Monday, November 19, 2007

Pink Truth "Research" (2 of 2)

Some things you simply can't make up.

This is so rich that it is going to have to be a Two (2) part series:

Part 2 (of 2) Part 1 is here

Apparently Tracy 'was reading' a comment on 'another site'.

She doesn't mention which site this is on, so I can't provide that to you, but you can read her post here.

For those of you that refuse to visit her site (and I certainly don't blame you!), here are her thoughts about that comment that she found:

"I was reading on another site a comment by a writer who said that anyone who was told Mary Kay is easy (and believed it) is stupid. She said something to the effect of, "If I was your recruiter I would have told you it's hard work, and so would almost any other Mary Kay recruiter. I'm sorry you got one of the few bad ones."

I almost fell out of my chair laughing. We all know that 99% of Mary Kay recruiters brag on how easy it is to sell the product.

So just for kicks, I wondered how many web pages I could find that referred to Mary Kay as a product that sells itself. Here is but ONE search that I did.... "mary kay" "sells itself". Other variations on the wording would produce many more pages.

Crazy how many pages say it's easy to sell, eh? And a good thing Pink Truth comes up first for the search !"

I am not making that up. I am not sure how long it will be up, so be sure to check it out with your own eyes while you still can. Click Here

I really believe that as soon as she thinks about what she posted here, she will at the very least change it a little. But here goes anyway...

Again, this is part two of a two part series! Part 1 is here

Ok, so the product either sells itself or it doesn’t, right. Read the first post of this mini-series to wrap your brain around the reality of that statement and the expectations that you should place on it.

Let’s examine the “proof” provided that demonstrates that most recruiters say, “The product sells itself”. Deceptive or not, meant literally or not, Tracy demonstrates how many websites claim that Mary Kay sells itself by linking to a google search for the terms “mary kay” and “sells itself”.

Just for kicks!

Ok, just for kicks, let’s put just a little bit of effort into this and see what the Top Ten results point to! Shall we?

First, we have her site, Pink Truth. Which she points out. “And a good thing Pink Truth comes up first for the search !”

Tracy. Are you saying that your website claims that Mary Kay sells itself? How is this evidence to support your point? Do you not realize what you just said? Think about it. Go ahead, take your time. Let it sink in. Still nothing? Let me explain again.

You said, “We all know that 99% of Mary Kay recruiters brag on how easy it is to sell the product”

Then you said, “Let me prove it to you”.

Then you said, “Here is a list of sites that say, ‘Mary Kay is easy to sell’.”

YOUR site was at the top of the list.

Then you said, “And a good thing Pink Truth comes up first for the search !”

You actually:

  1. Listed your site as one of the “bad guys”
  2. Pointed that fact out.

I think I am beginning to understand why you took the phrase “sells itself” literally.

Ok, if anyone still doesn’t get it, go ahead and leave a comment and I will try to slow it down a little more for you.

Let’s move on.

Here is the list of sites that Tracy claims are claiming that Mary Kay “sells itself”

