like they are something special, don't take advantage of them and treat them like sh*t and then they won't get so caught up in the recognition, they won't make poor choices because they are fulfilled on a personal level with her relationship- I have come to the conclusion that those that get too caught up in the rah rah, have no other rah rah in their lives and are filling a need that they are missing elsewhere.

    I do not think Mary Kay destroys marriages, I believe many of the relationships were in trouble before and it was just the straw that broke the camels back.. just as if another man wooed your spouse away, why would he be able to woo her away? Because he is providing something she isn't getting at home from her man.

    Next point as you mention religious manipulation... I will say I have been a director quite a few years. I have taken many classes -never - not once I have been taught how to manipulate people. Never have I been told to use religious manipulation. And please tell me, how using God or Christ is going to work on the Wicken woman, the Jewish women, Jehovah's Witness and the Atheist I have in my unit?

    I stand firm. Mary Kay is a business. If extremists want to make it a religion, that is on them not the Company and certainly not on all directors and consultants.

    And I will not argue there is more than one "rotten" apple in the group, but there are many,many good ones. they just aren't exciting - if you notice - the same NSD's get quoted on the pt over and over, I have not seen the nationals that provide great training. They have found a few that are not pt approved and hold them up as what all of them are like. So not true.

    I picked up a box of strawberries today. They looked great at first glance - upon opening them - several of them were bad. I am sure it started with one and then spread to the ones surrounding it. Did I throw all of them out? Nope, I removed the bad ones and pitched them and saved the rest. See my point? I am sure there are not so wonderful people and I am sure you will also find them in clusters, you don't throw the whole box away, just the bad ones. I encourage anyone that feels they have been lied to or had something less than wonderful perpetrated upon them contact Mary Kay and register their complaint. Please do not say that Mary Kay does not take action, just because it might not be made public, doesn't mean they aren't addressing it.

  29. Well said mk4me, well said.

    "I stand firm. Mary Kay is a business. If extremists want to make it a religion, that is on them not the Company and certainly not on all directors and consultants."

    "I encourage anyone that feels they have been lied to or had something less than wonderful perpetrated upon them contact Mary Kay and register their complaint. Please do not say that Mary Kay does not take action, just because it might not be made public, doesn't mean they aren't addressing it."

  30. Mk4me,

    I too lost a relative, my mother, to cancer. In a few months we’ll observe the 10 year anniversary of her passing. I sincerely hope the memories my reference triggered were not too unpleasant for you.

    You make some interesting points.

    Today I’m faced with a multitude of fires I must address. I can’t reply today (perhaps for a number of days) the way I did yesterday.

    I believe differences in our perceptions boil down to perspective. You and Dave believe (I surmise) there are a number of bad apples (individuals) who do things inappropriately and, thus, cause the entire MK venture to become tarnished by their reprehensible behavior. I believe this may be true, but only part of the picture.

    I agree there are indeed some reprehensible acts committed by reprehensible people in the MK MLM. However, I don’t believe the problem would be solved by merely picking these bad individuals out and removing them from the MK venture. Consider the quagmire presented by the drunk sociopath. Some would suggest there could be wonderful improvement if interventions could successfully help the sociopath achieve sobriety. The real kicker is, achieving sobriety (a great idea in any case) still leaves you with a sociopath. Maybe a sober sociopath, but a sociopath nonetheless.

    You can remove all the “bad people” from the MK MLM you want. You’d still be left with an MLM. I’m suggesting to you this is the real problem. Many have observed that people fail (and get injured) by design in this business paradigm. The problem at hand is systemic, not individual. And, it seems to me, blaming the “bad people” is all part of the con, the MKC projection and deflection of responsibility for the confidence scam they propagate. No, it seems to me, until the larger problem, the underlying problem is address, the best people can do is avoid the MK MLM scam. But, very apparently, that’s just my opinion, and it’s a lonely one to have here.



  31. Blargle! *runs around with plastic bags, a spade, and bleach*

    You guysssssss....Quit pooping and quit stepping in it and tracking it around! I have more to do with my time than just clean, you know! :P

    The thing is that when I post a product review here, I'm preaching to the choir pretty much. Out among strangers, fuhgeddaboutit. Especially considering that when I'm minding my own business, shopping for groceries or cake decorating supplies, people take one look at me and snatch their children up and scoot right away, muttering some baloney under their breath about "satanists". Derr, if I were a serial killer, wouldn't I be at Lowe's buying chainsaws and axes and not at Michael's buying icing bags, cake pans, spatulas, and food coloring? *SIGH* Why look, a super-satanic Wilton cake pan in the shape of a carousel horsie! Evil pink and blue icing for one of those terrifying ritual baby showers! *bangs head on desk repeatedly*

  32. Blessed,

    First of all, congratulation on - yet again - managing to use an ugly societal ill (alcoholic sociopath) to take a sneaky shot at MK. Your well of 'creativity' never ceases to amaze.

