Thursday, May 21, 2009

Inquiring Minds?

Anti- mkers seem to constantly complain that Mary Kay never makes a consultant "prove that they are selling product." Sales are reported on what is ordered and not what is sold and the Company should make consultants report and prove retails sales. At first some may say, oh yes, that will make all the difference. Giving this statement some thought, my first reaction was - I don't want to expend the time or energy it would take for me to reproduce my records to forward them to MK. Second, I am self-employed, not an employee, I never agreed to sell a certain amount and I should not be expected to "report" what I sell like I have big brother watching me. I am classified self-employed which means I should not have to report to anyone other than myself. I also am intelligent enough to know that if I don't need the product, I am not going to buy the product to "buy" an $1800 pink toaster. This is America, if I want to buy $200 or $2000 or $20,000 worth of products that is a right I am given - whether my decison is smart or not is another issue all together.

Now that my rant is over... the point I was trying to lead up to, is what would even change? I have read on pt about consultants buying their cars, units, top director trips, recruit fake consultants to finish diq, activating consultants without their knowledge, piggy-back returned product on someone else's product return because they had too much to send back so they added it to someone else's return to get the money back but doing this screws a director that has done her no wrong. All unethical, or illegal - all dishonest - so why or what would prevent them for recording fake sales and still buying their recognition and prizes? After having my eyes open at what some individuals will do to "succeed" and being in shock, seriously feeling naive that people would even think of such things - now nothing surprises me. So in the long run, what would reporting actual sales to MK actually prove - with the "confessions" of many on pt, I am sure many "fake" sales would be reported just as non necessary inventory orders are placed.

and I continue to read the retorts to any statement of fact a neutral/pro mk posters makes to the extent of... we have soooo mnay years of experience here Ms. 123 has 30 yrs, Ms. 345 has 10, Ms. XYZ was a DIQ, Ms Poo has gone on top director trips but everyone of them post how glad they are to be out of MK and how much debt they had and how they had to declare bankruptcy, returned $20,000 in product and that return check will only put a dent in there debt... blah blah blah.... how can these two statements both be true.... if they were truely that successfully, they truely wouldn't have been that far in debt. So, why would I listen to someone that couldn't turn a profit when I can and I haven't compromised my ethics, beliefs, just because they couldn't find a way to do it, is not, and never will be proof that it can not be done, it is simply proof that "THEY" were not able to. Oh, and some of us are just reality based, many of us don't live in any fog and don't only look at things with rose colored glasses. haha, we are "balanced"! So in review, what exactly would requiring us to report our sales to Corporate prove?


  1. I would prove absolutely nothing. People can fake the sales slips just like they do other things. You pretty much said it all in your post. There will always be unethical/deviant people out there "faking it to make it". While it sucks that people like that are out there...there is nothing really that can be done about them.

    The honest ones like all of us just need to keep trucking along and do our thing.

    I hope that made sense...I am all medicine heady from this terrible sinus infection I have been fighting for a week now! UGGHH!

  2. That's hard would it be to print fake receipts?

  3. Right On! There is nothing more that can be said you have already said it all. Avon or Shaklee or any direct sales company who drop ships or where you buy inventory doesnt require that you prove you sold so much. Im sorry I dont buy the excuse that MK is a cult, maybe a little more positive thinking brainwashing but all sales companies do that and they just want to prove that if you WORK and take the nos you can have a successful business. Every person who has made it in business has gotten more NOS than the average human being.

  4. Believe me, PT will be the first to suggest that all the sales slips are false, because once again, no body can sell this stuff remember?

    They ask for proof, and even if you gave it to them, they would still say its not enough.

    Rules are made for honest people because dishonest people will not follow the rules no matter how many you make.

    The directors relationship with the consultant is crutial because a director can probably tell if the consultant is only ordering and not selling or vise versa. A weekly acomplishment sheet with thousands of dollars of product sold, but the consultant has not placed any orders that would carry that amount is bound to raise suspision. Or a consultant that placed an order for thousands of dollars worth of product, but is not reporting any activity, or placing any orders to replenish anything would raise suspicision too (sorry cant spell today!)

    I can tell when my team members order because it tells you on the intouch site. so I know directors can tell when we order (right MK4ME?) and how much and how often. If our activity doesnt match, then maybe the director can step in and help her or find out whats going on.

    Its not MK corportates job to do this, they have no way of finding this out in a manner that would be acurate.

  5. So right forever, we can see ever order, date, amount, etc.. as well as new agreements and even product returns.

    There will always be a chance a consultant can slip thru the cracks if she doesn't attend meetings or if she is adopted because you may not hear frequently from her, but the "core" unit, I can always tell when a consultant is working or not working just from the communication, etc...

    I can tell you right now, if I tried telling me people to order to earn a prize, etc... they would tell me to.... go ahead and fill in the blanks... but they have had it drilled into them you order when and only you need product - I don't ever want to loose a consultant because she just as too much inventory sitting on a shelf getting dusty. I don't want to loose a consultant because she has her business on a charge card.

    If you never get into the cycle of bringing the new people in with huge orders and hoping someone else will order, you never have to worry about how much a person starts with because as long as she gets started, her orders will happen as she sells and she will build her inventory based on what she knows she has clients for.

  6. It all comes down to the quality of the deception.

    Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporation is masterful. If you’re not simply left in awe at the level of expertise this organization employs, well, you’re just not giving credit where it’s due. In my opinion, these folks are masters at the art of communication.

    Years ago I recall an author suggesting there are few absolutes in our world aside from matters of faith. “‘Truth’ is,” he suggested, “largely the product of the most effective communicator.” MKC has an established history of very effectively communicating their verison of the truth. Colleen referred to “...maybe a little more positive thinking brainwashing.” Well, I’ve gotta wonder about that Colleen. Seems to me the Mary Kay Cosmetics cup of “positive thinking brainwashing” has already runneth over.

    If, as a random target, you get swindled, conned or just simply tricked and suffer a financial or other injury, well, it’s just not a good day. But consider how much more aggravated the same injury is when you’re targeted in the con by someone who used your personal faith, your trust in others, your interest in spending more time with your kids, your interest in affirmation from peers, etc., to maneuver you into playing a major role in pulling off the con. Well, that’s an even worse day.

    And then there’s one of the more unique characteristics of this ingenious scam: the guilt factor. When the marks emerge from the fog they’re often engulfed in the MLM imposed shame of feeling like (and being told) they’re a failure. Imagine that, failing in a marketing paradigm designed to ensure the vast majority of participants fail! Regardless of how disgusted you may be about the realization a business can get away with so rampantly victimizing women, you’ve nonetheless just gotta stand up and applaud the sophistication of the Mary Kay Cosmetics scam. It’s just awesome!

    So then, mk4me, (by the way, I hope you’re doing well) count me as one not so concerned about IBCs proving what they’re selling. For me, the issue is the larger picture, the rampant deception which is so much a part of selling Mary Kay Cosmetics. Whether you call it deception, distortion, omission, or just plain lying, it’s all part of the Mary Kay Cosmetics scam. Yea, it all comes down to the quality of the deception. The MK MLM is damn good at deception, this I’ve learned.

    There’s something I’ve not figured out, though. If Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporation distributes quality products (and many believe they do), why can’t they adopt a distribution model less injurious to women and their families? Go figure...


    P.S.: Hi Dave.

  7. Hi Blessed - sorry, good try, I believe if a person can be manipulated whether in or out of MK, they will be. I have never been trained on how to manipulate. I am not local to my senior, I am not even close to another director, I am pretty much self taught. I have been single & married, single w/kids, and married w/kids during my MK career. I can not afford to buy my success. If I wasn't making money, I would go find another job because I have bills that need to be paid. If I was working any other job I would be putting in at least a 40 hour week with commuting time added to that - so no matter how badly I loved my family - I must earn my income and I would be away from family for that amount of time. So unless someone can afford not to work, then the sacraficing family time for MK time was a choice. So they tried MK, or any other form of earning an income and don't like the trade off - the money isn't worth the time away from their family - so they quit and now they are happy because they have all the time for their family, then they didn't need the income from MK anyway - so how did that manipulation work? (imho, it is because they wanted more than they had & don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with that) but there is going to be a trade off time/money - if one finds they feel that the time away is not worth the money they are making then it is simple, they give up the MK.

    I am a business/accounting major - and a "Northerner" - I feel my job as a director is to instruct how to demonstrate the product and keep track of your business first, master that, then you can if you are interested build a team. It is not my job to hold a sermon or church service, nor do I want to.
    If someone doesn't think I am a good person from my conduct, then telling them I am a good person shouldn't, if someone has a ,make any difference. Make sense?

  8. cont'd

    I can tell you - I love my husband very much, I took an oath to love, honor, etc... I wouldn't turn around and lie to him because some charming stranger told me to keep it from him. Uh.... excuse me - actually I would tell that person what I thought and run for the hills. Excuse me? So some charming man that is very successful and can recite spripture, says, it is okay, trust me, let's have an affair, just don't tell you husband
    and it will be fine. Sorry Blessed, same diff.

    Another thought, we have Catholics, Jewish, Atheistists, Wickens in MK, how are they being manipulated with the "Christian Manipulation"? - hmmmm.... wouldn't work would it. and yes, I do have all types of faiths in my unit. I love them all. But the bottom line is book your appointments, sell the products, order more and keep selling. If you ain't making money you aren't going stick around and i don't want to ever feel like I am chasing the next body. I want to know if I take the time to train a consultant and ivest my time in her, I want her to be around for awhile.

    It is very similiar to what we hear about it is less expense to retain a customer than to attrack a new one? Well, the same theory holds true with consultants. They are just every bit as valuable as consultants.

    I do believe we have quality products and love them. (I firmly believe this contributes to anyone one's success - belief in their product) as I have read on pt, so many of them said they never liked the products and didn't feel they were worth the money, (gee, I wonder why they had trouble selling, booking, etc...) no wonder they felt "fake" -

    I couldn't afford to go find a store front and hire employees and wouldn't want to man a store for 12 hours a day and work 6 -7 days aweek. I like having product available, just today I came home to 4 (FOUR) orders requesting product before the weekend. My clients will have them tomorrow. So as you continue to try to destroy and shut down Mary Kay, you are trying to take away my career- and I love my products, my clients, my unit members and this Company. But... it is that a Company - it is not a religion. Mary Kay is not a God, she was a remarkable woman but a woman still the same and she put on her panty hose just like me - one leg at a time.

  9. and as far as that saying that 90% (or whatever) loose money in an mlm... I disagree, if you join mk or any other company to get your product at cost, you will not be making money, this doesn't mean that you are actually "loosing" money - you are simply spending money. Others will loose and others will make... it is that way in any retail establishment whether it is an mlm or not.

    okay, I'm done

  10. Imagine for a moment the futility of attempting to elicit from you proof of your “success” in the Mary Kay MLM. That’d be, in my opinion, a waste of time. Ya see, “success” is a concept we all define for ourselves. Some folks are content and describe themselves as “successful” regardless of what they earn because of the pleasure they derive from their chosen vocation. Others characterize themselves as successful because they make a bunch of money, even though they don’t particularly like what they do for a living. Bottom line: if you are happy with what you’re doing and it meets your needs, you’re “successful.” I regularly have occasion to interact with many “successful” burglars, robbers and drug dealers. Now, if you begin to establish objective standards for what “success” means, well, then it’s an entirely different conversation.

    Regardless of how you’ve defined “success” for yourself, don’t ya ever feel, well, complicit? Do you ever regret association with an organization so deeply enmeshed in deceptiveness? In your mind’s eye picture a pie chart illustrating the portion of MK’s resources expended in efforts to get passed “NO”! Anything strange about this picture? Have you ever considered the possibility the MLM distribution system is so flawed it may be tainting what are (in the eyes of some) quality products? Considering your years of experience with this MLM, have you not yourself seen many examples of the abuses repeatedly described in testimonials from survivors of the Mary Kay MLM experience?

    I believe Peter Blood captured it well when he said, “No credible business integrity may be attached to any MLM or network marketing company or distributor because of the unavoidable, inimical effects of the recruiting system used by MLM. Those involved are either naive or they are motivated by a deliberate desire to make money from the inherently planned, and ultimately inevitable, failure of the over-whelming majority of those who might be attracted to their 'businesses' by their efforts.”

    If there is any credibility in his observations, those who participate in the MK MLM are exclusively either

    1. Naive, or
    2. Willing and ready to make
    money from all those who “fail” in the MK MLM

    In which category to you see yourself, one or two?

    I’ve said often blogs sure do come up short as a means of capturing people’s personalities and individual qualities. I’ve got to say, though, from everything I’ve ever read authored by you, I’m convinced you must be a really pleasant, caring person. Wouldn’t the entire issue be minimized if they targeted people who were rude, disrespectful, and had no ability to interact with others.... but no, the Mary Kay MLM targets wonderful people like you and my wife.

    So, you miss Dave? Does it bother you he’s apparently no longer as willing to be a torch carrier for the Mary Kay MLM “opportunity”?


  11. Whether or not Dave left this blog or is busy is not the point Blessed. The point is manipulation comes in all shapes and sizes and companies. Enron, Bernie Madoff and others. I have seen MORE manipulation and a** kissing in Corporate America than I have ever seen in MK. Dont get me wrong Im all for having jobs and we need people to be employed to buy our product (or any other product for that matter). There are some blogs on the Internet (jobvent I think is one of them) I can tell some of these people are telling the truth where they worked YEARS to get a promotion or more money and didnt because someone is sleeping with the boss and working overtime and not getting paid for it. Dont get me wrong an NSD flashing her jewelry may tempt someone to come into MK but I think of that as more of a dangling carrot than I do out and out manipulation. MK has things in writing and a website and others you can go to for help. I dont care if a director says something to a consultant that doesnt stop the consultant from selling. Directors (some) misrepresent the company and we have seen it in ALL companies. Its not that we think MK is perfect its just that the rap they get is not an isolated matter and its not like you cant leave if you dont want to. There is a positive environment in this company that is not phony and to me that is far more rewarding than the day to day fear and manipulation that some salaried employees experience. I had a job making a 35k base with an average commission check of 1000
    a month and I was told I had stock in the company and we were growing and you are doing a great job I missed quota 1 week and I was gone!
    I was hurt and got over it but from what I have experienced and witnessed (and it seems to happen to the employees that bust their chops) manipulation goes on much more in the work environment than it does in MK or direct sales. Im not talking about corporate direct sales I mean (MK, Pampered Chef, Shaklee, Tupperware, etc.)

  12. I have no clue who Peter Blood is and so his statement may or may not have merit. His statement doesn't make it true any more than if you or I say something. It is his opinion and just like ******S hmm.. while everyone has one and they all usually stink. It still boils down to one's perspective. In this world there are people who will take advantage of others and those that don't - it is not restricted to mlm's, direct sales, or network marketing products. There is abuse in manufacturing, retail, and even in personal relationships all the way back to Adam and Eve wasn't Eve manipulated? If you believe in the Bible teachings, we are suppose to think and make the right choices even if we are persuade to do wrong. I believe not falling to "temptation" describes it.

    Any sales position suggest you don't just accept a "no" - but I have to confess Blessed, you could ask about anyone that knows me, "pushy sales person" would be the last phrase they would use to describe me. I simply love the products, do an awesome demonstration and if they want to buy great, if not - no problem. If they want to book- great if not - no problem. Perhaps my more laid back attitude has kept me short of going on the trips or being a "top" director, I honestly don't know. But I love what I do, earn money, don't manipulate or abuse those in my life and am happy and content with my life, family, unit, and middle class lifestyle. I have no desire to be rich because my life is full. I am grateful for what I have and remember every time I covet more that so many in the world are not as fortunate as I am. (Okay, I am not happy my hair is starting to go gray and I now need to color it to hide them and it is alot harder to take of weight).

    I do not work MK 24/7 and I have a very full life with MK just being a part of it and my career. "Sugar-sharp", I am not. Can I look professional, yes..but I can yield a chain saw to cut wood for the outdoor woodburner that heats the house and if mr. mk4me isn't around, bundle up and load up the stove (takes wood 2x/day), we snowmobile and motorcycle, are on the pit crew of a late model race team. I have chaperoned cheerleading competions, wrestled with the boys - they cheat and tickle me and then I loose (5 kids between the two of us and two grandkids with #3 on the way) - hike, ride bike, take care of a house with no housekeeper - cook a killer lasagna, mean chilli, according to everyone the best deviled eggs in the world. Play poker (have a lousy "poker" face and tend to just donate to the pot)and set back with friends - and could probably beat most at a yagerbomb competition, yummy. I love to dance, exercise and play Texas horse shoes... and that is just now, I won't bore you with my past.

    I will not disagree there are some directors that turn me off but there are many that I respect. I will not judge an entire company on a few. And politely but I do speak my mind and offer my 'opinion' when I teach and train whether it be poplular or not. Should have seen the looks when I started a speech with "I hate warm chatting"... but then there is a difference between chatting if the opening presents itself and going out to stalk people.
    I don't see everyone in MK that didn't make money as a victim. I do not disagree that some have been - but for the most one should figure it out before long.

    As with anything if you read the literature from MK, study, learn, practice - the consultants guide, etc... and follow what is written, it works.

    You have always been respectful and complimentary to me and I do thank you for that. I also believe you and your wife are probably lovely, kind people. But I do not feel I was "targeted" by Mary Kay or by my recruiter. haha, actually I was far from a pushover back than. I have mellowed greatly with age. I heard it all, I started with a minimum order. Period end of sentence.

  13. p.s. Dave hasn't abandoned us, just has some other commitments - he might not be as visible right now but his opinion remains the same.

  14. Re Dave, he told me so much in an e-mail. Life is busy, things come up. My hope, though, is he and others will see promotion of the MK MLM is not as attractive an activity as it may have been at one time.


  15. Blessed,
    There was one time that I thought that MK was only a good opportunity in the 80s but I must tell you when I saw some whippersnappers come through in 2000 and the early 90s I was wrong.
    Its still good.

  16. Ahhh Blessed,

    So good to see you back.

    I have been thinking lately about what mk4me was alluding to towards the end of this thread lately and I think it would be particularly helpful to you consider.

    You have a great deal of passion and speak out with great boldness against an "enemy", if you will, that has devastated many. On a generic level as well as a personal level, you have seen (and felt the pain of) many "victims".

    While it is admirable that you continue your mission so vocally, I believe that the one you are targeting is not your enemy.

    Your enemy, as mk4me has pointed out, is much (much) older than Mary Kay. Your "enemy" is within human nature. your "enemy" is, for lack of a better word, greed. Or, if you prefer, selfishness. Or pride. You pick it, the problem is not Mary Kay.

    But clearly, instead of facing head on whatever the real problem is, you enjoy taking your frustration out on Mary Kay. It is an easy target. And with your clear ability to declare "truths" and then use those "truths" to prove they are true (Similar to PT and similar to the directors/recruiters that you and PT complain about) you have a virtually endless resource to prevent you from ever dealing with the real problem.

    I hope you can come to forgive me if I don't continue to waste my time helping you with that!

    On the contrary, I created this site to allow a balanced presentation of opinions. To that end, as long as people are chiming in and discussing, my voice becomes less and less necessary. While I do enjoy hearing (or in this case reading) my own voice, that is less important than getting many different opinions and perspectives.

    I know it is hard for you to believe, but just because YOU have decided that I am a "shill" for Mary Kay does not mean that I am. So, my lack of participation here does not necessarily mean that I have changed my mind about being a "shill"... it might just mean I never was one.

    (I know that is probably a hard one to digest, I will understand if you can't grasp the concept.)

    Happy Memorial day everyone

  17. Burglars???

    MK4ME is the opposite! She sends me the makeup I ordered, encloses an invoice, and trusts me to mail the check to her in a timely fashion. Which I do.

    That said, if you haven't been stuck in a unit chock full of people who have no business savvy and are teaching the wrong things, you might think this stuff is rare or exaggerated, or that you have to be a dumb @$$ to get taken in by someone who is doing it wrong.

    That isn't so...all you have to be is new and untalented with finances and math. Finances *are* math. I'm a copy editor; I can't even do algebra. I was not able to discern that the stuff my director told me did not work out mathematically to equal a profit. I don't think she was a conniving poo-head; I think she didn't know any better. Her classes never held, either.

    Dave is right about this: The real problem boils down to greed. People who are greedy. They're all over the place, and they're attracted to any company where they think they can make a quick buck. Unfortunately their bucks are extracted from others' pockets. :(

  18. Colleen,

    I hear your point about the prevalence of manipulation in many areas of corporate America. I don’t see this as a mitigating factor in any way decreasing Mary Kay Corporation’s culpability. Mary Kay just does it so well it makes you have those involuntary chill flinches when you think about it, while saying “eeeewwwww” at the same time and squinting your eyes (can you see it?). The accomplished tactics of the Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM add an entirely distinct flavor to the word smarmy.


    Great to hear from ya! I’m still curious about the magnitude of the life changing event you experienced which was so significant as to tear you away from your role as a propagator of the opportunity. And by way of clarification, it wasn’t me who first used the word “shill” to describe your role regarding the Mary Kay Cosmetics “opportunity.” And later on, I believe someone dubbed you not merely a “shill” but a “consummate shill.” You’ve got to admit (don’t ya?) You were a champion for the Mary Kay cause.

    As for the “enemy” you suggest I’m fighting, I don’t believe my motivation is simply about generic greed. I believe the problem at hand is much more than individual shortcomings, it’s the systemic exploitation of individual flaws and attributes that bothers me. I’ve got to shake my head in admiration at times when I look at how successful Mary Kay Corporation has been in the exploitation of women for profit. I’ve often thought the Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporation signature catch phrase would have to change drastically if some semblance of accuracy was required.

    Yea, they’d have to change from:

    “Enriching Women’s Lives”


    “When It Comes to Exploitation of Women, We’re Second Only to Pornography”

    ...or something like that. That needs work. Can anyone come up with a better catch phrase that accurately captures the essence of the Mary Kay Cosmetics fiasco?


    Dave, please consider sharing with us what it takes to prompt transition from zealous promotion of a cosmetics MLM to whatever it is you’re doing now. What happened? (Whatever it is, I hope you and your wife are well.)


  19. Blessed you are a hoot!!

    Thanks for the comedy. Everyone.. Blessed is doing his best to bait all of us into an arguement! (LOL!)
    Comparing MK to porn based on the exploitation of women..
    Yeah right!! You have out done yourself! Blessed wants us to come out and play..he has been away for awhile so we might indulge him for a hot minute...

    Although there is no way to counter that analogy without coming dangeroulsy close to being indecent and I know Dave wont allow that.

    I am sure Dave will set the tone and let us know how far we can go..

  20. Blessed,

    Last night when I was typing, my wife asked me what I was doing. My reply was something to the effect of, "Oh, 'blessed' left a comment and I am responding to him...". She of course asked out of curiosity, "What did he say?" To which I, without a seconds hesitation, responded, "Same old BS". She knew exactly what I meant.

    Sorry to say, I am sticking with what I said in the last comment. I just don't have time to try to get you to think.

    What you see here is what I have always wanted. A place where people can say, "this is what I think of Mary Kay".

    I happen to think that Mary Kay is a company. It has some very strong, positive characteristics and it has some inherent weaknesses and flaws. My wife has been involved for quite some time and enjoys it immensely.

    I, unlike you, will not take that experience and opinion and apply it to the entire company. It is simply me expressing what I see.

    I think that if you consider the quote you mentioned earlier about truth belonging to the best communicator... you should probably realize that (almost) no one on this site is dumb enough to not figure out that you are trying to create a world in which YOUR truth is believable.

    If you keep saying it often enough and loud enough, people are liable to believe anything, right?

    If you keep saying that Mary Kay is... well... all the things you say it is... pretty soon everyone will believe you, right?

    Good luck with that.

  21. foreverpink,

    This is an open discussion. If anyone feels like wasting their time on blessed, they have my blessing.

    Lets just keep in mind that the environment here is meant to be "G" or "PG".

    And yes, if things are getting out of hand, my "delete key finger" is never hesitant.

  22. Thanks Dave,

    and you are right..I wont waste my time..:)

  23. Hey forever, no please, express your thoughts.... no contradicting Dave and I see his point. I agree that we will probably not get Blessed to change his viewpoint, and that is okay, but he does bring the ideas that prompt a discussion pro/con that if you read both sides - may make others think or realize that listening to one side just gives you one side.

    We often hear one side of the story and make an opinion, when we take the time to listen to the other side, we expand our thinking and can usually find that somewhere in between is more accurate and usually both sides can be right and wrong at the same time.

    This is Dave's vision (sorry to be speaking for you and I hope I do it fairly and accurately) but to have a site that makes people "think" not that everything is right or wrong.

    Please share, you never know who may be helped from your perspective. If we didn't have these conversation, we could end up looking like a "pink fogged" site.

    Hope I make some sense but rushing out the door and didn't want to not share my thoughts.

  24. I understand Dave and MK4ME..Its not that I dont want to share my thoughts, Its just that I know that Blessed made that comment in order to be insulting with the hopes to get a reaction and therefore start an arguement. I guess I just did not want to give him the satisfaction.

    It would be, in my opinion, sort of ridiculous to try to explain why MK is NOT in the same relm as porn, any sane person would realize that its not so why should you have to explain it.
    Why should we get into why porn and MK are different...thats just stupid and Blessed knows it..

    Its just Blesseds way of using the most extreme example possible, no matter how far fetched and unrelated it is, in order to try and make a point. He still does not get that he ends up alienating those who might otherwise take a listen to what he has to say..if he only would just tone it down a little.

  25. Shucks just can't walk away from a great discussion. On one hand yes, he does alienate some that would listen to him. But... and I am sure he realizes this too, (Blessed will correct me if I am incorrect) - I am sure that someone that is really in a bad place as far as decisions, choices, etc.... and would prefer to blame others instead of accepting personal responsibility will jump right on his logic.

    That is why I love the discussions.

    I have learned that if I fire something in "defense" it is not going to express what I am trying to say but if I write it and reread it and wait and then adjust accordingly, I can present a solid, logical explanation of my thoughts. I don't want to get into a word war (not suggesting anyone on this site does) but it does stimulate the discussion.

    Am I making any sense at all?
    I am hoping these discussions may help others who perhaps just lurk and are really looking for information.

  26. Mk4me, you are blessed with admirable wisdom (and so are you Dave).

    So then, is “Enriching Women’s Lives” that much less of a stretch than “Exploiting Woman...”? Maybe it’s the whole pornography thing, too distasteful perhaps? But tell me, have you never seen a women exploited by the MK MLM?

    I remember as a kid growing up, ‘bout mid August, during the hot summer nights, we’d sit on the back porch and watch the sparks fly from the electronic bug zapper as the insects seemed to aimlessly fly to their own demise, one after the other (sometimes in large groups). I don’t remember any of the other bugs forcing them into the zapper, no, none of ‘em held little guns to the heads of the others and forced them into the zapper. I do think I recall, though, some of the bugs watching the crowd of bugs flying into the zapper were wearing gaudy business suits with little cut-out slots in the back for their wings. The ones watching applauded and smiled endlessly as all the others were flying headstrong toward the shock of their lives. Yea, it’s amazing where daydreams can take ya as you kick back during some vacation time on a long holiday weekend.

    So Dave, I suppose you’re just not gonna share anything about whatever happened to prompt your withdraw from the debate, or can you tell us what caused you to seemingly take a step or two back?

    And le’me see if I’ve got this right.... You told your wonderful wife my most recent deep thoughts were nothing but “BS”? Dave... I’m crushed! Com’on, even you can admit that not everything I utter is “BS,” can’t ya?


  27. I will be back but if I don't get out the door I will be late for an appointment but Blessed... please are you comparing a woman's brain to that of an insect???? uggg... I am crushed! ;)

  28. Had a few minutes and don't know if this is going to read as it would sound (or any where near what I am trying to express) but I am going to give it a try.

    Blessed, I have seen a few woman exploited that were in MK by another individual. But, I have seen people exploited every where else too including in church. But I do not see an entity exploiting, I see an individual doing it. If you apply your logic, than are you going to compare your (or anyone's) church (or religion or faith) to porn?

    Here is what might be taken wrong... (no matter how you feel about porn) but if it isn't illegal... I can choose not to watch it, buy it, support it, participate in it, etc.... but I don't see that it exploites woman ... or if it does than I see that it exploits woman and also exploits men (unless it is a same gender movie) - Think about it.... most porn stars are willing participants and if they are "big stars" getting big bucks. If they choose to act in this venue - because it will pay them big bucks or because they actually enjoy it, it is there choice - how is that exploiting them?*

    How than because there may be one or two victims of any endeavor does that make the whole thing bad? - Many medicines have side effects... they can save many, many lives or help people get healthy but I am sure they have also caused harmful side effects perhaps even death on a rare few. Should all medicines with any possible side effects be banned? Or does the good outweigh the bad?

    and I am still insulted that as a woman my brain has been compared to that of an insect.

    I thought our brain is what separated us from other species?

    *(I am only referring to legal adults in states that it is legal)- please don't take it to any other level.

  29. o/t - with Miranda's love of makeup and natural ability with techniques and her personality even just over the internet, I honestly believe if she hadn't been frontloaded with too much product and (unnecessary product) for her demographics and potential customer base, she may have still been a hobby or part time level consultant.

    She had a bad MK experience but she looks back, she can see what happened and she is not blaming the Company or all those associated with MK. She also kept an open mind and will give you her true opinion of MK products.

    I just want to tell you "thank you!"

  30. Sure thing!

    As it is, I'm working Job 2 right now at home. Job 3 happens tomorrow. I have a guest arriving...sometime...girl never called! Buh, what was I thinking. Had to take a migraine med. I'm a little fuzzy right now. Wearing cranberry ice with Aromaleigh's color "fox" which is a shimmery pinky beige. They actually make a pretty natural look together.

    Well...time to eat a snack and get back to work.

  31. Mk4me,

    You make some interesting points. First of all, please know I’m not suggesting you or anyone else’s brain is the size of an insect’s brain… ;-)

    Also, I believe pornography does indeed exploit women. Just because there is a victim choice to participate, the possibility of exploitation is not eliminated.

    The concept I’ve attempted to convey on a number of occasions is that of individual verses systemic dysfunction. They are not mutually exclusive. They often, I believe, coexist.

    Consider your local municipality street department and their decision making process to determine where to place traffic lights. The municipality counts the number of accidents at an intersection. This number, combined with the number of complaints about the safety of the intersection, etc., will control whether the municipality will spend the funds to install a traffic light. This just happened down the street at an intersection near where I live. I’ve never had an accident there. Although I’ve heard of (and seen) accidents there, I’m convinced if people would just follow the rules of the road, there would be no casualties. Yet, a decision was made to install a traffic light because the number of injuries had reached an unacceptable level. This is a situation in which dysfunction could no longer be blamed solely on individuals alone (drivers); it reached a point where the intersection itself became too dysfunctional (systemic dysfunction). The point: there are occasions when systemic dysfunction is recognized and correction of individual dysfunction is no longer the sole point of focus. Or, in other words, there comes a time when police stop only writing traffic citations and accident reports (to address individual dysfunction) and additional corrective measures are implemented to address systemic dysfunction (install a damn traffic light!).

    it’s not difficult to think of other examples of problem resolution targeting institutional dysfunction through systemic change rather than merely targeting individual dysfunction . Consider the bill recently signed into law by President Obama significantly tightening regulation of credit card companies. People had complained the credit card companies inappropriately raised interest rates, late penalties, etc. Yet, the credit card companies were not doing anything illegal. Their interest rate and late penalty policies were consistently made available for any consumer who decided to sign up (and read the small print). Nobody held a gun to folk’s heads and forced them to use the credit cards, pay their bills late, or run up too much debt. Somebody, however, decided the injuries (the systemic dysfunction) were too great. Somebody said “ENOUGH”!

    (continued below)

  32. (continued from above)

    Although the parallels are apparent, I don’t seek to solicit in this post input citing the similarities/differences between Mary Kay Cosmetics and credit card companies. I’m also not trying to advocate governmental intervention in the MK MLM fiasco (these are conversations apart from the illustration I’m attempting to present). You’ve read this far, stay with me. I’m getting there.

    Regardless of whether it was drivers who couldn’t consistently come to a complete stop at a stop sign and look both ways before proceeding or credit card users who failed to read the small print and/or manage their finances wisely, there came a point when it was determined systemic change was necessary to address what had become systemic dysfunction. Things got so bad the system had to be changed. Now here’s an important thing to remember, the new traffic light wasn’t installed after only one or two accidents. New credit card company regulations weren’t initiated after only a few individual bankruptcies, etc. There was, historically, a level of causalities in both these scenarios which was at one time acceptable. It was not until the volume of causalities exceeded an acceptable level that systemic change was initiated to correct the dysfunction.

    I assume you’re not a decision maker regarding placement of traffic lights or a government official involved in legislation of regulations. You are, however, from what I’ve read, a compassionate, caring, intelligent individual. I’m not asking when you believe regulations should be enacted to curb the abuses in Mary Kay Cosmetics. I’m not asking what anyone should do to correct the problem. All I’m seeking is your informed opinion about when it is the MK MLM problem moves from an individual to a systemic problem. You’ve already indicated you’ve seen victimization in Mary Kay. Ya know, it could be your opinion that the problem with Mary Kay today is solely attributable to poor behavior by individuals; that’s not what I’m asking, though. What I’m asking is, if it is a problem attributable to a number of individuals, at what point does the problem become systemic?

    Many say the vast majority, who become involved in the MK MLM leave the venture injured (financially, etc,). Maybe you believe otherwise, perhaps only 30% fail. Please know, though, I’m not asking your opinion about how many actually get churned and burned by the dream.

    What I’m asking here is (and thank you for staying with me this long)…

    How many Mary Kay IBC Failures would it take to prompt you to decide this is no longer solely an issue regarding individual shortcomings, but rather a systemic issue? In other words, what’s must the annual churn and burn rate be for MK MLM IBCs before you, Mk4me, conclude there may be a problem with the MK MLM paradigm (a systemic problem)?

    …40%, 60%, 80%, 99%? When do you conclude it’s not so much the IBCs, but the MK MLM itself that is inherently dangerous (systemically dysfunctional)?


  33. Blessed,

    I will answer both of your inquiries at once as they, more or less, answer themselves.

    You asked about me referring to your ravings as BS, and you asked about when the "Mary Kay 'churn and burn'" would go from being considered "individual" to being "systemic".

    You did a fantastic job of describing the difference between individual and systemic problems at traffic lights. You did an excellent job of describing the same difference regarding credit card problems.

    But then you just tack Mary Kay on to these descriptions with little more effort than using the same words (as well as a few cleverly borrowed pink truth words) and then ask the readers of this site to do what you, apparently, have not yet been able to do. Namely, provide the connection of the concept to Mary Kay. Or, at the very least, provide a description of the victimization you allege being at or near systemic.

    I have no expectation that you will actually answer that, but even if you did, you fail to recognize that this is not the place to hold such conversations. The people that put measures in place to prevent unethical behavior from being perpetrated in Mary Kay (your "traffic lights" if you will) are not commentators on this blog.

    In your (more descriptive) illustration of traffic light decision making, you speak of the municipality, the officers that make accident reports and write citations, etc. Mary Kay has these as well. (As do most large companies) They have a legal team, a complaint line, customer service departments, etc.

    If I ran a blog about my town, and someone came on my blog and insisted they I tell them what percentage of "intersection victims" justified labeling a certain intersection "systemic" I would have the same response to that person that I have with you.

    There are other avenues to attempt to bring about change. This is not it.

    This blog is not designed to be Mary Kay's risk management tool. I (and I believe most of my readers) do not believe we are here to declare what sort of tolerances Mary Kay should initiate.

    The fact that you, time and time again, refuse to recognize the intent of this blog and instead insist on trying to push your agenda on the readers and commentators is what causes me to say that your efforts here are BS. It may be very eloquent BS, it may be very deep and insightful (in someones eyes) BS, but it is still BS.

    In the words of the late Chris Farley, "Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of s***. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I've got spare time."

  34. As for the stop/go lights (hee/hee) at intersections, I am sure that before a decisions was made there would be a survey done and see what the number of accidents were at other intersections near the one in questions. If one intersection had 5 in a month, and another one had 3 and another one had 4 but this particular one had 30, it would seem like a sound decision based on the study.

    I believe these stop lights exist in Mk. It is called a contract/agreement that one must sign before becoming a consultant (a legally binding) agreement. There also terms and conditions on the order form/page.

    I see these as "lights". As Dave mentioned I see our legal dept, Corp,and customer service - our yellow lights. If we see or experience someone doing something wrong... these instances need to be reported to MK. MK does investigate issues. I have heard of a new director that when Corporate audited the new unit members found out that some of them did not use there own money.
    This is against the rules in diq...(after you agree to follow the rules of diq) they did not remain a unit. The consultant had to go back thru diq again.

    Last year I know the Company terminated over 900 agreements for illegal activity. This is good.
    See, corny as i may sound.... if we all played by and obeyed the same rules, think of how wonderful things would be.

    (still shaking ahead about insect to zapper comment) ;)

  35. Wow, what a great weekend with my family. I hope ya’ll (Dave, Mk4me, etc.,) had a great holiday weekend too.

    So Dave, my work may take me to your area again in the coming months. Any interest in getting together to do the “buy ya a Coke” type thing?


  36. Blessed - quick question -If you are a willing participate (perhaps even enjoying the activity) how can you also be a victim simotaneously?

  37. Interesting question. One of the first things that pops into my mind is something called co-dependency. This is a phenomena which originated largely as a description of how family members of alcoholics (and other disorders) can inadvertently (and occasionally purposely) enable and promote family dysfunction. The vernacular has expanded to allow use of this term as a descriptor of people or groups who, with usually good intentions, enable a dysfunctional system. This can be a complicated topic; you may want do a Google query on “co-dependency.”

    Another though is participation in cult activity. Many reportedly thought they would not ultimately become victims when they freely joined the Peoples Temple and followed Jim Jones to their mass death in Guyana, during late 1978. Over 900 people became victims of an activity in which they “volunteered” to participate. Maybe you recall, they all committed mass suicide by drinking Kool-Aid laced with poison. Clearly, these folks were victims of an activity in which they volunteered to participate. By the way, from this tragedy came the often used metaphor, “drinking the Kool-Aid,” a phrase frequently used to describe IBCs who’ve become deeply enmeshed in the Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM “pink fog.”

    Prostitution is another example of an activity one joins and ultimately, very often, ends up a victim. It is very often intertwined with the drug use and other illegal activity (i.e., organized crime), as is (I believe), pornography.

    All this having been said, let me also say I am a champion of free personal choice. My hope is more will learn about (and I believe more are) the inherent dangers involved in the Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM. This will enable better informed free choices. The MK MLM is, I believe, clearly, systemically dysfunctional. The vast majority who enter this MLM ultimately exit financially injured or less whole in some other way (I believe anecdotal evidence clearly supports this conclusion). Although some at the top of the pyramid do well financially, for most the best way to win at the Mary Kay MLM is to not play this silly game at all. I hope I’ve answered your question Mk4me. If I’ve not, please let me know more specifically how I can answer.

  38. Blessed,

    WOW!!! Let me just take this moment to be the first one to say - THANK YOU!!!! -

    You finally have participated in the way that I have been asking you too. Perhaps it was by accident, perhaps not, but you have finally set down, in writing, YOUR opinion - and labeled it as such.

    "...The MK MLM is, I believe, clearly, systemically..."

    Operative word(s) being "...I believe..."

    As I have been saying all along, you (and everyone else here) are entitled to your opinion and beliefs.

    You are free to say that you "feel" Mary Kay is like a cult, like pornography, like organized crime, or any other zany societal ill you would like to compare it to.

    Provided you make it clear that this is YOUR opinion!

    It is, of course, nonsense. You should not expect anyone to say, "oh, yeah, a company that sells cosmetics is exactly like people drinking kool-aid with poison in it!" And referencing a disreputable site like Pink Truth as "confirming" this suspicion by constantly referring to the "pink kool-aid" really does more to weaken your case than anything.

    But, you are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else here is.

    My opinion is that Mary Kay is nothing like these things that you are comparing it to. In fact I have trouble believing that you truly believe these things yourself.

    I know that when I am angry or frustrated at something, I enjoy making irrational accusations at the source of my frustration.

    For instance, the guy that cuts me off on the freeway - "must have been high". I don't really believe (usually) that he literally smoked some weed before he climbed into the car... I am just making an insane statement to express how ridiculous his behavior was.

    If this is what you are doing here, you are doing a poor job at communicating the sarcasm/exaggeration. It seems as though you are trying to convince us that you actually believe that Mary Kay is on par with the aforementioned societal ills.

    As I said, you are entitled to that opinion, but it is hard to believe and I doubt that you will attract many to "hear your message" if you carry on the way you are.

    On another note, you can certainly let me know the specifics of your trip, but as you have noticed, I have not really had the time to work on this blog... it is unlikely that I will opt for a coke over composing a post if I do manage to squeeze an hour of time out of my current schedule.

  39. Well thank you!!!! Gosh, ya mean I finally got it right? ...Hold a second while I mark this date on my calendar... ;-)

    Ok then, if I’m coming in line, maybe you too could be courteous enough to at least answer a question you kind of avoided.


    If the MK MLM produced a sufficient enough number of former IBCs who’d had negative experiences with MK, could you Dave conclude the MK MLM itself might be dysfunctional?

  40. I have already answered this many, many times.

    I have already concluded that Mary Kay not only "may" be dysfunctional, but, as a matter of natural course, already "is" dysfunctional to a point.

    All companies battle some level of dysfunction. I challenge you to think of even just one company that does not have people coming away from their "experience" with said company, tainted, in some way.

    To borrow your habit of comparing unrelated things to one another, consider the phrase "going postal". Pink Truth, many of its adherents, and you have in common that you are "going postal" with the exception that, to date, (as far as I know) no actual massacres have taken place.

    Is the USPS flawed? Of course. Does it need patches, corrections, and possibly a top to bottom overhaul? No doubt. Does that justify people trying to "bring it down in a glorious plume of smoke"? Absolutely not.

    In the same way, I (and most of the readers on this blog) have never intended to promote the idea that Mary Kay is perfect. To my knowledge, I have never said anything that would even imply that I felt that way.

    What you would like for me to say is that it is flawed (or dysfunctional) beyond repair. What the "Mary Kay is god" extremists would like me to say is that Mary Kay is beyond criticism... it is inherently perfect.

    I can not imagine a situation where I will adhere to either of these points of view. Primarily because they are laughable at best and destructive at worst.

    Is there dysfunction in Mary Kay? Of course.

    Do I believe that the majority of the people "in charge" at Mary Kay are doing their best to fix it? Yes, I do.

    Do I feel that it is my job to try to bring these things to their attention? Nope.

    Do I feel it is my role to entertain your fantasies and try to placate your rantings? Nope.

    As I said, you are entitled to your extreme analogies. But I am not obligated to fuel them by trying to explain how wildly off base they are.

  41. Sometimes I think you employ nuanced diversion the way Michael Jordan use to play basketball. A pleasure to watch.

    Of course we are all dysfunctional to some extent. All businesses, all entities are dysfunctional to some limited degree. You already know that’s not what I was referring to.

    Let me try again.


    If the MK MLM produced a sufficient enough number of former IBCs who’d had negative experiences with MK, could you, Dave, conclude the MK MLM itself is dysfunctional to a point where you’d recommend to the average woman considering the opportunity she should avoid MK because it is systemically dysfunctional to a degree that her risk for a negative outcome is too high?

  42. Dave, if you think the driver is high, there are 2 things to check...

    1. going way under the speed limit, and
    2. (of course) weaving.

    People who are stoned tend to slow their cars to a crawl, have trouble judging distances, and get easily distracted. I can usually pick them out easily and distinguish them from the drunks (whose driving is more erratic and often not as slow/overly cautious as that of the stoner.)

    Why do I know this crap? Well, not all people of my acquaintance are as conscientious as I am on the road!

  43. Blessed,

    No, absolutely not. I never make a recommendation one way or another about decisions of this sort.

    I always recommend that someone find out as much as they possibly can about the risk of an endeavor as compared to their personal situation. (I.E., mother of 5 should find out as much as she can about how other mothers of 5 have made out with trying to home school as opposed to how a mother of one made out with the same endeavor)

    From there, it is THEIR personal decision to make. I, myself, have decided to not be a part of any MLM. I have tried and found that they do not fit me well. It is not a good match for me. I will tell people that without a moments hesitation. However, that is MY decision based on MY circumstances. I will not demonize something - and will in fact strongly resist anyone who does - just because it was/is not a fit for certain personalities or situations.

    Imagine if I were to tell an aspiring athlete not to attempt to become a professional athlete because of the risk of exposure to the humiliation of not making it into the extremely small minority of people that "arrive" at that goal?

    I simply do not see it as my place to do that.

    I of course always counsel good common sense... "Don't quit your day job" is always an apt piece of advice for anyone entering a field that does not have a guarantee.

    But recommend that someone pass up an opportunity because there is a risk involved? Never.


    Thanks for that clarification!!

  44. Dave,

    I believe you’ve made that as clear as you’re gonna make it. Thanks for taking the time to reply.


  45. So, Dave, do ya ever find yourself in or near the Carolinas on the east coast or are you strictly a "left sider"?


  46. "in" in fact... is that perhaps a hint at your location and the possibility of a SC/NC meet up?

  47. ? 4 blessed- if you are not comfortable answering, that is okay by me, but if you wouldn't mind sharing, what Seminar division was your wife a part of? I will not voice my opinion ahead of time because I do not want to influence any discussion on this (possible future) topic, but I have found, it seems that one division seems to have more "stuff" going on than the other four. So my curiousty is up?

    If you reply- thank you. I would not want you to share more than that to safe guard your anon. status.

  48. This comment has been removed by the author.

  49. Mkfme,

    My wife’s director was Sherril Steinman.


    A SC/NC meet up, sure. Who knows? You ever find yourself in North or South Carolina?


  50. Just my two cents, Sherrill Steinmann is one of the old school MK directors and used to own a florist business and she is from Michigan. She was always a top director and preached the ways of Mary Kay Ash. I dont know how she is now but in the day she didnt preach tons of recruiting she preached sales from what I remember I have some of her tapes from the late 80s early 90s and she was great with baskets. Unless she has changed I dont see what she teaches as being a problem.


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