  1. Since the time of her post, Pink Truth has actually been trumped by, “iVillage Garden Web”. I have never heard of them and I will give Tracy credit that when she posted this article, PT was number 1 for these search terms. Anyway, iVillage Garden Web claims to be “The Internet’s Garden and Home Community”.
    1. “sells itself” appears in a discussion (pros and cons) of whether or not “pink overalls” should allow an acquaintance to demonstrate the Mary Kay product on her. She apparently has never tried it and does not want to if there is not at least a decent chance of her liking the product.
    2. The phrase is used by someone who says, “I feel Mary Kay sells itself, the product is good and is a pleasure to use.”
    3. Not exactly a recruiter telling a potential recruit that her product is going to sell itself.
    4. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  2. Pink Truth is now number Two for these search terms.
    1. The article cited is “I hand you the keys to the Mary Kay castle” which is allegedly a directors instructions to a new consultant/recruiter. It does in fact say that the product sells itself and instructs the interviewer to say that it does. But, as I said before, except in a very literal translation, it does.
    2. Tracy is calling her site evidence that there are a lot of sites that claim Mary Kay sells itself. Her site does not. But it is listed as one that does?
    3. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  3. Yahoo answers. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen on the internet to date. Someone asks a question. ANYONE can answer. Anyone can vote on any answer (thumbs up or thumbs down). After a period of time the answer with the most thumbs up wins. It doesn’t matter if it is right, wrong or utterly ridiculous, Yahoo declares that answer as the correct answer.
    1. In this case, the question was, “Which will I make more money selling? Avon or Mary Kay?”
    2. The “Best Answer” was, “MARY KAY offers things you can' get at your average discount store is what AVON stuff is.”
    3. I don’t think anything I could say could more vividly express my disgust at this form of ‘discovering’ answers. I quoted both of those directly from the internet. Almost all answers are that outrageous.
    4. The “answer” that scored the ‘sells itself phrase’ for Tracy’s research was a third party ‘spammer’ promoting their candle selling business. Just in time for the holidays! Check out their opportunity here!
    5. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  4. The Dollar Stretcher. A consumer guide of sorts that helps you make your dollars go a little further.
    1. The page in question is about selling Mary Kay. Some pro, some anti.
    2. The quote comes from an ex-MKer who has discovered a “new company that is not so new”. She says, “Since this company (not Mary Kay) has stores in the malls, there is already familiarity and the product sells itself. I would definitely not recommend Mary Kay.”
    3. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  5. An article on Common Boundaries website. This is the FIRST site where someone selling the product claims that it “sells itself”. Still not a recruiting ploy though, sorry. Still not really even a sales tactic.
    1. “So what is Lee's best selling product? "Definitely Satin Hands," he says. "Even my dad uses it. It sells itself."”
    2. Sorry for all the quotes!
    3. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  6. Someone’s blog –
    1. Asked whether MK was good or not, a list of Pro’s, Con’s, and I dunno’s followed.
    2. One anti-MK’er said, “I was naive and fell for the “It sells itself” line that the recruiters give you.” And, “But my MK experience has taught me that nothing “sells itself””.
    3. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  7. Pink Truth again. (you can click on that link... it is safe... it won't add to her stats!)
    1. Ironically, the home page bringing up the words “sells itself” over and over again in recent comments and in the title/content of the post in question. (I am sure this was not there when she was creating the post but it is there now and currently is adding to her “volume of evidence”)
    2. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  8. Ebay entry. Milotrigger’s blog. Re: Mary Kay Cosmetics.
    1. Milotrigger suggests listing unsold MK items on ebay
    2. One of the comments ends with, “Let's face it; we all got into the business because of the promise of fast cash, the pink cadillac and prizes and someone spoke the words "Oh the product sells itself". But we must be real and realistic. The product does not sell itself”
    3. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  9. Product Review. Mary Kay Cosmetics.
    1. Neutral review, author prefers Avon.
    2. “The one good thing about being an Avon Sales Representative, is that I am part of a good cause and second, I do not have to sell Avon because Avon sells itself.”
    3. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  10. Personal Experience with Mary Kay.
    1. This person had a bad experience with Mary Kay.
    2. Someone told her the product would sell itself
    3. NOT a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself.
  11. Why I am a Mary Kay Consultant. Since number 7 was technically not there when Tracy was writing this, I will add an eleventh entry. And a good thing for her. For the first time, we see what could be construed as “sells itself” being used as a “pitch” to recruit someone.
    1. “What "sold" me on Mary Kay was that I never have to compete with anyone but myself. The product sells itself; my job is simply to get it out there, to be honest and truthful about the product, and because of Mary Kay's policy of "try before you buy" I will never feel like I "hustled" anybody to give me a few extra bucks or to help me gain a few points.”
    2. Finally, a website claiming that Mary Kay sells itself. And again, allow me to point out that SHE still takes responsibility for showing it to people!

So, with the exception of number 7 which I will omit, the top ten results showed only ONE (1) result that “backed up” Tracy’s point that there are “many web pages… that referred to Mary Kay as a product that sells itself.” For those of you that don’t like math, close your eyes. This is a ratio of 1:10. The result page said there were 1,960 results. Now I don’t plan on going through all of those sites, and I don’t expect her to either. But let’s just say that fully 10% of those results are genuine “Mary Kay sells itself” websites. 196 people saying that Mary Kay sells itself are hardly 99%!!!! Let’s go a step further. Let’s call it 200, and assume that several other searches and further combing of the internet produces 5x that number. 1,000 people claiming that Mary Kay sells itself are still nowhere near 99%.

It is this kind of “research” that made me start this site. The fact that at the time of me writing this there are seven (7) comments affirming this post as credible research tells me that some people still regard Pink Truth as offering the truth. This is the sorriest excuse for research I have seen since I used a baseball card to research a “famous African-American” for a Social Studies project in 6th grade. No wait. This is worse. This truly baffles the mind. I am in awe of how ridiculous this is.

“Crazy how many pages say it's easy to sell, eh? And a good thing Pink Truth comes up first for the search!”

Stop. Read that again! 1 in 10 is a lot? Pink Truth is one of them? I can’t stop looking. I keep reading it over and over expecting it to change. Thinking I may wake up! Count the days friends (and foes). How long until this post comes down? Or will it be edited? Please tell me that at some point she will realize how insane it is!?