    One could argue that a sober sociopath is better than the drunk one, in that you can begin to deal with the other symptoms, having eliminated the one that would otherwise exaggerate or distort the underlying symptoms.

    To carry that over to your MK observation, perhaps removing the 'bad apples' (impossible by the way) would allow a closer scrutiny of the more inherent flaws.

    That said, I think mk4me and myself (as well as several other members) would agree that there are indeed flaws in the the business model that Mary Kay uses. However, any rational person (in my opinion) will recognize that any business model, any distribution system, any sales force will inevitably suffer from flaws that create problems. Problems for consumers, problems for sales force members, problems for the corporate hierarchy, etc, etc.

    There is no perfect system, and no matter how you craft a sales method, people will always find ways to abuse it to their benefit. And, contrary to current, popular belief, there are no victim-less crimes.

    What you seem to be confusing is Multi level marketing with pyramid schemes.

    I am well aware of the phrasing "product based pyramid scheme", and I understand that you and many on Pink Truth think that is what Mary Kay is. However, I have seen no evidence to support this. Some (as we are now calling them) "bad apples" indeed try to create a product based pyramid scheme in order to enrich themselves quicker. But if you look at the model that Mary Kay promotes, there is nothing that supports this conclusion.

    It is for this reason that I am so adamant about this site not being "PRO" or "ANTI" Mary Kay, but "PRO" common sense and "PRO" logical, rational, observation of FACTS.

    Now, I feel like we are beginning to see a more sober "blessed" that may be ready to deal with specific symptoms you have observed and try to work to the root of what caused them in your experience and the experiences of others.

    Perhaps I am wrong?

  33. LOL @ Miranda! Thinking about you all Gothed out at Michaels in the cake decorating section!

    Now wheneever I go in there I'm gonna think of you! I think its cool! you do your thing girl!

  34. I’m not sure which message is screaming louder from your text Dave,

    - I’ve (Dave) never spent much time with a sociopath, or

    - I’ve (Dave) not spent much time around those involved in and promoting an MLM...


  35. yup, guess i was wrong.

    No problem. let me know when you are.

  36. Sorry Dave, I see what you're referring to now. Sorry I missed that.


  37. Blessed, what no comment the marriage thing from my above comment?

    Is there any validity to my point in your opinion?

  38. mk4me,

    Blessed will almost always ignore valid points. His lack of comment on that one probably can be used to infer that your point is valid.

    Well done.

  39. Foreverpink...I seriously dress the same everywhere I go except that I get dressed *up* for the club. Home, Michael's, work,'s just my all purpose look 'cause it's *me*. I'm not sure what goes through some people's heads...I can't imagine being scared of anyone who's buying a carousel horsie pan and accessories for a baby shower or a kid's birthday, do I know? The people at Michael's like me 'cause I'm a regular customer. duuuude I bought this cutting and embossing fondant roller and I made these cakes that looked like wrapped gifts and the ribbons/bows were fondant. It was so spiffy!

    arrrgh my head hurts. Blasted rain/mold/sinuses. owwww.

  40. Mk4me,

    I’m sorry I’ve not responded to your comment before now (I’ve had a crazy few days).

    You said:

    “I have come to the conclusion that those that get too caught up in the rah rah, have no other rah rah in their lives and are filling a need that they are missing elsewhere.”

    Sure, if the marriage was experiencing difficulties, (a lack of Rah Rah), the Mary Kay MLM “Dream” could seem like a wonderful find. In fact, I’d bet there are plenty of husbands more than willing to take a financial loss in order to provide their wife with a diversion, however expensive, which keeps the wife occupied and out of the husband’s concerns for significant periods of time. Well worth the cost for some, perhaps.

    You go on to suggest...

    “I do not think Mary Kay destroys marriages, I believe many of the relationships were in trouble before and it was just the straw that broke the camels back.. just as if another man wooed your spouse away, why would he be able to woo her away? Because he is providing something she isn't getting at home from her man.”

