I have read on some other sites (Pink Truth, Pink Lighthouse, etc.) about the interesting predicaments that people got themselves into with Mary Kay.
Most recently for instance, JTA on Pink Truth says,
"And I can’t even begin to imagine the finances. I’ve said before but it bears repeating that I have seen with my own eyes the basement full of product. Boxes and boxes. How does one continue when a person they care so much for is in this situation? If it were a one in a million case, I could have helped her and moved past it. But sadly it is rampant and I could not ignore it any longer."
An unnamed husband writes,
"My wife has been in Mary Kay for 4 years. In that time she has lost over $30K. I had to remortgage the house to keep her from going bankrupt, but still she's back at it. Her credit is going to max again in the next few months. This time I will lose the house. I have a good job, but she's losing it faster than I can make it."
And there are others that have mentioned spending even MORE than this. My question is, "Where did you get all this money in the first place?" Is your husband doing THAT well at his job that you were able to not only NOT make money, but at the same time LOSE tens of thousands of dollars?
To compound the problem, and almost in answer to my question above, many of the "exit testimonials" describe how GREAT their life is now that they can stay at home with their kids all day and "just be a mom". Look, I have no problem with that, AND if you family's finances allow you to do it, I actually recommend it. What better way to raise a child/children than to be right there with them as they grow up?
But this raises a very curious, but so far unasked question. Why did you join MK in the first place? Why did you, upon realizing how much work it was, not stop at that point? And probably the most important question, why do you feel the need (now that you are out) to turn your nose up at the ones that NEED that extra income for their family? It is a sad commentary on your compassion (or lack thereof) that you are willing and able to trump yourself as somehow "better than" just because you and your family had the ability and means to lose thousands of dollars on a venture and then, when you finally "had enough" just quit and go back to "life as usual".
And those of you that went from Mary Kay to your magical "high paying" careers, don't think you are exempt. You are telling me that you were working making 6 figures in the corporate world, you loved your great job and normal hours, but for some reason you left all that completely, jumped into Mary Kay with both feet, AND THEN discovered that Mary Kay was "not for you" or a "horrible trap designed to lure you into debt" so you went back to your lucrative position in Corporate America? I don't necessarily buy into this whole "Obama is an elitist" controversy, but I would say that your attitude definitely stinks of elitism.
Look, if you had something good going before... and you fell for the "grass is greener on the other side" sentiments that we all feel from time to time... then realized that you had it better before, that is GOOD. You learned what some of us like to call a lesson. For some of you it took you years (or decades) and for some of you it cost thousands (or tens of thousands). But why not thank God (or whatever or whomever YOU thank when things go well) that you HAVE that kind of money to "lose" on your education.
Have you ever heard of people spending massive gobs of cash on a college degree (let's say doctor or lawyer just to be super generic) only to realize that they just couldn't handle BEING a doctor or a lawyer? Does that mean that BEING a doctor or lawyer is a BAD thing? Should they start a website called "doctors suck" or "lawyers suck"? Does that mean that all doctors and lawyers are shams that are just "pretending" or "faking it until they make it"?
Listen, you had a bad experience. It probably had a little to do with the people that brought you in. It probably had a little to do with the fact that you really wanted it to be as good as they (the ones that were lying to you because they had been lied to themselves) told you it was. The thing is that most of the people on THIS site and others like it have been trying to tell you that we are truly sorry that happened to you. It is NOT how we operate, it is NOT the way Mary Kay is supposed to be done. We want the people that did this to you to "get busted" just as much as you do. But the bottom line is you are not HELPING anyone by stirring up controversy. If YOU had a bad experience, most likely you KNOW the NAME of the person or people that perpetrated the unethical behavior. REPORT THEM. Call Mary Kay. Tell THEM what happened. Use REAL peoples names, give specific examples, and then move on... "lesson learned". You do not need "PT Therapy". Be thankful that you can spend time with your kids and then SPEND TIME WITH YOUR KIDS instead of spending time telling the anonymous blogosphere how much you love that you COULD be spending time with your kids.
Oh, and since you have SO much money now, I have a great investment opportunity for you... it is a bridge in... never mind, you wouldn't be interested in my stupid bridge.
Posts
If I am not mistaken, I read one day where someone had just received their refund check, something to the tune of $17,000! WHAT!?!?!?!? That's a 90% check ladies and gentlemen. Now that might include tax, but still folks, that is ALOT of product. And remember, you are only eligible to return the amount of products purchased during the prior 12 months. SOOOOOO, this means that she ordered at least $34,000 in retail products during the 12 months prior to her quitting the biz and obviously wasn't selling at a pace to need it.
ReplyDeleteThink about it. Who does that? That is averaging over $1400 wholesale per month. I don't know where you would even put that much product. I've ordered in the ballpark of that much the past 12 months, but only have about $4800 in retail/$2400 wholesale on my shelf.
I am not trying to be unkind, but you have to wonder about someone's judgment when they do something like that. There is NEVER, and I mean NEVER a need for ANYONE in Mary Kay to have that kind of inventory sitting on their shelf. I personally might know one person who could come close to even needing half of that amount. Most in the sales force would never even need a fourth or an eighth of that amount.
Do you see how ridiculous this is?
THEN, and here is the key point, these same people want to turn around and say that now they are people of good judgment, and we should listen to them.
The times I read PT, I, for one, find it amazing that people can be so.....stupid.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry, but there is no other way I can describe it.
I don't care what someone tells you, if you are ordering that much product and not selling it - just setting it on a shelf and watching it sit there - then you have to be a special kind of stupid.
If you can be so dishonest and not know it is wrong (which is what so many claim on there), then you are a special kind of stupid.
That has NOTHING to do with MK. It is just the way they are.
Sorry. JMHO
Justify any wrong be saying, you were brainwashed and everyone does it....hmmmmm, I think I would come up with a better line before I stood in judgement.
ReplyDeleteReally, I have to laugh because how many of you have kids?? Haven't they ever asked you to do something and you said "no" and of course, they come back with, but everyone else is going, or everyone else is allowed to, etc... and of course a good parent says, well, you are my child and I am telling you no, just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it smart (or right)??
intersting concept, I am sure if someone got caught cheating on their tax return, stealing from a store, pulled over for speeding, their defense in Court would be, "it is not my fault, everyone is doing it, I am brainwashed".