Did you even look at those pages? Did you read what you wrote before you hit "publish"? Are you secretly making fun of your readers by insulting THEIR intelligence? I just don't understand.

Ok, moving on.

I think that 100% of Mary Kay reps should proudly say that their product sells itself. Not taken out of context, this statement is true. It is true of any product that you can allow people to “try”. They get to see first hand whether or not they like it. It is not a guarantee that they will, but it takes the sales pressure off the salesperson and puts it on the product. You just have to find people that are willing to try it. This CAN be quite tricky. It is like this new gum I have discovered. 5. That is what it is called. 5. You may have heard of it, I don’t know. I tried it because I am a sucker for packaging and theirs is really great. I really like it. I have had some people try it and they liked it. Some people tried it and didn’t like it. Some people refused to try it. I am not a sales person for them, and I will not get any money if you or anyone else tries it. But by getting people to try it, I have proved that their product, “sells itself”.

Now, if someone took the “sells itself” phrase to mean that literally they were going to have to stave off the hordes of women fighting each other to get to this amazing product that sells itself, and they communicated it to you like that, I will say again, “I am sorry you were lied to”. But, now I am going to ask you to be honest. Did you really think that all you had to do was buy the product and people would come to you? That is not a rhetorical question or a sarcastic one. I genuinely don’t believe that anyone seriously signs up to sell something that they think will magically sell itself. It would not take more than a fleeting thought to realize that if there was no human quotient involved you would not have been approached in the first place. So please, help me understand. What did you really think that phrase meant when you first signed up and what was so different when you got in that made you feel lied to?



  1. You're on quite a rampage this moring! :) I, too, think Tracy got carried away with this one. I was told that MK sold itself. I do not believe that it does. I was told that it was EASY to get people to try it. It's not. Enough about that.

    I think the reason PT was happy about being the first site on the Google page was so that if someone were googling that phrase they could go to her site first and be informed about how this product DOES NOT sell itself.

    Since I am a SAHM and have some time on my hands I looked at those other sites. Not many were loud and proud MKers. Most people have had a bad experience with this company. Most people quit it. And the reason most people hate it after being in it is because they were lead to believe something that was completely different from the experience. That is my biggest problem with this company. The fake it til you make it mentality is there with all the higher ups. They would never tell you how hard it is until after you have ordered a large inventory and run thru all your family and friends and now have to start cold with people you don't know and who have no interest in doing you a favor. I never understood that part. My director was always telling me to tell friends and family to do me a favor and let me facial them. Of course to get them to buy from me. She also did not agree with me giving my mother a discount. But why on earth would so many people want to do me a favor and spend money on somthing that they do not want. To help me out. My director was always telling us to help the unit out and order consistantly to keep our numbers up. I didn't understand how that helped the unit. Her, maybe. But not the unit. I was raised to believe that you always help people in need in whatever way you can. But to simply throw money at them, that's not helping. Especially since this women was certainly not teaching us how to sell all the stuff she wanted us to buy. Because it sells itself!

    I think I am riled up enough this morning. I really like your site, David. It's nice to vent and not have someone feed the anger like on PT. That doesn't help anyone. But here I can say my piece, you refute it with your wife's experience and off we go. Keep it up!

  2. I was told Mary Kay sells itself, however, I was also told I have to find the people who want the product. My director always says we don't get rich off friends and family, but in starting a new endeavor, it helps to start with people we know. Personally, I am much more successful selling to new people who did not know me prior to my becoming a MK Consultant.
    I offered discounts to my family (my director gives her family a discount). My family won't let me discount it for them. Can you believe that? I want to give them a deal, but they refuse it. So, I give holiday and birthday discounts.
    So, Mary Kay "sells itself." I was also told that Honda Accord "sells itself." If products really were that easy to sell, then there would be no competition. It would be too easy. Nothing worth pursuing ever comes easy; however, one must also know when enough is enough. :)

    1. I agree with shadesofpink, when i joined i was told that the effort i put into it was what i would get out of it.
      I was also told i didn't have to buy a lot of inventory, and that friends and family are the easiest possible customers to start with because it's good practice to find out what possible questions others may have about certain products which encouraged me to do more product studying(surprisingly my family doesn't let me give them discount either). I just bought enough product to sample out as testers.
      The number 1 reason I joined was because I loved how the product made me look and feel. I figured, someone had to let me try the product before i fell for it, the least i could do was let someone else try it, love it, and buy it.
      I have 2 team members and another signing up next month. 1 of them signed up just to get the consultant discount for her personal products and save herself some money and I encourage that... why not?! She was buying from me at retail prices as gifts and presents as well as personal use; why not save money and get the same products.