    So then, you seem to be suggesting vulnerable women (those struggling with substandard marriages) are more apt to become victimized by the MK MLM? Hey, maybe in some cases this is true. It’s not been my experience though.

    It’s been my experience that the MK MLM targets women with two essential requirements: the potential IBC must be breathing and must have breasts. And hey, some director-wanna-bes have been known to sign up consultants that never existed (there goes the breathing requirement) and I believe I’ve heard a few men actually became IBCs (so there goes the gender thing). But, largely, those are the two requirements. Beyond that, all other variables are truly peripheral.

    Let’s face it, the MK MLM isn’t looking for a select caliber of woman; they’re not sorting through resumes screening those with and without desired qualifications. Please tell me about some cases in which the MKC said, “Sorry, we don’t want to contract with you as an IBC.” This MLM will happily injure anybody with a credit card and dreams to exploit. This MLM just wants the next schmuck willing to say “yes.” Frankly, life would be so much simpler if those willing to bilk their fellow man (woman) all wore black capes and black masks over their eyes. And never forget the truly ingenious component of this scam: the woman has to agree to get involved. The people who put this scam together are geniuses, simply geniuses.

    Why not think ahead to the days when you’ll shake your head wondering, “How could I have ever become involved in such a scam”? And with this thought in mind, just begin your exit. Why be cannon fodder for the MK MLM mess? Did ya ever stop to wonder why MKC never takes a chances on their IBCs? It’s a win-win scenario for the MK MLM. If you as an IBC stick around for a while, hey great! If you get out as quick as you got in, hey we’re fine (MK MLM); there’ll be more in the churn line right behind ya!

    Consider Shaw and David. Shaw is gone from what I can tell. She, as I understand it, was at one time so caught up in the dream she was a contributing editor here on this site. And consider Dave. The fun for him (seems to me) was beating up on Tracy at Pink Truth and debating me (along with beating me up too). He has become less and less a champion for the Mary Kay MLM. In fact, from some of his comments, is seems as though he may trip if he backs away from the MK MLM any faster... Sharp guy, that Dave...


  41. Blessed I think you mean Shay, not Shaw.
    Who r we to wonder why she doesnt post anymore. You dont post as often as you used to..but that did not mean that you had a change of heart, so why do you think that about anyone else?

    When I came into MK, I was told that when building a team, only offer the opportunity to women that you would feel comfortable buncking with at seminar. In other words, if you feel she is not trustworthly, or friendly or whatever and if you feel she would not get along with you on the most basic level, then dont invite her on your team. We are not out here signing up anyone with a SS#. I know of a lady right now, who has showed interest, but I know the type of person she it..and I will not be interviewing her. She is self centered, not to mention lazy and whiney. So I know MK would not be a good fit for have to be others focused to really make it and stay in this business, she is not a good candidate. She has mentioned it to me twice and I just change the subject each time. She is an aquaintance not a friend. So you r wrong about that.

    I was niether vulnerable nor did I have a credit card at the time. But I signed up because my consultant realized that I loved the product. So you are wrong about that as well.

    You ask us why dont we just admit things, well why dont you just admit that MK is not the boogie man that you want it to be. Despite you and PT s ranting, this company is growing and shows no signs of slowing down. Sorry to tell you that the complaints that you and others like you have done nothing to stop many of us from enjoying this business and making money from it.
    We are taught to approach business minded women, thats the type of lady I want on my team. But a lot of times you never know if a woman has issues in her life, so if MK can be an outlet for her then so be it. You never know who would be a good fit for this biz, but If I know personally that they would not, I am not gonna ask them to hear about the opportunity.

    Character goes a long way, those without character do shady things to make it MK, they get caught and then they end up on PT, complaining about how they got caught doing something they should not have done in the first place.

    And could you please answer questions with attempting to push boundaries of vulgarity next time. That seems to be your MO

  42. Foreverpink,

    You’re right. I was thinking of “Shay” rather than “Shaw.” Regarding my presumptuousness as to why she is not posting so much, again, you’re absolutely right. Good point.

    I read your paragraphs explaining how you’re selective about those whom you approach to offer the “opportunity.” I’ve often thought a useful t-shirt for woman to wear would say across the front:

    STOP, I’m not sharp enough to ever join the Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM”

    What with the warm chatting, the cold stalking, etc., etc., you have to wonder how many women could clearly understand and appreciate the valuable utility of such a garment.