Lots of people are doing drugs, killing people, blackmailing others, .. what else will they justify. We are all tempted to do things, what sets us apart is deciding to do the right thing, not the easy thing.
And, isn't pride, also a sin, so, the defense for this stupid behavior is they were ashamed to look like a failure, so they were goint to lie and cheat so that they looked successful??
MKShay, I also raised an eyebrow with the comments that it wasn't worth the money to be away from their family in the evening, they are very happy being a SAHM, while I am happy for them too, but some of us, must help our family with our income. If they were happy being a SAHM, and tried MK and felt they didn't want to be away, hey, no big deal, but you don't have to trash MK, just go back to your home. I happen to love what I do, need the money to help my husband, and love the flexibility to work around everyone's schedule.
I don't have the option to be a SAHM.
I could go on and on, but I from reading, I think many of them whining and complaining really thought they were going to get rich quick and felt that once they signed their agreements people were just going to start pounding their door down to buy $100's of MK, without them having to lift a finger, for pete's sake, you've got to do something for the money.
I don't discount that there are some individuals I do feel were wronged and I am sorry that they were treated poorly, but for the majority, when they Lord gave out brains, lots of them thought He said "trains" and they decided to take the bus!
There just in no logic in buying that much product for any reason and then to continue buying more product when you are not selling what you have. I have said it before, and I will say it again, it must be horrible to have self esteem so low that you need to spend that type of money trying to get two minutes of recognition. And once they finally realize how ridicules they have behaved, the end up on pt, blaming everyone and everything but themselves. They don't need PT, they need a good therapist. Because this type of behavior will be repeating, just in other ways. (Almost like OCD behavior) - we can even see some of it in their continued obsession with Mary Kay. Now they are not involved in Mary Kay but they are spending as much if not more time than they were in Mary Kay, bashing it and posting on a blog all day long. I bet if they had put half the effort into reading MK materials such as intouch, they would have been far better off in MK! ( and wouldn't have ended up on PT)
I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but come on, if these woman are to be trusted with the lives of their children, they should be able to be trusted with a credit card.
Let me guess, you're the people that blame the rape victim. Hey, her skirt was too short. She was out after midnight. She was drunk. She's had one night stands in the past. Yes, she was all of those things. But shouldn't the rapist be blamed even more so than the victim?
ReplyDeleteIt was my experience that directors and nationals preyed on women who wanted something more than what they had, be it money, or friendships, or recognition. They were masters at manipulation. Yes, those women made decisions that no one should be proud of. But shouldn't the people in authority be blamed as well? Is it enough to say that they were over 18 and should have known better? Do we have to call people stupid? And if they really are a special kind of stupid doesn't that make the director even more evil to take advantage of them? Obviously they cannot think for themselves. Can no one here show some compassion? Or do you want so badly to think that the consultants were stupid, no way that the wonderful company could endorse this hurtful behavior.
I am so disappointed in this site. For a while I thought the commenters were above the name calling and cattiness of PT. It seems I was wrong. There is wrong on both sides, whether or not you've personally seen it. Show some decency. And realize that you do not know all that is going on in this business.
two sides,
ReplyDeletethere are indeed two sides to every story. the one presented here (in the post and in the comments) is, as you should have realized, ONE of the sides. what we are looking for, and actively requesting, is YOUR side, YOUR perspective, YOUR point of view. I suspect that you have little to no intention of actually telling YOUR story. no, you seem like the type to wait until someone else makes a mistake and point out how it was a mistake. perhaps I am wrong? I hope so. please prove me wrong.
on to your, "Mary Kay is like rape" analogy. we are not talking about the ones that had high pressure and manipulation applied to them, the ones that were forced in with guilt and/or abuse. in fact, if you have read (as you suggest) this site for anytime, we are very charitable towards anyone that tells their story. we are talking about the ones that "turned aside" to pursue this. I wont get graphic here, but at some point when the "rape" is INITIATED by the woman, it is NOT rape. it is one thing to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, it is an entirely different thing to go out "looking to score" and then in the morning cry "rape".
that is not to say that there are not victims here. I can't emphasize that enough. as mentioned IN THIS VERY POST, we realize that there are bad elements that are using the Mary Kay name to fraudulently perpetrate their victimization of unwitting targets. this is appalling and we want it stopped as much as the next person. except that we are recommending a more proactive approach and "calling the 'other side' out" in hopes that rather than smearing ALL of the people representing Mary Kay, they will do the right thing and report the abuse they have seen.
I am sorry if you are "so disappointed in this site". I am not sure how long you have been reading, but I suggest that you take a look at the many posts in the history of this site to see that we show a considerably amount of compassion towards anyone that has had a bad experience. if you feel that this post is "indecent" (and it seems that you do) than perhaps this is not the site for you. I do try to make this site as balanced as possible and would like to believe that there is "something for everyone", but as they say, "you can't win them all". if I have lost you as a reader because of this, I will sadly have to bid you farewell, because while these comments may be a little more aggressive than "normal", they are not inappropriate or unwarranted.
it may be that I am missing your point here and if you would like to clarify, please feel free. I would hate to lose any reader on account of a misunderstanding.
thanks for taking the time to express your feelings about it.
two sides, please spare us the rape comparisons. It is an insult to women who have suffered sexual assault to even compare a bad mk experience to that of rape. Rape is a crime, plain and simple, no matter the circumstances. Getting caught up in MK with a bad director and losing money, not so much.
ReplyDeleteA whole lot more is lost in the case of sexual assualt that money cant replace. Those that have been in MK and lost money should be glad that is all they lost, in rape what you lose is irreplaceable.
In rape you dont have a choice, someone forces you into their will, in a business decision you DO have a choice. The stories I hear about on PT about women being tens of thousands of dollars in debt (one lady was $30 thousand) at some point you have to stop and realize that it was you own fault for letting it get that far.
In a case like that one is not a victim, because they allowed it to continue, its was their choice. So a victim is not being blamed in my opinion, because there is none.
A true victim should never be blamed, but those on PT arent victims, they are ladies who made bad business decisions and they need to take responsiblity for it.
So we are not blaming the victim, we are challenging them to quit trying to classify themselves as victims and take responsibility for thier own actions, and move on.
You should also realize that you dont know all of what is going on in this business, especially if you believe that everyone behaves like those described on PT. We acknowledge that good and bad exist, do you?
2 sides -
ReplyDeleteIMHO, there is a huge difference between those who were pressured/coerced/convinced to purchase a large starting inventory and those who ordered month after month after month. I feel for those who were saddled with a large inventory under false pretenses.
For those who ordered month after month after month and piled product after product on the shelves - that is not someone else's fault. For those who lie to spouses and run their business dishonestly - that is not someone else's fault.
You feel the word "stupid" is to harsh? I don't. PT seems to be teeming with unethical, dishonest former (and current) reps. People who are getting standing ovations for standing behind a screen name, extolling their vices. Some of these members are still reaping the benefits (via a commission check) from the dishonest, unethical ways they run their business.
Nothing is the consultant's fault in PT Land. Ordered thousands in inventory and had it sitting on the shelf? MK is evil. Lied to the Hubby about the aforementioned thousands of dollars in inventory? MK is evil. Lied to your team, your family members? MK is evil. Ran your Directorship with all the morals of Darth Vader? MK is evil.
2 sides, at least here both sides are presented.
As far as the rape analogy, you are so far off base I don't know where to begin.
MK4ME is right. We teach our kids to think for themselves and be responsible for their own actions.
ReplyDeletePTers have apparently forgotten that teaching, I guess.
Remember how your mom reacted to "so and so told me to do it!"
Didn't work then, did it? And it shouldn't work now. (But it does on PT.)
another comment for 2 sides -
ReplyDelete"Stupid" is not really a term I use often. However, after seeing story after story on PT and not being able to comment on the lies and deception over there, it gets to ya after a while.
2 sides:
ReplyDeleteThe rape comparison is simply not valid, basically because when someone is raped, they are saying "no". These women said "yes". More than once. "Yes" when they signed the agreement which outlines things in black and white, "yes" when they placed their orders, each and every one of them. And, they had the power to stop their business at any time, AND receive a 90% refund on the orders placed within the past 12 months. How does that possibly compare?
I am not sure why everyone "over there" is justified in getting their feelings hurt when things are alleged about them, but Mary Kay consultants and directors are not. I and many others have been victims.
We have been victims of PT's attempts to ruin my business and my livelihood.
Many of us have been victims of vicious personal attacks by PT and its readers/writers (go back and read the beginning days if you can find them)
When I am categorically considered "unethical", "evil", etc., I am being victimized.
I have victimized no one. My desire is to help other women accomplish what I have, to earn money for their families.
Here is another thought that occurred to me recently. Many of those who have left Mary Kay and now rant on and on about how terrible MK Corp. is have admitted to returning to corporate America and how much they love it.
ReplyDeleteI have some questions:
Do you really not ever feel victimized by that system?
If you do not meet the requirements of your job and lose it, will you blame the company? Your boss?
Do you not think that the higher ups make their living off of you?
Do you really have any control over your future? Over promotions?
Yes, some of you have great answers to all of those. My point is that every company, every career has its good and bad points. Nothing is perfect. What works for one does not work for another. It makes perfect sense that those who thrive in the corporate environment with set schedules and lots of control over their actions, might not fare so well in a self owned business, whether it be Mary Kay or anything else. But, Mary Kay is not the big green monster that these people purport.
If one would spend over ten thousand dollars to "make it" in Mary Kay, they probably would make foolish choices in other areas of life. Why will no one "over there" acknowledge that? What if they were running their own boutique? Or in corp. America would they just keep buying new suits to "look the part"? Doesn't this behavior say something about that individual?
Maybe Mary Kay is not a good place for those with little self control or discipline, I'll accept that. But, Mary Kay does not take away one's self control or discipline, that lies within yourself.
Also for 2 sides, only one poster (unless I miscount) called a name, so please so not lump us all in as name callers. I've asked some legitimate questions about behavior, and would love for those who've claimed these things to come over here and have a real debate about their words. I'd love the chance to ask them questions and get to the bottom of their story, not just the parts that they've chosen to tell. I promise you, there is more. Those of us who have been around a long time can read between the lines and can see when things do not add up. Let's discuss that. What do they have to hide? Let's get it all out.
ReplyDeleteThere are 2 sides to most stories, but PT doesn't tell the other side. That's my biggest gripe with them, because I consider it somewhat dishonest. Those who do not know better probably just think that there is no rebuttle to their stories since there are none posted, but that is not true. That is how I think it can be misleading, and thus dishonest.
MKShay said...
ReplyDelete"MK4ME is right. We teach our kids to think for themselves and be responsible for their own actions.
PTers have apparently forgotten that teaching, I guess.
Remember how your mom reacted to "so and so told me to do it!"
Didn't work then, did it? And it shouldn't work now. (But it does on PT.)"
This is so simple, yet so brilliant. Exactly. Just because someone told you to do it, does not mean you should do it.
Example: That "husband unawareness plan". Uh. Well. I keep it in context. It's usually said with a smirk, laugh, giggle. Perception. I take it as a joke. A silly little meaningless comment. And it's a phrase that I have never used. My choice.
It's all about choices. Free will. Personal responsibility for those choices.
And I agree that PT is misleading and therefore dishonest. And let me add manipulative. Very, extremely manipulative. She only allows for the anti-MK side of the story. She does NOT allow for the pro-MK side of the story. She does not allow the good experiences. Ever.
ReplyDeleteOne more point on this, I think alot of us may have been a little up at arms because of the bold face lie from on "honest, go-give" director that was posted on that other site.
ReplyDeleteDon't continue to tell the others that I cheat and lie, because you did.
I do agree we may sound a little harsh on this thread but if you read what we are speaking out against, the comments actually are mellow for what they could be.
And, your comment defends, the consultant at the hands of their evil director and/or national, well you just insulted about half of the posters on pt who either were the unethical directors, you speak of or better yet, ARE the ones you are speaking of.
For people that will speak so loudly against a Company that is so evil, they have no problems, accepting the "dirty" money made from it!
Interesting huh, what will they do if MK ever went out of business??
Accuse Mary Kay of taking away their ability to make money??
Interesting again, because first they are trying to shut MK down and second, according to them, no one makes money in Mary kay so how do they justify staying to "recoup" money from Mary Kay that the Company owes them if noone can make money in MK???
See our frustration, one just CAN NOT have it both ways.
And lastly, I do think you may want to post a public apology, you may have really hurt anyone that may have been the victim of rape. I am sure they would not appreciate your example. Given a choice, I am sure they would choose a chance a Mary kay career than to relive a rape.
In her post, jta says, “1. I said I was sorry about teaching them to frontload. Every Director that I know has allowed an order to be placed that was larger than the person needed and/or could afford. This placed that person in financial jeopardy”. First of all, how in the world does one STOP another person from ordering too much? From buying too much stuff on her credit card? You can’t. Secondly, HOW does she know that order put the person in “financial jeopardy”? What an ego! And it’s not her decision to make anyway.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite is her point #3. ROFLMBO. Oh my. Jta says, “3. I said I was sorry about overlooking the huge personal orders to make production. This has to be the worst for me. What type of person does not notice their friend, their sister, ordering THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of dollars of inventory every other month! What type of person does not say something, does not counsel the person? Who does this? I did! …… But worry about someone over-extending themselves, well THAT is just unacceptable!”
More ego! Since when is it anyone else’s business if a person over-extends herself? This is one of those personal responsibility things. It’s that particular person’s responsibility to make sure she doesn’t over-extend her finances.
My favorite part on #3 is this part, “What type of person does not notice their friend, their sister, ordering THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of dollars of inventory every other month!” “Thousands upon thousands of dollars….every other month”.
Really? “Thousands” is plural, meaning more than one thousand. Gotta be at least two thousand. Plural thousands upon plural thousands every other month. That has to be at least two thousand, - no that’s wrong. That would have to be more like four thousand. Every other month. Are there REALLY any directors out there who order $4,000 w/s every other month, (not justified by her own personal sales) repeatedly, just to keep her own unit? Huh? I’m not buyin’ this one. I’d buy that a director might order $2,000 w/s every other month just to keep her unit. I also don’t believe she’d be able to keep that up very long. Unless she was actually SELLING $2,000 retail a month. Then she really would need to order $2,000 w/s every two months. Sooo……
(Personally I believe that a director should be selling at least $1,200 retail every single month. If she’s not, she’s got no business being a director. JMHO.)
Jta’s use of this ridiculous hyperbole totally discredits everything she says. At least IMO.
Some of the comments:
Thinkingpinkstinks said, “I, too, have seen consultants, one in particular, who had thousands of dollars of product in a bedroom, boxes unopened,“
Okaaaaaaaaaaaay…… Uhm, she has “seen consultants” (note the plural) then says “one in particular”, with so much product, boxes unopened. Please note the “one in particular”. How in the world does this “one in particular” translate into “I, too, have seen consultants”, plural? By her own words she’s only seen one.
What said, (apparently after reading comments on PT): “I realized that there was no way I was going to continue accept what I had been fed for 21 years.” And “Until the commission dries up and I'm finally out of here, I will NOT promote anything but the legitimate sale of this product to people who want to buy it of their own free will.”
21 years?????!!!!!!!!!
Well. Obviously she is still collecting commission checks……..Is she still a director, too?
Oh, and the lovely comments bringing God into it. It’s exactly the same as they claim MK people do, abusing God and religion. They’ve just flipped it to the other side.
I take major exception to jta’s comment, “But what was and still is the most difficult part of making the decision to leave MK was disappointing and hurting my Directors.” Uhm, excuse me? Did she not confess to how she hurt her directors as their Senior Director? How does getting OUT of MK hurt “her” directors? Jta’s having been IN Mary Kay is what hurt those directors, not her getting out!
Oh but wait! She’s not out yet! She’s still IN Mary Kay, still collecting that commission check, STILL hurting and disappointing her directors!
Rebecca, you have touched on one of my pet peeves with directors leaving Mary Kay. If you are leaving, then leave, stop accepting the paychecks, be done, finished, move on. If you are not, then commit and do the job 100%.
ReplyDeleteAs a director, you have made a commitment to others, to those in your unit. When you are doing nothing and just collecting the checks until they dry up, then you are hurting those women, and for your own benefit. You are not training or supporting them, and because you are technically still their director, no one else can step in and do that either!
If, in their minds, Mary Kay was the beast that they say, how could they justify taking one cent of this dirty, dirty, money? What does that say about the author???? That she is still willing to cash those checks.
If you really want to take a stand, then resign and refuse any commissions owed to you. After all, you act like it is blood money or something. If you really believe that, then turn down the CASH!
See, these are the kinds of things that I would love to bring up if she would post over here, because no one over there will ever ask about these things. Why are they not clobbering her for remaining in the company? Because she is playing their tune, that's why, so they will go along with what they can get.
Actually, I think it was MK4Me that first mentioned that part.
ReplyDeleteSTRT, you are so right. They are "playing the tune", which is to bash MK. Anything goes as long as it is bashing MK. Principles, values, right vs wrong, has nothing to do with it.
There have been threads over on PT explaining why it is okay for those directors to keep on collecting those commission checks even though they are on their way out. They did the work, they deserve to be financially compensated, blah blah blah blah.
So the little darlings continue to "disappoint and hurt" their consultants and offspring directors on their way out, all in the name of getting some money.
Hmmm. So it's all about the money. The recognition they get on PT. The praise and sympathy they get on PT. The sense of belonging they get on PT. The sisterhood they get on PT.
Ah..
Oh, the irony.
OK, never compared IBCs to being raped. Compared them to victims because that is what alot of them are. And a lot on this site blame the victim. And if you MKers don't want to all be lumped together with the bad apples then maybe you shouldn't lump all PTers together. Some of us aren't MK haters but we also aren't MK lovers. And I, for one, never frontloaded.
ReplyDeleteI did complain to MKC and named names. Guess what? Nothing happened. My director and national are STILL frontloading. Still manipulating. Still preying on women who are looking to improve their situation.
All I am asking is for those who are doing it right to show a little tiny bit of compassion. Don't blame those who were duped. Don't call us stupid. Don't say we should have read more. Just realize that not all MKers are good people. And just because someone is part of MK does not mean they are a good person. Read and see what happened to a lot of people and figure out if it is even worth it to risk the same happening to you.
How very very interesting.
ReplyDeleteDon't lump them, don't lump the others, don't lump the pro-MKers, don't lump the anti-MKers, don't lump the PTers.
And yet Two Sides uses the word "we" in her comments. Who are the "we" that are being lumped together?
RE: complaining to the company, Two Sides said, "My director and national are STILL frontloading. Still manipulating. Still preying on women who are looking to improve their situation."
"Frontloading", "manipulating", "preying on women....", are not violations of the Agreement, nor are they illegal.
Then there is the need for proof, evidence. One person's statement may not be sufficient.
RE: Compassion. This blog REEKS of compassion for those who have had bad experiences in MK. Not just a "little tiny bit". Tons and tons of compassion. I've also seen plenty of compassion on many, if not all, of the pro-MK blogs.
When I read MK4Me's comments, I can HEAR how her heart breaks for those who've been done wrong by the bad MK people.
Myself, I am FED UP with having to repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, (yes I meant to type repeatedly repeatedly) express compassion and sympathy for the bad stuff that happens in MK.
I have read NO posts or comments on this blog that would lead me to believe that anyone believes "And just because someone is part of MK does not mean they are a good person."
In fact, that is a message that I would SCREAM to the sales force. People are people and no one is infallible. Just because a person is in MK does not mean that she can't be a con woman. Have not some of you "heard" me express that there is no perfection in the lining of the director suit? Nor in the NSD suit. Just because a person has joined MK does not mean that she suddenly has super powers, magical powers, or becomes perfect and never says or does anything wrong. !!! Sheesh.
WHY is it that anyone would even think that another person, any other person, won't do something wrong at sometime or another? I believe that IF so many of those on PT (disclaimer: I am not lumping them all together, just a lot of them based on the comments I have read on PT) had kept this in mind, then they would not have been "duped".
"Just realize that not all MKers are good people." This is a very condescending and insulting comment. - IMO.
"Read and see what happened to a lot of people and figure out if it is even worth it to risk the same happening to you." Considering that there are no perfect people anywhere,it's kinda hard to not take any risks. Which is why I feel that it is so important to remember that no one is perfect, and to use your own common sense, and scrutinize pretty much everything using your own core values, beliefs, and principles. On the other hand, this statement by Two Sides rather sounds like lumping all MK people together as all bad and being in MK at all is too much of a risk.
2 sides said:
ReplyDelete"Just realize that not all MKers are not good people."
That is also something we teach our kids. "There are good people and bad people."
And "Don't believe everything you hear."
And "If everyone else jumped off of a bridge, would you?"
2 sides, I know there are dishonest people in MK. Why? Because there are dishonest people everywhere.
But, at some point, you have to balance sympathy with personal responsibility - otherwise, no lessons are learned.
If one of my kids came to me and got into trouble because they followed the crowd or trusted someone they should not have, will I have sympathy? Sure. But I will also be honest and let them know what they did wrong so they can learn from it. (And, no, I would not use the term "stupid" with them - they are kids and my love bugs) Oh, yeah - and they would still be punished for it. LOL
If the PTers that have made such colossal mistakes only hear how they did nothing wrong and it is all MK's fault - well, then they will make the same mistakes again....and blame someone else.
two sides,
ReplyDeleteglad that you stuck around.
you said,
"...a lot on this site blame the victim. And if you MKers don't want to all be lumped together with the bad apples then maybe you shouldn't lump all PTers together..."
When you say "a lot" what do you mean? I would say that nobody on here blames the victim.
Please point out one username that has blamed a victim, and in what way they did so. After we determine what you meant by "blaming victims" we can try to ascertain whether or not "a lot" of people on this site do so.
That being said, one of the major problems with the debate of "is Mary Kay good or bad?" is that there are a lot of generalizations. It is therefore very important that when reading or writing about either side of the story, you carefully define WHO is being discussed. In the case of this post and most of the subsequent comments, we were not referring to ALL of the people on PT. We are referring to the ones that brag about how terrible they were in Mary Kay AND blame the system for their own lack of personal values AND then try to assign their own moral shortcomings to "everyone that does Mary Kay". This discussion is NOT talking about the ones that say (for instance) "I tried Mary Kay and didn't like it." OR "My best friends sister told me God would like me better if I bought $5,000 of inventory".
It is very easy though (as generalizations fly) for it to begin to sound as though "everyone on PT blames everyone in MK" and this is a problem that we all need to keep in mind.
Thank you for pointing it out. It is something that we all need to be constantly mindful of. (re-read some of your comments even to see how easily your intentions were misread - I am sure that you never intended for anyone to think that you were actually comparing IBC's to rape victims, but that is what we all thought)
I hope that you read a little bit of the stories and conversations that have taken place on this site and see that we do hold a great deal of compassion for the ones that have been hurt.
Good comment, MKShay.
ReplyDeleteWe are taught those things as children. We in turn teach them to our children. But? What? We forget to apply them in our lives as adults? That's something I would indeed label stupid.
TY, Rebecca -
ReplyDeleteI read the comments and posts on PT and simply shake my head.
I don't accept those kinds of excuses from my 14, 12, 10 or 3 year olds - yet these excuses are offered and accepted all the time on PT.
*shakes head*
2 sides,
ReplyDeleteI do have compassion for anyone who is mistreated or lied to, whether in Mary Kay or elsewhere.
My compassion has led me to try and help those who have crossed my path by showing them the proper way to conduct a Mary Kay business, and I have a fantastic example to share.
I have a lady who has become a dear friend to me. When I met her, she was a Mary Kay sales director in a completely different National Area and Seminar than myself. We worked together as directors and I soon realized that she was in trouble, big time. She had been duped, mistreated, and not taught properly. That had led her to some very poor decisions regarding her business, including stock piling of inventory. Over time, it became apparent that her unit was not strong enough to maintain itself, and she resigned. Her director was one of those who constantly pressured for production, didn't teach you to sell anything, bugged you to death, etc. My friend absolutely grieved stepping down from directorship, she loved it, but knew that her unit had been built very weakly, and that she needed to step back.
After months or working through her feelings, she is sticking with Mary Kay. However, she has decided to sit it out for 12 months in order to get out of this other director's unit. She simply could not get past the things that this woman does, and chose to give up her team members rather than to stay in that unit. I encouraged her to stay there and keep her team, as it does not matter if that director gets a commission on her, I would still treat her as mine, but she could not do it.
I have traded with her and helped her to wean down her inventory, and have adopted her into my own unit a long time ago. Yes, it help me too, because she had so much product, I had access to practically anything on the planet, but she regularly thanks me for my help.
I have also worked with her as a consultant and taught her to really sell this product and to build a strong personal business and to teach her consultants to do the same. To throw out those corny scripts and get real with people, have fun, and build relationships.
The point. She does not blame Mary Kay for her director. She has been lucky enough to be around many directors in my National Area and has seen the real Mary Kay.
Over the years, I've adopted consultants whose directors were riding out the commission checks, those whose directors were not holding meetings, and mentored those without strong uplines to help them. I've also mentored sister directors who were weak or stuggling. I've done all of this when there was no financial benefit to me at all. THAT IS THE MARY KAY WAY. THAT IS GO-GIVE. That is compassion.
2 sides, I guess I just have some trouble with the term victim, because I am not sure that it is totally accurate. Sure, there are some cases where it is, but for most of those who I now who have left Mary Kay, that is not the case. Honestly, most of them didn't do the work. They really didn't. Some just wouldn't, some couldn't, some didn't want to. Either way, they are not victims.
Your assertion that I am risking being hurt or having some negative thing happen puzzles me, it reveals your belief that Mary Kay Corp. and the MK opportunity are bad. I'm telling you that if I walked away today, I would be way on the positive as far as what I have gotten out of my Mary Kay business, financially, personally, spiritually, in every way. Is it a risk to pursue something as big as NSD? Sure, not everyone can get there, just like everyone will not be the CEO or company president, but my nature is to go for the big win, so I'm going for it. If I do not make it, I'm still making money, setting my own schedule, having fun, making friends, and learning a lot.
2 sides -
ReplyDeleteI, too, amd glad you have stayed. Hopefully you will continue to do so. :o)
I have quite a bit of sympathy for someone who is a victim. The term "victim" implies that there is no fault involved.
I truly don't feel that the term applies to the VAST majority of people on PT.
STRT, that is an awesome story. Thank you for sharing it. :o)
ReplyDeletestrt, here we go again, I became friends with a director who moved into my area. (I have more time with the Company and she has only been a director a couple of years). We decided it would be fun to do a few meetings together. Well, did we both get an eye opener. My unit booked appointments and sold product, I didn't worry about how big an order was for a new consultant because as long as they were working, they were ordering and we were making production with no sweat.
ReplyDeleteMy buddy on the other hand was taught, bring them in big, and pretty much say next, well as long as you could get one big order a month you were making production, when you added your order in. So there was months she would be sweating that "big" order or was just missing the month and would make the next month.
We sat for hours and she listened to my reasoning. She saw the benefits of doing this business the right way, that director started booking and selling and starting working with her unit members to get them booking and selling. She really had to train everyone as if they were a brand new consultant. I will admit she had a few tough months as she worked to turn her unit around but she was committed to turning it around and she did.
I was so proud of her and worked with her hand in hand thru the conversion. So for those that say it can't be done, I have seen it done but it takes personal commitment to turn it around because once you've done it one way for so long, it takes time to reverse it.
And, she is not an offspring or even in the same Seminar Division, she was just a person that I happened to like and had a desire to help.
One reason I tend to post on these blogs is because I feel I can help others. I hope I help anyway.
Questions for the Directors here regarding the comments on PT by those who claim to still be MK directors:
ReplyDeleteDo Directors need to maintain "active" status in order to stay Directors? To receive unit commission checks? ($200 w/s order every 3 months.)
Or does a director lose her director status when she goes 3 months w/o a w/s order?
Consultants don't receive commission checks if they are inactive. (3 months w/o an order.)
At 6 months inactive, consultants lose their personal recruits.
When a director stops working (as those on PT claim), how long, approximately, would it take before the unit disintegrated? Years? Months? Weeks? I realize this depends on how strong the unit is. I don't think a unit could be very strong if the director is posting on PT.
I can't imagine the unit lasting very long. And I gotta wonder just how much unnecessary Section 1those on PT who claim to be directors are ordering to keep that unit going for just a few more commission checks.
Posted by Rebecca:
ReplyDeleteWhen I read MK4Me's comments, I can HEAR how her heart breaks for those who've been done wrong by the bad MK people.
Rebecca, thank you very much for hearing my heart. It is so hard to express feelings in writing, to see that you could feel the emotion in my writing, makes me feel very happy I took the time to write it. (and I thank you for letting me)
I do wish I could undo the wrong that some have experienced at the hand of less than wonderful people, I have worked with individual posters that I have met thru blogland. I love being able to make a difference in the lives of people, and I will continue to "speak" out, because I don't like the "bad apples" giving the rest of us a bad name.
Together we can make a difference, I also feel that the one 's complaining the loudest are in a position to make a difference if they would put pen to paper and document the wrongs with proof and send it to Mary Kay. (Things like the credit card fraud, the activating a consultant without her really planning on rejoining, or signing up a cat or dog) - hard to do without a social security number.
What everyone needs to remember, Mary Kay can address the illegal issues if they have proof, they can't address with more than a lecture, unethical behavior.
Unethical is not Illegal.
And often when they do correct a director or a consultant for unethical behavior, they don't go back to the complainer to say, hey, we slapped her hand and we are now publically going to tar and feather her. It is done quietly, but it is done. So, just because someone thinks the Company never corrects anyone, well they would be wrong.
I HATE more than all of the posters on PT put together, the intentional poor behavior of directors that hurt consultants all so that they can get more production. And I still don't understand alot of it, because sooner or later, it is going to come back and bite the unethical one in the *ss. So why do it in the first place?
Rebecca, just saw your post, just before mine, I will answer tomorrow, wasn't ignoring you, we must have been posting at the same time! :)
ReplyDeleteAdding to Rebecca's questions:
ReplyDeleteAt what point does MKC step in? I knew two directors personally who were asked to step down. It was within the first 18 months of their directorship. Both stepped down without hesitation. One left MK and decided it wasn't her thing. The other is now a consultant and plans to try again.
Is it possible to miss production for years?
Speculation tells me that in order to maintain production, directors could potentially place the max allowable order themselves. Can the director's max wholesale order make production if the unit isn't working?
Rebecca,
ReplyDeleteDirector's must remain active to receive commissions, but you would not lose your unit if you were inactive. Just like a consultant, you must put in your own personal $600 wholesale for the 13% personal recruit commission. The company gives more weight to our personal activity and rewards us for that.
According to the director's agreement, we are to make production every month. The company typically will grant exceptions if one does not miss more than one month in a row. If a director does miss two months in a row, the company will use grant an exception, and along some type of warning that they must not miss two months in a row from that point on. Also, the company usually works with directors who are in their first 12 months or who have some type of crisis, illness, etc.
Yes, a director theoretically could order the entire amount, but when granting exceptions the company will look at your activity, meaning new unit members, personal ordering, etc. Also, there are some things put in place on the path to directorship to prevent one from buying the position, such as requiring 30 active unit members, only allowing consultants to contribute a certain dollar amount towards car qualification, etc. Of course, one can skirt the rules if they try hard enough, but the rules are there for a reason.
BTW, I am a huge proponent of earning the car first and I hear that the company is returning to that program.
Hope that answers your questions. I'm sure mk4me might can add some other details...
Thanks, STRT. I thought that would be the way it is. I wanted to get this info out here so all can see FACTS. And use them in deciding what to believe about those on PT who claim to still be directors and are staying directors to collect those commission checks.
ReplyDeleteThese "directors" must be ordering at least once every three months to receive a commission check. I thought so. $200 w/s minimum. $600 w/s to receive that 13%.
What happens when a director does not order in 6 months?
I will be THRILLED for the company to return to the previous way of consultants earning the car before they can do DIQ!
So, the company looks at a director/unit who is making the minimum production every other month. They see how much is from the Director and how much from the unit, and how much from new recruits.
I really and truly wonder how often the company allows a director to do this for FOUR years! (The game thread on whether or not rica82 is fake or real.)
Thanks for that information! I, too, would have no problem at all with MKC making car qualification mandatory before entering DIQ. Personally, I prefer to earn car first regardless. I want a strong unit. Love the advice I see here from directors.
ReplyDeleteI just re-read that "husband"'s comment from the main post:
ReplyDelete"My wife has been in Mary Kay for 4years. In that time she has lost over $30K. I had to remortgage the house to keep her from going bankrupt, but still she's back at it. Her credit is going to max again in the next few months. This time I will lose the house. I have a good job, but she's losing it faster than I can make it."
"This time I will lose the house." Why? How does one lose the house over maxed out credit cards?
This doesn't make any sense to me. None at all. She "lost" over $30,000 in 4 years. In this MK business? That would be an average of $625 a month. Is she not selling a single dollar of product? At all? Ever?
He had to remortgage the house to keep her from going bankrupt. I ask Why? Why not just let her go bankrupt? I'm trying to figure out exactly how one does go bankrupt in this MK business.
"Her credit is going to max again in the next few months." Okay. In the next few months. It's not maxed out now. Take the credit cards away from her. Cancel them. Talk to her. DO something. Uh, I mean something other than post on PT about it.
"I have a good job, but she's losing it faster than I can make it." Why is she taking household money for her MK business? How is she "losing" the money faster than he can make it in his good job? Is she gambling or is she running a MK business?
Remember, I averaged that $30,000 debt to $625 a month. Yes, $625 is a lot of money in one month. But he has a good job. So is his wife spending (losing) $625 a month really that big of a crisis?
A. He should never have allowed her to take household money for her MK business in the first place, let alone on a continual basis.
B. He needs to have a serious financial discussion with her.
C. He needs to take over the household finances totally and completly if she can't be trusted with them.
D. If she wants spending money, then she's got to make it for herself with her MK business. And he needs to NOT give her any money from the household finances.
This guy's comment just irks me no end. It sounds like he just sat there for 4 years and did nothing. And he's still doing nothing. This is truly a fixable situation yet he does nothing.
Is he for real? Or is he a PT "fake"?
I'm going to comment on STRT's first comment on this thread. I know it's way back up there but....
ReplyDeleteI agree. It's crazy. Then people such as Two Sides get ticked at us for lacking compassion because these poor people were duped, were "victims".
How in the world does a person get "duped" into ordering too much product when she just keeps stacking it up in the spare bedroom, the basement, where ever, perhaps not even opening the boxes? She's duped? She's a victim? She's being manipulated? She's being coerced?
I don't think so.
How many boxes will she stack up one on top of another before it becomes clear to her that she has too much product? (I am using "she" in a generic, general sense.) At what point will she smack herself upside the head and say NO MORE. STOP. Then set about the business of selling the product she does have.
Yes, STRT, it is ridiculous. It is poor judgment.
As MKShay said, "But, at some point, you have to balance sympathy with personal responsibility - otherwise, no lessons are learned."
Hey all, when you become a director we sign our contract that says we are committed to doing monthly production (minimum $4000) from the unit.
ReplyDeleteWe agree to it. Just as if you earn the car, you know you need certain production to maintain the car. That is what the qualification period sets you up to do, a certain level of activity.
I am with the others that would not mind seeing the Company have consultants earn the car first or do it together, (an old program where you could do both at the same time).
If a director starts missing production, the Company will work with them but there comes a point, it is kinder to put someone in their misery out of their pain. Let them step down and rebuild. This isn't cruel, this is protecting them from themselves. The problem enters when someone wants it so bad they start "cheating" to make it look like they are making production or buying it. This does noone any good. From observing, it seems the more someone is struggling the harder things become.
But, if the Company does ask a director to step down, "the Company is a big bad meany"?? (According to the other site) This makes no sense, they are in fact saying, this isn't how it is suppose to work, let's get you back on track. The Company doesn't like directors stepping down, it isn't that great for the attitude of the unit plus others see this and think oh, if she couldn't do it, I will never be able to do it. They don't make the decision lightly. It is made in the best intersts of all.
I can tell you if I am looking for an adoptee director for my unit members and I see one that is a car driver and one that is not, I don't need to tell you which one I will contact first. If one is a director but hasn't earned her car, it tells me she is working the bare minimums.
As far as our production, all directors that have posted here will tell you, as a director, especially if you have a unit of 100 or less, you still better be a doggone good consultant. If a director is selling $2,000 - $3,000 a month, her personal order to the Company (working with the 60/40) split will be between $1200 to $1800 a month. If you have a unit of 30 that means the remaining 29 people only need to produce $2200 - $3000. Shouldn't be too hard, if you have "real" consultants, even if they are only parttimers. That averages only about $100 per consultant on the high end!
The numbers work, the numbers are there for a reason. It is when one tries to bypass the system that the trouble starts.
I am sure all of us at one time might have gone out on a limb and done a little more than we should to finish a goal. The key is you better start the next month working extra hard before you do anything else. (basically if you borrow from the future month) you pay it back before you order any more. **This is just an example**
I order $1000 wholesale every month, I am only $400 from finishing star emerald level. So I decide to go ahead and place the order to finish that month. That means the next month, my order isn't going to be $1000 unless I sell way more than normal. It would only be $600.
This won't get one in trouble because over the two month span I would have ordered $2000 but instead of doing $1000 one month and $1000 the next month, I just did $1400 one month and $600 the next month, it still is the same $2000. (*** of course this is based on the assumption I am selling the product**)
The System works if it is not manipulated. That is why their are certain requirements.
Not to play the devil's advocate, but it is possible to go bankrupt in this business.
ReplyDeleteI do know someone personally who filed bankruptcy early in her MK career. She's been a consultant now for over 10 years. Recently, she had said she was sitting in Seminar Arena no matter what so she was using money from her husband to order $600 and get her Star for the quarter so she would secure her arena seat.
Now, I did pipe up and say, don't do that! But she had a lot of conviction she wanted arena seating.
The bottom line and my point is we can't tell people what to do with their money. They will do with it what they want. Is this woman a victim? I don't think so. She likes MK for the comeraderie. She is still in MK and not much seems to have changed with her ordering habits except that maybe she doesn't charge as much as she used to. I don't know. I don't talk to people about their money. I make suggestions as I see fit, but that doesn't mean they'll listen.
As far as bankruptcy goes. Isn't that determined by debt to income ratio? If someone is working full time, but has a lot of monthly expenses and then gets MK into the mix and in attempting to keep active and be a star to get the leads generated by the website and such, she may max out ever card she has. Eventually, if the income coming in (both from MK and whatever other job(s) she might have) isn't enough to pay all the bills, bankruptcy might be the only option.
I know people who have maxed out their cards to keep up in MK. I don't know if it's worth it or not. Some have achieved Red Jackets and in some cases directorship. I don't know if that makes their businesses stronger or weaker. I know that for ME, myself, I would never max my card on inventory. I have a limit as far as how much I might charge and make it a goal to not charge anymore until I have sold to pay off that amount. Since I have a pretty steady customer base, I rarely have to charge anything. When/if I do charge, it's not more than $200. And I don't charge again until that $200 is paid off with MK money.
What works for me, might not be what others want. What others want to do is their business and might not be for me.
Oh, I will add that these people train with the same directors I do and hear the SAME MONEY MANAGEMENT training I do. If they aren't following it, who's fault is that? I also know that these directors I work with don't encourage anyone to order products they aren't selling. The focus is always on sales. MK4ME's style is very much like my director's and her senior's.
As for this husband, it could be true. Who knows what their other monthly bills are. Some of the numbers in there could be embellished, but the overall scenario is not an impossible one. Also, his wife may or may not have been encouraged to operate this way. She could have misinterpretted what was told to her, been told these things, or simply said, "I'll do it my way or the highway."
Personally, when someone tells me they are interested in MK, I do try and gage what their financial situation is. In most cases, I have not asked anyone to join. People come to me and say they are thinking about trying MK. If someone comes to me and says, "I want to join MK so these bill collectors will stop calling me," well, that kind of sets off red flags. If she can afford the Starter Kit, that is fine. Once she does that, and we talk about inventory, I advise this person to get orders. I have her my Look Books and Beauty Books and I give her some of my sales slips to use. This way, if things don't take off, she's only lost her investment in the Starter Kit--and that is stuff she can keep.
OK. I have to go eat lunch now. I'm kind of rambling. I just wanted it to be known that bankruptcy can and does happen in this business, but it does't have to. It tends to depend upon the individual. And if someone is in this pattern, don't think you or any director can tell them not to do it. They'll do what they want to do.
I'm not sure about the guy who claims he keeps bailing his wife out. My question would be "if you bailed her out, how does she still have open credit available to her?" Also, why not make it a stipulation of bailing her out that you take all of her credit cards? As usual, with these really out there stories, something doesn't add up.
ReplyDeleteThink about it. Does a rational person, in a good marriage, make these kinds of choices? Does she not respect her husband and their financial stability? I've never heard it taught in Mary Kay that we should put our families in financial jeopardy to succeed in Mary Kay. This type of behavior goes far beyond being a Mary Kay problem or being Mary Kay's fault.
The company actually has some guidelines and rules in place, but if someone wants to go around the system, they will, whether it be in Mary Kay or anywhere else.
The company will terminate you for forging agreements and ordering in someone else's name. What more does one want?
The company limits the amount of retail credit for orders in a given month that count for the Court of Sales in order to keep someone from just buying it or just ordering it to move up in the Top consultant listing.
The company can ask a consultant to return a company car if her team falls below a certain number of consultants, no matter what her production. Again, to keep her from just paying for it.
If you really study the Advance brochure and really know the business, you will understand how things really work.
Many posters on the other site are very hypocritical in their views, as they contradict their own complaints:
They say that the company doesn't do anything to rogue consultants, yet they complain when they do, and support those who have been ousted.
They complain that the company allows women to order at their own discretion, yet they complain about what the company doesn't allow.
They complain about large inventory orders, but also complain about chargebacks! WHAT??? Chargebacks help to keep directors from loading consultants up with too much inventory, why wouldn't they be for those? Let me guess, some of them do not want to pay back the money maybe???
The scream for rules and enforcement, but break them all the time and encourage others to do so.
They claim no one makes any money in Mary Kay, only to say that they are staying in because they are making a little selling product, or they are still collecting commissions?!?!?!?!?
This "husband" didn't say he remortgaged the house to keep "us" from going bankrupt. He said he did it to keep "her" from going bankrupt. He didn't say "we" remortgaged, he said "I" remorgaged.
ReplyDeleteHe said "her" credit was about to max again, not "our" credit.
He said "I" will lose the house, not "we" will lose the house.
So. This guy claims to make good money at his job. He blames his wife's MK spending for this critical financial situation. If I chose to believe this story is true, then I also suspect both this man and his wife have a whole lot of bad spending habits, not just "her" losing money faster than he can make it.
Just stuff that causes me to be suspicious of the authenticity of this story.
Good points. :)
ReplyDelete