  3. I took the phrase that "Mary Kay sells itself" to mean that I won't have to apply a lot of sales pressure to get folks to buy it. I still feel that way. I have never had to "trick" or "convince" someone to buy something from me. I do what I was trained by my director to do which is show the product. If someone wants to buy it.. then great, if they dont then.. so what, because I know someone else will come along that will try it and they will buy it. If I dont make any money, its because I did not SHOW the product or show it enough, plain and simple.

    Poeple are not going to buy something everytime you show the product to them. But they wont refuse you each and everytime either. This is why Pink Truth is so misleading because the owner of the blog wants folks to believe that noone anywhere is buying Mary kay and that you will never sell it and surely not for full price. I feel that when you actually sell something to someone, you are talking them into something (selling an idea, or convincing someone to buy something on the word of advertisment alone) But MaryKay IMO is not like that. Its almost like the people you see in the local grocery or food wholesale stores that stand in the isles cooking meals. They give "samples" to those passing by so that customers can try it. Some people buy the food product based on the taste sample, some just walk around trying to get full and some arent insterested at all. But for those that do buy based on the taste sample, its safe to say that the food sold itself. They may not have bought it otherwise or they may have already been in the market for a similar product, but its safe to say that it was the fact that they tried the sample that prompted the sale. All the employee had to do was tell them the price and "ask" for the sale and then point in the direction of the product and then it goes from there.

    I approach my business the same way. All I have to do is find or create an opportunity to show the product. Somebody is going to want it and eventually buy it. To me its that simple.

    I think that where many of us part ways is in the definition of "selling itself" and the concept of the business being "easy". When our experience does not line up with what are definitions of these two concepts are, then we feel that we werent told everything or lied to or misled.

    For instance I too was told that Mary Kay was "easy" as well as easy to learn to do. I believed it because I was comparing it to what I already did for a living. When I signed my agreement I was working in a correctional facility providing mental health treatment for inmates. Enough said right? I felt that if I could talk to drug dealers, hookers and murderers on a daily basis, then teaching a skin care class would be a cake walk. And it has proven to be easy to me, because I compare it to "my idea" of what truely stressful hard work is. The concept of the product selling itself is true in my experience because I am not put off by the idea of doing what I can to put myself in front of people so I can show them the products, thus giving them the chance to try it and then buy it.. or not.

    It truely depends on what each person thinks "easy" or "selling itself" means. I believe it is easy because the actual task of giving a facial or skin care class, requires no college degree, it requires no life or death decisions and basically you can have fun when you do it.

    Also people get the idea of "easy" and "time consuming" mixed up and they use them as if they mean the same thing. For instance, the task of picking up the phone and dialing customers is "easy" in and of itself, (who doesnt know how to use the phone?) but it can be time consuming. So naturally when people find out how much time it requires to keep this business up on a consistant basis, they often say they were lied to when they were led to believe that the business is easy. Because it is "time consuming" that translates into "being hard" for a lot of people. Saying this business is easy is not a lie, but just subject to each persons believe of what easy is. Then it becomes a lie or the truth depending on your definition of easy.

    Also in reading Judi's comments, it seems that she talks a lot about the time consuming factor of this business and how her director misled her on many levels. Her director misled her about how much time she would have to put in and so forth. She says this is why she has problems with "company". But its obvious that her "director" is the one who misled her not the "company". It bothers me when people get upset with the parent company of MaryKay because of the individual actions of their directors. Individual actions on the part of a director are not always endorsed or supported by Mary kay corporate, especially unethical actions. Stop saying "the company did.." when in reality it was your director that did it and misled you. Everyones director does not mislead them about the potential that this business holds. Mine sure hasn't misled me.

    I was told that I had to work just as if I was starting any other kind of business. Yes there are some differences, but the sweat equity in many cases is the same. I think I came away with a healthy understanding of how this business holds a balance of being easy work, but time comsuming at the same time. I expect this business to be time comsuming, so I was not put off by that part of it. I was prepared for that.
    I sill say that compared to any other business, MK is the easiest to get into and run. All self employment or home business situations will require a large time committment or short term sacrafice for the betterment of your business. MK is no different.

  4. sorry,.. in my last post I meant to say that people get the idea of "hard" and "time consuming" mixed up and they use them as if they mean the same thing.

  5. My rebuttle to the "it's not the company, it's the director" is that the company should know what these directors are telling their downlines. And I think they do know and just don't care. It wasn't just my director, misleading me. It was a bunch of them and the national. I think MKC should be a little more involved. All the info I got from my dirctor was indorsed by the company, so I took it as coming from the company.