    You said, “Character goes a long way...” I agree with you. If only the universe of women assaulted by the MK MLM was limited to women with questionable character... Gee, what a better world we’d live in...(please add your own appropriate background music here). The truth is, I believe, (although you and some select others may have differing individual practices) this MLM targets, largely, all women. You’re particularly vulnerable to being approached by a lady peddling the “dream” if you’re a woman of faith, have an outgoing personality, want to work from your home, you trust others by default and appreciate affirmation from peers. ( that really narrows the field down, doesn’t it?)

    And finally, I believe you asked me to stop “...attempting to push boundaries of vulgarity next time.” First of all, I usually don’t have to attempt, it comes so naturally (only kidding.... com’on now will ya? Have a sense of humor...!!!) Please do, though, help me learn to become more of a gentleman. Madam, you need not utter the questionable words aloud, but please do cut-&-paste them in a reply so I might know which vulgarities you’re referring to and, hopefully, become (ultimately) that much more refined form the lesson. Thanks.


  43. why the references to breast..why would you even have to say that. Every human has breast, you have breast..
    so why did you have to single it out as if you were making a comment about women and their anatomy. It had no place in the post except for shock value. Better for you to say "anyone that is breathing.." instead of "anyone who is breathing and has breast." You know excactley what you were doing and saying.. you dont always have to push the limits to make your point.

  44. I realize they are in the minority, but I have met male MK consultants. They were in my unit when I was in MK. So, indeed, female boobies are not required. Said male consultants sold plenty of product. Women like to get attention from attractive men, so they capitalized on this to organize skin care classes and do sales.

  45. Foreverpink,

    First of all, I used the word “breasts” not “breast.” Maybe it’s a symmetry thing, I’m not sure. And what’s more, for any being who’s ever had a microcosm of testosterone course through their veins, the difference between “breast” and “breasts” is supple, yet pendulously substantial. I’ve read approximately 80% of communication is effectively lost when the spoken word is reduced to mere text, sans the bounce and sway of body language, dangling inflection, perky delivery and uplifting presentation. So than it’s only roundly natural for me to be as descriptive as possible when endeavoring to endow my written communication with voluptuously, descriptive words. Further, please note I didn’t use words like boo..., well you know, any number of dozens of street terms to enliven my description. Don’t I get any credit for that? And as for your contention that every human has “breast...,” well, maybe some of us got a more rounded diet when growing up, ya know, more vitamins, etc. Whatever it was, I can testify there’s a phenomenal, extraordinary difference between the male and female breast(s). Maybe it’s ‘cause I was raised a country boy, I’m not sure.

    I’ll tell ya what I am sure of, by golly! The difference between what you and I believe “...push the boundaries of vulgarity” provides for a stark contrast! You’re bothered by my use of the word “breasts” but you’ve no compunction over remaining largely silent about the continued exploitation of unsuspecting women for profit by the May Kay Cosmetics MLM. What gives? For me, and fortunately more and more each day, the vulgarity is the continuous gaming of women perpetrated by the Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporation and its minions. For heaven’s sake Foreverpink, even the federal government (the FTC) has attempted to curb the vulgarity of what the MK MLM does to women and their families! You’re worried about my use of the word “breasts”? ...and no mention of the vulgarities committed by the MK MLM?!?


  46. firstly who cares if I left off an "s" or not. You know exactly what I mean. Now you wanna play dumb?

    Claim whatever hormones you want to claim, you know good and well what I mean when I say every human being has breastS! Your comment was typical of you pushing the limits of vulgarity, getting called on it and then trying to act as if thats not what you meant.
    I did not say your were vulgar..I said you were pushing the limits, as you often do. Cant you make a point without doing this?

    and no I dont think what Mary kay does is vulgar. You can call it what you want, and thats your choice. I dont believe that Mary Kay preys on "unsuspecting women" so I cant participate in your extremist views. R there people out there who prey on unsuspecting people..yes in just about every organization, but to act as if all Mary Kay consultants are taught and encouraged to do this is completly wrong and insulting. So what r you gonna do, stay home and never interact with anyone or anything so no one will ever "prey" on you?

    you are so bitter and overwhelmed by your hatred for all things Mary kay that you defy any sort of logic. You think that everyone should just agree with you just because of what happened to you. Why save all of your bitterness for Mary Kay, why not pick on other MLM models like Avon or Tupperware. Since you wont do this, it seems to me that you have no credibility, and everything you say is based on bitterness.
    You act as if Mary kay is the worse thing that could ever happen to a woman. I can think of hundreds of things that are way worse than failing in Mary Kay. And if one beleives that Mary Kay is the worst thing that has ever happened to them, then that person really doesnt have a lot to complain about in my opinion.