    I take full responsiblity for my actions. I spent way to much money in this business. I do not blame anyone. When my director and others showed me their love checks, they did not tell me that the amount did not include expenses, charge backs, etc. It looked like a real check. There was nothing telling me that the amount was not take home. That is misleading. And every director does it or MKC would not send those mock checks out. The only reason to do that is to mislead someone. So not only is it more time consuming than they lead you to believe, they don't make near the amount of money that they want you to think they do. And I asked the questions. I asked more than one director, more than 2, more than 10. I went to career conference and met a bunch and questioned them to death about their experiences. They were working the "Fake it til you make it" stance something fierce!

    I just want people who are thinking about starting in this business to get some REAL answers. Make the recruit show the Schedule C. If she is bragging about how much she makes in order to get you to sign up, make her prove it. With her tax records. My director showed me that check and since it looked like a real check I thought that was her income. I just want people to be aware. Talk to people who are doing it and talk to people was quit doing it. Don't rely on MKC to give you all the answers. But don't rely on PT, either. That's what's nice about this site. It shows all sides.

  6. I don't understand what you mean by "mock check." The checks are real. They can be deposited and you get real money in return. Like any business person, the consultant or director receiving the check has to take into consideration that it has not been taxed and not spend the entire check. They have to plan their finances and budget their funds. Also, if the director or consultant is selling the product, the check is not the only source of income she is receiving. Whenever I hear directors talk about their highest check to date, they always add, "that's not including sales." I knew when my director showed me her highest check that it was not taxed. She didn't have to tell me that. Personally, I haven't had a huge "love check" yet so my sales are always higher than my checks from the company.

    1. I've also seen my national's highest check, I also heard her say "this is my highest check" meaning that not all checks were the same amount. I also heard them say it's not including their product sales. My director also told me this is "my business". As any business, mine has operational expenses, inventory, ...etc.
      One tip I want to share is read everything, study, educate yourself, the answers are out there, you just have to put in the "work". You do get what your willing to put into it.

  7. Judi,
    explain the part about being shown a fake check. This is news to me

  8. It was a copy of a check. It had a stub and everything. That it was not the amount that was deposited in her bank account from MKC. It was her commissions, but it did not show the chargebacks that happened that month. But it looked like a real check. Not knowing any better, I took it as a real check. And not know how much expense is involved, I had no idea that the amount of that check was no where near the amount of her actual income. It's been 3 years since I saw it and I didn't stare at it. She said look at my love check and showed me and a skin care class, while she was recruiting. She called it a check and it looked like a check. It's actually a copy from MKC. You dont' deposit it. They direct deposit. But the point was, it was not accurate.

  9. I just experienced a perfect example of MK selling itself. I laid out some samples of the new fragrance out on the break room table at my job a few days ago. Just a few minutes ago a coworker came into my office and placed an order for the Bella fragrance.

    I admit that this is an extreme example but it is a true one. But actually, I will take that statement back, it is not extreme, because it does happen often. But just for the record, I certainly dont depend on those types of sales to sustain my business. I run my business mostly off of facials and referrals and reorders. So the concept of MK selling itself is not completely false. It wont always sell with minimal effort like what I just experienced, but the point is that I took advantage of an opportunity ( something as simple as placing a sample in the breakroom) to get the product into someones hands and I sold something. I wasnt standing in the breakroom begging folks to give me an order. Some folks appreciate it when you just let them sample things, then leave them alone to make their decision.

    Of course you have to check to make sure you can do this at your job. Everyone's kid sells something here (girl scouts, fundraisers etc..) so seeing a brochure in the breakroom is no biggie where I work. But it just goes to show you, you never know where a sale may come from, just get the sample in someones hand or on their face.

    I believe that people like our products and that they will pay for them. I am selling that perfume for full price, I expect her to give me full price for it and that is what I told her it would cost. She did not protest. Sometimes how we feel about our products makes a difference in how others feel about them as well.

    Judi I have never heard of what you are saying. But I will be sure to ask my director about it. Its interesting to say the least. I have always known, however that expenses are a big part of running any business, so of course expenses will come out of whatever money MK sends a director. But like anonymous says, the money from individual sales is not included in the check, so what someone makes a month could actually be more, not less, than what we actually see.

  10. Judi, let me ask you, have you ever received a check from MKC? You can opt for direct deposit and they will send a pay stub like any other job, but it won't show taxes or expenses because we are Independent Contractors. Independent Contractors have to accommodate for their expenses and taxes on their own. It's part of the territory. If she showed you a copy of a pay stub, that doesn't mean that no money deposited into her account. I don't doubt your director experienced the chargeback, but whatever amount was on the copy would be the amount that was originally deposited unless she created a forgery and changed the amount on the copy to make it more impressive.
    I have received small love checks as I've never been more than a senior consultant. I don't get the checks regularly, so I don't have the direct deposit option. I did, however, make a copy of my first check and I have shown that to people. I assure you, real money deposited into my bank account and I didn't have to pay taxes on it because you have to earn a certain amount before it's taxable--and trust me, my checks were too small.
    When it comes to the commission checks, money management is the key. Independent Contractors are never taxed and have to keep this in mind when managing their money.