    So quit your belly aching and get on with your life.

  47. Foreverpink,

    Did ya see Miranda just used the word "boobies." Isn't that a bit more out of line than "breasts" (by your standards)? You gonna take her for a walk behind the woodshed too?


    P.S: Miranda, for the record, the word "boobies" doesn't bother me. Watch yourself, though. I think it tears up Foreverpink.

  48. Blessed,
    No woodshed for Miranda, but you on the other hand can take up a permanent residence there.

    You can continue to ignore the point I was trying to make if you want and try to make it into something else to draw attention away from your obnoxious comment. I am not offended by the word breasts or the word boobies. Its not even about that and you know it, its your analogies that bother me and the context in how you used the words.

    If you are going to start an argument, at least have the decency to stick to the real issue. You strike me as the type of person who will throw and rock and then hide your hand. Start something and then try to act innocent when folks react. I am starting to think you have a textbook personality disorder. I also think you were the MK consultant and not your wife like you state. You are way too invested in this "crusade", most men, after a while, could care less about a cosmetic company.

  49. Please again tell me the point your were trying to make which I am purportedly trying to avoid. Thanks.


  50. Blessed, well you get the award, you managed even to disgust forever, who has the patience and calmess of well, someone better than myself - I still believe at the risk of hitting below the belt, that you are speaking out so loudly about mk because you feel like a dunce for falling for the "hype" - it is only suppose to be "poor innocent, vulnerable woman who fall pray to the horrific mean monster of mk" - not the big strong testosterone infused macho he man type. So what happened to you that you fell for it hook line and sinker accornding to your very own testomonial?

    Normally I enjoy engaging in a good debate with you but, I think this time you pushed the envelope.

    I also feel you are not being funny any more I am "hearing" disrespect.

    If you can not play nice, go play in the litterbox aka as "pt" - they love your novels.

    and they will pray for you and quote bibical scriptures for you and manipulate and bully all that don't agree.

    Just cuz we have breasts, boobs, t*tties, etc and not a "johnson" doesn't mean we don't have a brain.

    I have had a pissy day (not the busines part of my day - mr mk4me needs some midol) what the h*ll - is there a full moon tonight? so I am going to bed.

  51. Its the way that you have compared MK to terrible crimes like prostitution, etc..

    ITs the way you assume that all of us are dumb and cant think for ourselves..

    and now you want to reduce us to body parts by saying all we are looking for is someone who is breathing with breasts..

    Its so typical of you to comment this way..and you know it and its insulting for you to act like you need me to clarify it, but I only did it so no one would think I was trying to ignore your questions like you often do.

  52. Foreverpink,

    Here’s the bottom line: I do believe the MK MLM targets any woman breathing. In order to survive, it must maintain a constant supply of new bodies churning through it. I’m not suggesting you will believe this. I am stating that’s the way I see it. I am very purposely provocative. I employ my approach with no apologies. Are you ready to apologize for propagating an entity which exploits women for profit? Don’t hurry; I’m not holding my breath waiting.

    What the MK MLM does to woman surpasses vulgarity. In too many instances it’s downright obscene! I won’t be acquiescing to any histrionic complaints suggesting I’ve trod upon the sensibilities of any Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM apologist. So many of us survivors recognize the MK MLM as the infectious social parasite it is; we make this observation with candor. So then, if the voice of a MK MLM survivor bothers you, well tough!

    And please do tell me, what is it you believe tipped you off about your observation that I’m actually a former female IBC rather than the former MK MLM husband I purport to be?


  53. Blessed,

    You said, "...I am very purposely provocative. I employ my approach with no apologies..."

    This blog is intended to be a place where civil, non-provocative conversation happens.

    In this very post, I expressed the reason that I have allowed your provocative posts to continue, and - as I have felt it was beneficial - I have even allowed more of your provoking to continue.

    However, I will have to ask you to stop now. This conversation, as has been observed, has strayed far from any form of being useful to anyone. If you can't state your opinions about Mary Kay in ways that are not intended to provoke wild reactions, please don't post them here anymore.

    Thank you.

  54. RE: the "conversation" that is now being interrupted, I know that it will be difficult for everyone to not respond to the questions asked, but if it can't be done in a non-provocative way, I ask that you simply let it rest.

    Thank you.


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