  11. I wrote the "anonymous" post up there. I forgot to ID myself. Sorry everyone. :o

  12. I realize that this is a business and there are business expenses. It was the fact that she did not say anything about those. Nor did she say anything about the car payment being taken out or chargebacks. It's the omissions that bother me. Especially since I questioned her so much. She deliveberately decieved me. She and other directors. It was not a one person thing. It happened on more than one occation with more than one director. This is just my experience. I realize that other's have had a positive experience. I just have not.

  13. Judi what it sounds like you are saying is that you were showed a check stub, but that it was not representative of what was actually deposited. Is that correct? If that is the case then what you saw could not have been a check stub or even a copy of one. A check stub (by law I suppose)has to reflect what was actually deposited. If a check stub reflects a different amount than what was deposited, than once again..I look toward your director as having done something unethical in order to recruit. Unless of course it really wasnt a check stub at all. Maybe it was some other kind of monetary record.
    I find it hard to believe that with all the finacial records and regulations that mk corporate has to keep and abide by that they would purposfully send out check stubs that dont match the actual amount deposited, or that they would send out fake checks to fool people. You say "every director does it or MKC would not send those mock checks out. The only reason to do that is to mislead someone." That sounds so farfetched and hard to believe. My first thought is that you misunderstood what you were looking at.

    I have direct deposit at my job. I get a copy of the check in the mail (it is not a real check but it is reflective of what my job deposited into my account for me.)
    True check stubs have to match what was sent to the bank.
    So are you saying you feel lied to because it was a copy and not a real check (in which case all check stubs are copies, there is nothing sinister about that) or are you saying that you have reason to believe that the amount that went into her account is not the same as the amount on the so called stub?

    But my question is how did you find out that what was on the "check stub" was different than what was actually being deposited? It sounds like, from what i can gather with the info you gave, that maybe what you were looking at was not a check stub, especially if you KNOW that that was not the amount deposited. If your director told you it was, when it wasnt, then once again I can only say that you were one of the unfortunate ones to fall under poor management.

  14. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  15. Oops, forgot to add the following disclaimer to my previous note. Sorry!

    Please know the above presentation is the product of anecdotal, rather than empirical, observations.

  16. As said with direct deposit we get a copy of what our check would have looked like. Our expenses and taxes are not deducted from the amount because we are independent contractors.

    I do not make a coop payment on my car so that would not change the figures but what would is my $500 a month cash comp payment is NOT included in my document. So actually, my income is higher than what those sheets show.

    As for chargebacks not all directors get them and even if you do it isn't every month. In 12 years as a director, I have only had two. The first one was for around $100 and the second one was around $500. This just proves my point if you don't frontload a consultant and get her started and help her build her inventory as she builds her customer base she will be able to manage her inventory and if she does decide MK isn't for her the product she does have is what her clients use.
    I have never been able to understand why anyone would want to get tons of inventory for a new consultant if you can have a working, consistantly ordering consultant as oppossed to a great big order and then nothing for months and months.

    Then as far as the expenses, the profit I make from the sale of my products more than covers my expenses. So in reality, if I showed you my check and said this is what I make, I would not be misleading you. If anything, I would be understating what I make, not overselling.

    And one final thought. I have heard and must agree with the statement, "Mary Kay is Simple to do, not easy" Simple is if you do what you are suppose to do: Book, sell, book, recruit and learn how to do this well, it is simple, it is learned and repetitive. It isn't EASY, easy would imply that it takes no effort and that isn't true. Just my two cents here.

  17. Wow, I am glad to see this conversation developing without me.

    Judi, shadesofpink, foreverpink, and MK4ME, thank you for trying to clear up a potentially confusing situation.

    Judi, correct me if I am wrong, but you are alleging that the amount of money that a director shows on her check stub may or may not be the actual amount of money that she is receiving. If that is correct, good. If you are taking it a step further, and saying that IS what they are doing (which it really sounded like you were), please be careful. I think that you are a little confused about how the process works and as such, are saying things that are not really as true as I suspect you think they are.

    Here is how I understand it. You get a commission check based on the overall sales of your unit. One of the reasons that front-loading new consultants is not a viable business plan and you hear about it blowing up in peoples faces (usually on Pink Truth… hmm) is the charge back thing that you are talking about. If your unit had a huge month, say $40K wholesale, and you as director were taking a 13% commission, you would get a check for $5,200. This is a VERY simple explanation and does not include bonuses, etc. If the way that you obtained that $40K wholesale unit production was by tricking people into ordering product they did not need, most likely (at some point) they are going to return it. When they do, that $5k the company already paid you has to go back to them. I do not know how that chargeback is processed, but hopefully someone will explain it here. If not, I will look into the details myself. However, that is not as important as the overarching point here that if you operate your business the way PT says that all (or most) directors do, you will not last. If your director was one of these, I guarantee you she will not last much longer. I am sorry that you were a victim, and I hope that you can take consolation in the fact that the ones that try to manipulate loopholes like this don’t really last long, and chances are there are a lot less of them than you might think.

    The other issue of expenses has been covered here, but I would like to add just a little point. My wife’s director operates her business so that only her sales of product cover the cost of her business. In other words, like my wife, if she has not made enough money from product sales to buy a certain inventory level, or certain prizes she wants to use as awards for her unit, she doesn’t buy it. Her expenses are fully covered by the sales side of her business. And yes, 22 years in MK, getting ready for NIQ, and she STILL holds facials, classes, parties, etc. of her own. So, for her, that number on her check IS the number she gets. She does not have to subtract expenses. ALL of that money goes directly into her personal finances. It is exactly like her paycheck. She has showed us some of her big ones. She has showed us some of her small ones. She is pretty upfront about how much she makes. She does still have to withhold taxes like all of us. But I don’t think that is your primary complaint here. I don’t know how your director chooses to operate her business, but I do know that if done correctly, that amount can be fully yours.

    So, unless I completely misunderstood you, I hope that between the other comments above and my thoughts here, you understand, these are not ‘fake checks’ or ‘mock checks’. They are commission checks. It should come from unit production. It is my understanding that there are rules in place to prevent the director from carrying the majority of the weight of that production. In other words, you have to create a team. You can’t “go it alone”. That check will be yours free and clear as long as you earn it honestly.

    I will address the issue of “they are all in on it” in a separate comment to keep things as easy to understand as possible.

    Again, thanks to all of you for joining in on the discussion. I hope that everyone benefited at least a little from this!?

  18. Ok Blessed,

    I am sorry it has come to this. I have deleted your comment in this thread. There was not much there that I felt was redeeming enough to allow the almost bizarre accusations you laid out.

    Here is my paraphrase. If you would like to reformat and re-post your comment, I will always reconsider.

    First you tried to explain what Judi was talking about by referring to the rampant deception in Mary Kay. Please keep in mind that this is not Pink Truth, and you have not established anything on this site that proves the deceptive nature you are alleging here.

    Second, you expressed that you feel Mary Kay Corporate is aware of the devious nature of their deceptive sales force and chooses not to do anything because they can simply distance themselves from it saying “we have not control over what they do”

    Third, you imply that women cannot find enough information on to make an informed decision.

    Then you go way off and compare Mary Kay to lurking crocodiles. I FEEL the same way about Pink Truth. However, I will not paint a picture like that of Pink Truth without revealing, with painstaking detail, WHY I feel that way.

    You talk about the rampant deception, the plausible deniability of MKC, the lack of real information provided and yet you are showing us nothing. Not ONE example of what someone said to you that was deceptive. Not one example of the way information was withheld from you. Judi has said, “my director said, ‘this’ and I later found out ‘that’”. You have given us nothing but vague references to “all of them”. Seems pretty cynical to me. I imagine that it is hard to move from one site to another. Who has said what and all that. But keep in mind that I am belligerently requiring that if you say something like “this is a classic example of…” you back it up with at least one real live example of that happening. If you are going to claim that it is a rampant problem, you have to establish that.

    Sorry to have to remove your comment, but I feel that I gave you ample warning about this sort of thing and I will not tolerate it here.

    Again, you are more than welcome to adjust it and post again. Also, since the comment in question was up for the majority of the day, if anyone disagrees with my assessment, please let me know.

  19. Judi, and Blessed,

    I would like to address the issue of MKC and Nationals and High Level directors being “in on it”.

    You have both established that you feel the ‘fat cats’ at the top are fully aware of the deceptive practices of members of the sales force.

    While I will be addressing this issue (hopefully soon), I will respectfully ask both of you to either ‘put up’ or ‘shut up’. If you have evidence that points to this massive level of corporate conspiracy, please feel free to post it here. Otherwise, DO NOT state your opinions as facts.

    Judi, I greatly appreciate your candor and honesty on this site. However, the following quotes from your earlier comments fall into this category.

    “It wasn't just my director, misleading me. It was a bunch of them and the national. I think MKC should be a little more involved. All the info I got from my dirctor was indorsed by the company, so I took it as coming from the company.”

    “…And every director does it or MKC would not send those mock checks out. The only reason to do that is to mislead someone. So not only is it more time consuming than they lead you to believe, they don't make near the amount of money that they want you to think they do. And I asked the questions. I asked more than one director, more than 2, more than 10. I went to career conference and met a bunch and questioned them to death about their experiences. They were working the "Fake it til you make it" stance something fierce!”

    I hope you can see how these statements you made sound like they are facts. If they are, and you have something that backs them up, I would love to see it. If I do not see it though, I will have to delete any comments containing opinions stated as facts.

    I appreciate both of you participating here, and I always look forward to hearing your points of view. However, until something is established, it can not be discussed as thought it has been.

    Thank you in advance for your understanding. Stay tuned for my thoughts on the big conspiracy!

  20. I do not feel it is a conspiracy, David. I think it is something that got way out of control and is impossible to put a stop to right away. Just like it is very hard for me to hear people rave about all the wonderful things about MCK, I think it is hard for you guys to hear the negative since you have never experienced it.

    I am not sure how I could prove to you what I saw with that check - it was not a stub, but a photocopy of a check. I can't rightly enter her house and steal it.

    I was under the impression that you were looking for positive and negative experiences that IBCs have had. These are the experiences I have had.

  21. I’m sorry to hear my note crossed your line. Have a great Thanksgiving.


  22. Judi
    some of the things that you said led me to believe that you were looking at a "direct deposit" check stub. It sounded like you believed that what was on the copy of said direct deposit check stub was not the amount that was really sent to the bank. But a direct deposit check stub ALWAYS reflects what was deposited. It goes staight to the bank for the amount shown.

    But now I see (I think) that you were trying to say that you were looking at a financial document that showed a commision amount or something like that, but it may not have beem ( I think) a direct deposit stub. So are you saying that her actual direct deposit check was for another amount? Is that where the discrepancy is? And how do you know what was actually deposited into her bank?
    Just trying to get an understanding. I am not saying that you did not see some kind of financial document, I am just trying to get an idea of what it really was, because that will clear up a lot of this for many of us.

    And also as far as expenses. I guess I just dont see how come this makes some people upset. Expenses are a necessary evil to run any business. Why is this a cause for concern? When you say that you werent told about certain expenses you felt that you had been decieved. Well, there are some expenses that dont apply to those on the beauty consultant level, or even on the team leader level. When entering DIQ and moving up, then those expenses become relevant and in most cases that is when you will learn about them. It doesnt mean that this was a stategically deceptive tactic, or that these things were purposefully withheld from you.

    Noone can know every single detail about a business when they first start. There is so much to Mary Kay as far as business expenses that I have never had to deal with because I have never made it past Team Leader, but you have to expect that when you move up any career path your responsibiites will become greater. And just like any business you have to float your business on what you make. At some point you business must sustain itself.

    As with any career or endeavor there are parts about it that we wont know exist until we really get involved in it. Its not deceptive in my opinion, but a learning process.

    Suppose you see a child who wants to become a doctor when they grow up. They keep their grades up, get into the best schools and eventually make it to med school and on to a residency. As they get further along in their journey they find out about how much it takes to run a clinic, how much it takes to keep up their medical license, not to mention the loans they have to pay off and even about the dreaded malpractice insurance. I am sure that one of the motivating factors of wanting to become a doctor is all the money that we believe they make. But upon finding out these things, would it make any sense for that same kid,who wanted to be a doctor, to turn around and say he or she was decieved because no one revealed those things in the beginning. What good would it have done to go into all of that when a high school kid talks about becoming a doctor? Does all the expenses mean that he should not be encouraged to follow the dream of being one?

    I am well aware of how being a doctor is not the same as being a beauty consultant. I am mostly talking about going for something (business, goal, promotion) and finding out that it entails more that you previously knew about it. I just dont believe that this is immoral, deceptive or illegal. Its the way things are.

    Some say that directors do not tell them about certain expenses. Well just because you were not told, does not mean that they were not going to be told when the time came for it. Maybe we do not need to know about certain expenses at certain times because we are still learning everything else amd trying to get started. You cant eat the whole pie at one time.

    Now if you are being told that there are NO expenses at all, then that would be deceptive.


For Further Reading...

This Week On Pink Truth - Click Here
Pros and Cons of Mary Kay - Read or Contribute or Both!
First Post - Why I Started This Blog
The Article I Wrote For (here) (there)
If this is your first visit please leave a comment here. I would love to hear from you!
If you want to email me:
But you are probably better emailing mk4me: