Saturday, November 17, 2007

A note from "Blessed"

Recently I posted a response to a story that made 'front page' over at Pink Truth.

You can read that post here.

Since then, the original author and I have begun a conversation of sorts in the comments section. Click the link above and scroll down to the comments if you would like to see our conversation in context.

Because his most recent comment was rather lengthy and my response even lengthier, I thought it may be beneficial to some if I posted them both here on the main page. This is his original comment. To read my response to this comment, click here.


No sarcasm intended. I’m not sure, though, what you meant in your last note by “ However, it is outrageous that you would apply that experience to someone at a gas station with a Mary Kay window sticker.” If your interpretation was that I was projecting onto every woman associated with MK sticker the preconception that they had suffered from the experience to the same degree, you’re right. That would be rather presumptuous. That was not the message I intended to convey.

I do though, very much, believe every woman participating in the “opportunity” is exposing themselves to a very real vulnerability. There is a significant level of vulnerability, particularly when the extent of participation in the “opportunity” reaches a point where the IBC’s director (or “higher up”) occupies a position of trust. I don’t, mind you, believe this vulnerability is at the same level as that associated with most any other sundry independent business undertaking. The MK MLM offers a far greater risk due to it’s deceptive, predatory recruiting and front-loading tactics. My concerns about the “opportunity” have nothing to do with the quality of the products. My repudiation stems from personal knowledge of the MK MLM tactics.

Do I believe participation in MK exposes all participant’s to an often unanticipated, too often unrecognized, level of risk?


Do I believe women and their families should take pause before swallowing the polished pitches and exposing themselves (their time, dollars and trust) to the MK “opportunity”?

Most definitely.

Nice comments re “Your money.” On target. If I were to warn you that while in a particular neighborhood, you should always travel in groups, avoid unlit areas, and keep moving at all times, the mere fact I offered such a warning would indeed tell you something about the neighborhood, wouldn’t it? Consider the message you send (however unintentional) when you are inclined to warn those interested in the “opportunity” they should avoid the things you mentioned in this article (“Your Money”). Revealing.

I applaud your blog as an additional outlet for information re the “opportunity,” regardless of the stance you take. Ironically, your offering yet another conduit for retort to the many testimonials from those who’ve suffered at the hands of the “opportunity” validates the growing body of information/warnings that the “opportunity” should be avoided, that potential MK targets should be weary. MK Corporate refuses to even publically acknowledge this growing body of “Mary Kay Cosmetics clarity.” I welcome such acknowledgment from sites such as yours. I look forward to reading more.

Take care.



Again, this was a comment left on a previous post. If you want to read my response to this comment, click here.

Thanks for stopping by.


  1. ME:

    Wow, “immense vocabulary”? “Persona”?

    Honey, come quick! Did you know I’ve got both an “immense vocabulary” AND a “Persona”? Yea! It’s true! No kidding. Look here, he’s talking about me! Quick, call the kids up here to see this. Get my mother on the phone. Sweetheart, you were in Mary Kay once, is this something that’ll get me an award at seminar?


    No dear. Sorry. The most this will get you is arena seating. You might have had a chance at a walk across the stage if only you knew how to spell and didn’t use run-on sentences. Sorry dear.

    * * * * *

    Oh well, such is life.

    Bottom line: Mary Kay Cosmetics IS a bad neighborhood. My proof is my experience, and that of so many others.

    Thanks again for your willingness to be an outlet for information that could, hopefully, prompt a bit of doubt among those who might otherwise be more easily sucked into the “opportunity.”

    Have a great weekend.


  2. Blessed,

    I have more bad news for you. This will not get you arena seating either.

    You see, the awards are based on sales success.


    Listen carefully because this is the last time that I will allow you to do this.

    You can not post opinions as facts on this website.

    You are more than welcome to talk about your experience with Mary Kay.

    However, your experience does not constitute proof that all of Mary Kay is bad.

    If you leave another comment stating opinion as fact, I will be forced to delete it.

  3. I certainly recognize it is solely your prerogative to determine what remains posted here and who posts. Thanks again for allowing me to share my thoughts on your blog.

    In your previous note you mentioned “sales success.” What is sales success? When the company describes their product as the “best selling brand,” what do they mean by “best selling”? Are they (and you) referring to MK sales to IBCs or sales to actual retail customers?

    When a company says they’re the best “selling” brand, I believe (my opinion here) they intend to be construed as referring to retail sales, not sales to their distributers. I’d assume most potential customers hearing such a claim also believe the company is describing retail sales. Does Mary Kay Corporate even track actual sales of products to retail customers (as opposed to tracking only IBC wholesale purchases)? Is it possible a significant portion of the products purported to be the “best selling brand” are sitting in the closets and basements of current and former IBCs across the country who fell prey to the polished MK MLM tactics?

    And if Mary Kay Corporate doesn’t track actual retail sales, isn’t the claim of “best selling brand” a bit, oh I don’t know, deceptive? This is an interesting question even before you try to consider all the stuff that gets returned to the company by those emerging from the fog. There is certainly a large volume of anecdotal evidence available suggesting such deceptiveness is common in the Mary Kay community.

    Let me say here I believe there is most definitely some good in Mary Kay. I never meant to portray myself as believing all associated with May Kay Corporation is bad. If you look hard enough you’ll find some good in most anything. Even cocaine has some positive, however limited, medicinal uses; I still warn people to stay away from it though. Could it be the people complaining about the deceptiveness of the “opportunity” are wrong? What’s their motivation?

    What do you think?

    Please know the above presentation is the product of anecdotal, rather than empirical, observations.

    Thanks again for allowing my posts.


  4. Blessed,

    Yes, I said sales success. And I stand by that. Mary Kay sells to consultants. The consultants should sell to customers. I cannot understand why people would continue buying product if they have not sold the inventory they currently have.

    Are you saying that a consultant who tries to buy their way to prizes, awards and accolades should have the right to complain about the company they tried to cheat? I am sure that Mary Kay does not care what you do with the product once you buy it from them. If I became a Dr. Pepper distributor, and stock piled all that carbonated goodness in 50 gallon drums in my basement just so that I could increase my chances of winning super bowl tickets (or whatever the running prize is) I don't think DP would care. And they would still count my purchase towards their sales totals. Even if I never sold it to any actual consumers.

    One of the things that really bothers me about your logic here is that you (or at least the people for whom you are arguing) created the problem by buying inventory and not selling it and now are trying to blame the company for your own indiscretion. Shy of MKC making all consultants employees and forcing them to submit sales sheets (like a manager at McDonalds) how do you propose they track their consultants sales? And why should they?

    It seems that you are suggesting that MKC is culpable here because they have somehow tricked you into buying something you have no intention of selling. This is where I am asking what evidence exactly you are referring to. There is certainly nothing coming from Mary Kay Corporate that encourages anyone to fill their basement with product they can't sell. Anything coming from an independent consultant (beginner to NSD) is prone to the weaknesses in integrity and values that I have mentioned. Mary Kay does have measures in place to prevent deception from being utilized but they can't catch them all.

    I see nothing deceptive about publishing wholesale numbers. I am sorry, but that seems like the most accurate method of disclosing the distribution of your product. There would be some serious problems with trying to track retail sales.

    First, you have a good deal of personal use consultants. They never sell to a retail consumer. Would those count as sales? Would this just be written off as a loss?

    Second, you are dealing with consultants that are allowed to run their business in whatever way they seem is right. Judi who has commented here a handful of times points out that she does not feel right charging her friends and family full price but rather sells it to them at her discount. How would you suggest MKC track these sales? Are they a loss?

    I think that your comparison of Mary Kay to cocaine is interesting. I personally think that Mary Kay is primarily good and you have to “look hard” to find the bad. I realize this is where we differ in opinion. You asked about the motivation of people complaining about the company. You are suggesting that because they don’t stand to profit from their statements they must be true. Human nature betrays this assumption though. Exaggeration and fibbing are the fodder that sites like Pink Truth thrive on. Take the topic we are discussing.

    The Truth: Mary Kay measures their sales by the wholesale purchases made by consultants.

    Pink Truth’s position: Mary Kay manipulates consultants into filling their basements and closets with products that they can’t sell and then deceptively uses these numbers to claim best selling status.

    How can you say that this embellishment of the truth is not wrong? The problem is that the truth is not very exciting. You would not have a controversial site over there if you simply presented the truth.

    I have already stated that I think the primary motivation of most of the people generating half-truths on that site is bitterness. As they get themselves riled up, the exaggerations grow. The fact that no one is allowed to disagree with anything posted on that site removes any possibility of credibility.

  5. Sometimes the best retort in a debate is to simply shut up and allow the other side to continue speaking. It’s with this in mind that I encourage anyone reading this post to go back and simply read David’s last note.

    This is wonderful stuff! I don’t know that I could possibly illuminate my ideas about MK’s deceptive “best selling brand” pitch more then you do in your last note. I truly appreciate you’re willingness to present the positions you have, especially that last one. Sometimes things otherwise missed become much more apparent when a bit of contrast is added.

    It seems obvious to me you possess a very commendable attribute. You appear to most certainly be your wife’s advocate. I feel regret you endorse the “opportunity” to the depth you obviously do but I’m also happy you and your wife have not (I assume) suffered the ill effects so common to the “opportunity,” at least not yet.

    Can you tell me more about your situation? How long have you and your wife been associated with the “opportunity”? Does she have other IBCs working under her? Is she a director? Do you objectively track the “opportunity” expenses (all), income, etc.? Can you tell me (objectively) about the success you and your wife have experienced with the “opportunity”? Where does your fervor come from? Mine comes from a sincere hope others are warned, like I wish we’d been warned a decade ago.

    Please know the above presentation is the product of anecdotal, rather than empirical, observations.


  6. So, by your lack of retort, and endorsement of my last comment we can all assume that you DO take full responsibility for intentionally buying cosmetics that you did not intend to (re)sell? And further that you actually acknowledge that you have the audacity to blame Mary Kay for your indiscretion?

    I am sure that the regret you feel about my endorsement of Mary Kay is similar in scope to the regret I feel when I hear negative stories about Mary Kay. My purpose for creating this site is to help diminish the amount of people that make mistakes getting started. I believe that the vast majority of people involved in Mary Kay are enjoying their experience fully. Not manipulating people. Not being manipulated. Just distributing a quality product to quality clients on all levels.

    Pink Truths claim that they are offering the truth on their site has motivated me to offer a site that actually has the truth. Good, bad or ugly, here you will find what experiences people have had with Mary Kay.

    Already I have had people on this site declaring their bad experiences. I have had declarations of good experiences. The more information we get from all possible angles, the more accurate a picture we can draw.

    There will be ample time for me to explain how my wife's endeavor is progressing.

  7. I took a moment to look at your other blogs. Your writing about your faith is beautiful. Scary. Scary because I find myself agreeing with you so completely regarding the few of your pieces I’ve read so far. Some of your thoughts about what God would think, about arrogance, were seemingly pulled from my head.

    Tell me you’re into photography! That would truly be irony. I enjoyed your pictures of the day.

    I’d really like to hear about, if your so inclined, the current status and history of you and your wife’s association with the “opportunity.” Can you share this with me?

    Please know the above presentation is the product of anecdotal, rather than empirical, observations.


  8. Blessed,

    I am glad that you got a chance to look at my other blogs. It sounds like you and I are not so different. It is fascinating to me how two peoples experiences of a thing can vary so radically.

    I am into photography. I assume that you mean to say you are as well? I am glad that you enjoyed the photo site. I just posted new ones today (marbles). Not sure if you visited before or after.

    As I said before, the status and history of my wife’s association with Mary Kay will be forthcoming. Most likely it will be revealed over time as it is relevant. But to give you a small glimpse:

    She is currently a team leader and drawing close to qualification for her car and entering DIQ. We both feel very strongly about the importance of her maintaining her ethics and values throughout this experience. She has made the decision to never pressure people to do anything that they have not fully considered and in most cases prayed about. (I say most cases because she is obviously not going to make an atheist pray about their decision!) Her commitment to this approach (which is fully supported by her director) will probably mean that it takes her longer to achieve certain levels. In fact, she was in DIQ earlier this year and after about two months, realized that her team was not ready. We talked about it, prayed about it and decided that it would be best for her to regroup, build her team some more and re-enter qualification later. There was no shame, her director didn’t drop her, and every one in her unit still holds her in high regard. She and I have both decided that she is not in a race to get to any particular level. The building process takes time.

    She runs her business in such a way that all of her expenses are covered by the money that she makes in Mary Kay. This took some time (a couple of months as I recall) but it was definitely a goal from the beginning. When we started, we invested some of our personal money into the business. Buying the starter kit and some of her first orders came directly from our personal finances. All of the money that she made went into buying inventory. We both felt that it would be valuable for her to have inventory on hand. We live in Southern California and people here don’t like waiting for something that they have paid for. We also saw value in things like a website, business cards and several other things that ‘every business needs’.

    After a season of this investing, we agreed that it was time for her business to stand on its own legs. I told her that she could do whatever she wanted for her business. Training materials, trips, client lunches, inventory… anything you want to do, it is your prerogative. But it has to come from the money that you make in Mary Kay. From that day, she has not used one penny of our money for her business. There have been times that she borrowed from our account if she was waiting for some checks from clients, but always paid it back within days.

    Shortly after that, we decided that her business should cover some other expenses as well. We decided that her business was heavily reliant on our Cable Internet and Cell Phone plans, those would be appropriate bills for her MK earnings to cover. She has been using her MK money to pay those completely for at least 6 months.

    Recently we have discussed some other goals that we need to see the business start meeting if we are going to consider it a valuable part of her life. One of the key things in life (I have found) is to never become so attached to something that you are unwilling to walk away from it. If the goals that we set are not achieved, if we find ourselves putting more effort into this (or anything) than it is worth, we need to be willing to walk away.

    I know that is just a scratching of the surface and I promise that as this blog develops, you will see and hear more from me about the strategies that we have employed to make this a successful endeavor. At the risk of reopening a can of worms, I truly believe that there are many women operating their MK business in much the same way. If there truly are 700,000 women in MK (United States) right now, it is not hard to realize that the 100-1,000+ sample size that you or I are referring to in our reckoning is not really an accurate gauge of what the majority are experiencing. The site that you write for does not allow any positive MK feedback. Many of the sites that I frequent and hope to draw traffic from do not allow negative MK feedback. That is why I hope this site will become a place where everyone can post their honest opinions about MK without fear of alienation from their circle of influence.

    I think that if 100,000 people tell their story here, the percentage represented there will hopefully be a fair display of the average experience in MK. That may be overly aggressive since many people don’t deem it ‘worth their time’ to get involved in this sort of thing. The ones that are doing well don’t want to waste their time trying to convince people they are right. They are simply happy knowing they are right. The ones that are hurt are often too embarrassed to admit they had a bad experience because they think it is their fault. I am trying to make this a place as non-combative as possible. If someone (such as yourself) begins making statements that are not accompanied by hard evidence, I will do my best to point out where I believe they have strayed from fact to felling. I don’t mind emotionally charged feelings being expressed here, in fact I would encourage it. It is a part of the equation. Our feelings play a very real role in how we perceive things. However, facts must be backed up by evidence and feelings must be expressed as feelings. I am primarily interested in people telling their story here. They are anonymous so hopefully they will feel that they can be completely honest.

    I know that you have mentioned that things did not work out well for you and your wife. If you would care to put your story in writing, how you got started, where things went wrong, who you felt was to blame, and any other element that you deem relevant, I would love to post it here.


  9. I would like to add my two cents on the whole no one held a gun to your head to order loads of inventory. No. No one held a gun to my head. Believe me, most of what I ordered is still sitting in the shed, collecting dust. I do not blame MKC for this. Not totally. BUT . . . I bought inventory because I was told by my director that IT WOULD SELL. Not maybe, not probably. But that IT WOULD. I was also told that no body wanted to wait, so you had to have inventory. She lead me to believe that people would be lining up to host skin care classes. She told me she would help me get classes.

    I was very much against selling to my friends and family at full price. That just seemed wrong. Why should they pay that much for something, when they weren't buying it before. I didn't want to use them to build my business.

    So I can see where some IBC's blame MK since they were probably told the same thing I was. Or they got the phone call from the director asking for "help" to reach HER next goal. Women cannot seem to help themselves when it comes to helping someone else.

    And my director told me she would let me come with her to her SCC. So I ordered. And then she gave me all these motivational speeches about how I could do it. And she gave me CD's where Nationals tell me that I can do it. I KNOW I CAN DO IT! I just wanted someone to show me how. And that never happened. I did get some classes on my own. I had fishbowls - had to give the owner of the company 10%. Seemed reasonable. But 10% to her, 60% back in inventory, does not leave much after expenses.

    So, no. No one made me order. They just tell you that they are #1 and you think that they are #1 to the end customer, not to you. They tell you about the psycological profiles they do on you to see what "TYPE" you are, and then tell you that with your tpye you can definately do it. And since MK is fake it till you make it and don't be negitive no one actually tells you that is it not easy. You cannot make 6 figures in less than 15 hours a week. They tell you to hire a sitter and get out there and work.

    I am now exhausted. Haven't had my coffee, yet. And I am getting angry all over again. At my director, not MKC. I have found a loophole that allows me to get my money back, so I am not out any money. But time and effort and the amounts of humiliation I felt when I found out how many actually DO NOT MAKE it in this industry . . . That is another story!

  10. Judi, "they" didn't tell you, your director told you. I would have told you that just because you have signed an agreement and are now a consultant and you are excited, noone else knows that and people are not going to line up and be knocking on your front door - that this is a business that will need to be built one client at a time and is not a get rich quick scheme. I tell them right in the interview, if that is what they are looking for, then this opportunity is not for them.

    Personally, I don't believe my new unit members should start with a large inventory. I would much prefer they start with some and then as they build their customer base and figure out what they sell the best, they can then build their inventory accordingly. If they don't book and hold classes as they should, they won't be stressed about having product collecting dust on their shelves. This is MY belief. I don't want to always be replacing unit members once I take time to get them trained, I want consultants that stay because they are making money and then continue to add new unit members so we grow and grow. If a consultant is making money, she will stay and be happy and productive, if a consultant is loosing money, she will quit.

    This product can be sold and easily. As far as clients not wanting to wait- a brand new client may be willing to wait, however when you have an established client who calls you because she ran out of her cleanser last night in the shower and needs it right away, she doesn't want to wait a week to wash her face again.

    When I started my MK Journey I had no intention of doing it fulltime, after two years I left a career (Corp. Accountant/Business Financial Analyst) to pursue MK fulltime. I was a brand new director and have been happily and profitably operating my business now for 14 years. I have acheived the Court of Sales 12 of those years. My husband makes fun of how much I have personally in the bathroom that I use so trust me, I don't have boxes of product in my basement, garage, attic, or any other storage place. I need to buy the product because I am selling the product. Over 500 faithful clients do use alot of product.

    I believe there are good directors and I believe there are bad directors. I believe that you will find good and bad people in any business, in any part of life for that matter.

    I truly feel sad for any human being that is so lost that they will buy recognition from a director or to walk across the stage. The sadder thought is if they needed the recognition that badly, then how in the world do they feel good when they are recognized when they realize the are "fakes". I would think at this point their self esteem would drop even further. I would also be upset if I had ethically earned an award/recognition and then was beat out by someone who had "bought" her award.

    The Company didn't set up the program for a consultant to buy and $1800 toaster. They set it up as an incentive for the consultant to sell enough that you need to restock your inventory. I don't understand how anyone would quarter after quarter "buy" something for $1800. Maybe it is because of my background but I find the biggest reason consultants fail is poor money management. My unit members are trained from the start on smart finances. If you buy something at a 50% off and sell it for more than you paid for it, you will make money.

    I tend not to take the cars as financially I feel it is a better decision to take the cash comp and if you buy a vehicle you can have it paid off in 4 years and have a vehicle that is still worth value to you. If you use a Company vehicle for 4 years at the end of the 4 years you basically don't have anything to show for it.

    I also give my family a discount because I wouldn't feel right charging them full price either but my family is a very small % of my client base.

    I love what I do. I love this Company, I love this product, I love my unit members, my family, my church and hate hearing of a director that misuses her power to manipulate a consultant because it does tarnish the rest of us but all I can do is maintain my values and ethics and lead by example of the proper way to do things.

    I can say I have several consultants in my unit that have had a "first" lifetime in Mary Kay had gotten out and have decided to try it again and have shared how much they love the way our unit operates. I know I am not the only director that truly cares about the success of her people. I was always taught in my former profession, watch who you step on going up the ladder of success because you might have to go past those individuals again on your trip down that very same ladder. So if you operate from the stand point on what is best for the consultant and not what the consultant can do for you, everyone will be happy in the long run. It is true, what you send into the lives of others will come back to you tenfold.

    Blessed- I am sorry things didn't work for your wife and it sounds like she really needed the praise and recognition she was getting from her director and that director took advantage of her need for recognition. Maybe she needed it from the director because it was missing from her other areas of her life. You sound very supportive of her now in her being out of Mary Kay, where you as supportive of her when she was in? And if you were, are you telling us that you fell for the manipulation of this director? As anti MK as you are now, could any of it be guilt for not being more attentive when she was in? Or is it anger because you fell for it too?

    I will never understand if you had a bad experience in MK, well, get out and move on. If you want to spend time on something, I would want to spend my time and energy for a cause that really needed warriors. Starving children, cancer research, aids research, etc. areas where you really will make a difference. But, that is just me.

    David - Best of luck to you and your wife in her business. And nice job on this site. Contrary to some beliefs, I believe steady and strong is the way to build. It was the turtle and not the hare that won the race.

    Sorry this is long, and I won't be posting often as I just don't have time to be blogging so Blessed, no need to go into a lengthy response because I don't know when I will have time to visit again. I couldn't sleep tonight and was reading to get tired and just had to respond after reading. Now I feel ready to doze off so...

  11. Judi -

    Thank you for contributing to the conversation.

    I am not sure (based on your descriptions) if I can blame your director or not.

    One of the things about sales is that there is not really a whole lot of technical know how involved with selling. I am not sure (aside from learning about the product) what training you felt you needed and were not provided with. The best ways to improve your sales skills are observation, experience and reinforcement of why the product you have is "simply the best"

    No matter what you sell, someone will always have a better product. Someone will always have a less expensive product. What is important is that you as the sales person keep what makes your product the best in plain sight. A good salesman(woman) knows what makes his/her product better than all the others on the market.

    Overcoming objections like, "your product is more expensive than brand x" and "your product is not as 'good' as brand y" That is why you will find a lot of 'pep rally' like activity at meetings. The more excited you are about the product you are selling the better you will do. Most people will purchase something based on the confidence they have in the person/company they are buying from. Think about your own buying patterns. When you have to decide between two brands, how do decide? Obviously there are a lot of elements involved. Price. Quality. Availability. Aesthetics. There are a lot, but if you dig a little deeper, it will almost always be the one that makes you FEEL best. It is difficult to admit to ourselves, but because we are emotional people, we most often make these decisions emotionally. So, although it may not have been advanced level engineering and mechanics, you were receiving training.

    On the flip side, since you are running a business, there should be instruction on running a business. I don't know what the averages are like across the board but I know that my wife has gotten some excellent training in this area.

    I agree with MK4ME and have said elsewhere that no matter what people say about how great the product sells, how important it is for you to order, etc. there is no logical reason for people to continue buying product when the first batch they bought hasn't sold. I have read that some people are recommending as large as $6,000 for initial inventory. I personally don't think this will be a good idea for most newcomers. Again, there will always be exceptions, and for some people, this kind of initial investment would be good. However, regardless of how much someone spent initially, if that original inventory didn't sell, why would they buy more? It is hard for me to understand.

    I know this is a little late, but I am sorry to have gotten you worked up, I hope you got the coffee you needed!

    Thanks for your unique perspective.

  12. mk4me,

    Thanks for sharing. I think that you and I share a very similar perspective of most elements of Mary Kay.

    -Slow and steady
    -Not buying levels of recognition
    -We are not there yet, but I think there is a good chance that we will not take the car when we get there. My wife is really pumped about the pink Caddy though... so we will see. Our approach to that will be similar to everything else. If it is not a financially sound and business smart move, no matter how 'exciting' it is, it doesn't make the cut!

    You are more than welcome to post here whenever you like. I understand that the busyness of life may prove prohibitive. However, the value of your input is high in my estimation.

    Thank you

  13. MK4ME: "They" DID tell me. Not just my director, other directors, my national. I went to every training meeting offered in the beginning. It was all positive. No one talked about the down side. And you need to hear that it will be hard. Because it will. And when you only hear how easy it is when it gets hard you think it must be you. And it's not only you if more than half of the IBC's quit. MOST people DO NOT succeed in this business.

    David, I do not completely blame my director. I believe she is only doing what she is taught. I can't hold her to my level of honesty. She lied to me, she deceived me, she lead me to believe something totally diferent from the truth. Most people in this world lie. I don't blame her. You can't walk around blaming everyone else for what you ultimately do. But I know first hand the manipulation and I would like to warn others of that. That's another reason why I like this site. It seems balanced. You don't advocate starting with a large order initally. So many directors tell you to. I was also told by quite a few directors and a national to keep spending habits from my husband. And a $100 pair of shoes, yes, I don't inform him of that right when he walks in the door. But to hide THOUSANDS of dollars worth of product? Were they insane? I never came across a good director while in this business. On line there have been quite a few who say how they really direct their offsprings. I wish I could have been taught by them. I just didn't have a good experience and I hear more bad experiences on line and in person than good so I can't help but believe that most people out there in this company are not on the up and up.

    And until I see Schedule Cs of profit and expenses I will not belive that many people are making much profit. That you can keep.

  14. David,

    I believe there’s a “honeymoon period” in MK that, for some, can last two, three years or more. It’s during this period, I’ve observed, that faith in a commitment trumps a rational sense of objective judgement that would otherwise easily prevail. I’ve learned there is great power in hope. I’ve also learned hopeful delusional thinking can too easily be confused with the simple, honest, goodness of genuine hope. Such confusion can be that much more prevalent when hopeful delusions are fueled by the kind of hype so common to Mary Kay Cosmetics, especially if the hype is delivered by one who occupies a position of trust (that close “friend” who is also the MK director).

    Also, I believe some too often confuse healthy skepticism with cynicism. Those with a healthy sense of skepticism usually don’t buy a time share property within an hour after the salesman’s presentation. A healthy sense of skepticism will help many understand a TV infomercial is not a completely objective source of reliable information. However, a healthy sense of skepticism won’t hamper ones ability to appreciate that the vast majority of the world is inherently good. A cynic, on the other hand, believes everyone is out to get ya and there is very little good in the world.

    I offer my suggesting that the Mary Kay “opportunity” be viewed with the eyes of a skeptic. And I request those who are fortunate enough to stumble onto the don’t view the information provided there through the eyes of a cynic. As the purchase of the starter kit becomes an event further in the past, and as the MK honeymoon period concludes (however long yours ultimately lasts), you too, I believe, will come to view the opportunity with a more healthy sense of skepticism.

    That’s kind of an important piece you’ve not yet shared with us. How long has it been since your wife purchased the starter kit? If I recall correctly, I believe you recently wrote she has reached a point where she can now actually pay the internet and TV cable bill with her MK earnings. I could have easily, though, misunderstood what you were saying as to what her level of net MK income is today.

    So then, tell me, if you’re so inclined, what’s the “dream” pulling in (net ) for the household today? How long has it been since your wife purchased the starter kit?

    P.S.: Again, nice to see someone so aggressively defending his wife’s position. I believe that, with time, you’ll discover your best support of her will be in sharing your skeptical observations about the “opportunity.” At the end of the day it may turn out your situation and mine have an uncanny number of similarities; the big difference may simply be I’ve circled the block a few more times than you. Good luck, and keep lovin’ your wife!

    Please know the above presentation is the product of anecdotal, rather than empirical, observations.


  15. David, have you wondered why Blessed always thanks you for letting his comments remain? Because he got banned from my blog. I kept asking him, as you have, to quit stating falsehoods as facts and he would not. At that time, he led us all to believe he was a woman. He revealed to me privately he was a man. Watch him--he's got a persona all right.

    I wish I had more time to read this whole blog but I don't. You seem to be holding your own very well from what I have skimmed. Maybe over the weekend.....

    In the meantime, have a great Thanksgiving.

  16. Judi,

    I know that you have commented extensively on the other post, so my thoughts here will be rather brief.

    There is a significant difference between disclosing in the beginning that something has the potential to be difficult, and talking positively once you are invested in something.

    I don’t think that the majority of consultants walk around pretending it is easy. I hear a lot of, “This is such a GREAT company” and “I really enjoy what I do” and “Our products are fantastic”. These are all example of being positive. I do not often hear, “This is so easy” or “I can’t believe how little effort this takes” or “I have so many customers I don’t know what to do with them”. These would be rather deceptive, but frankly, I don’t hear people saying them – For recruiting purposes or to “stay positive”.

    I have said this before, but I believe that people hear what they want to hear. It seems like we all have a switch in our brain that allows us to distance ourselves from the “others”. When we hear about somebody going door to door, 12 hours a day, 6 days a week to achieve certain results, we somehow assume that we will be able to accomplish the same results in 6 hours a day, 3 days a week. I am not saying that this happened in your case, but I challenge you to think back to what was actually said, and where your brain maybe filled in some blanks.

    When you accuse someone of something as brutal as lying, “She lied to me, she deceived me, she lead me to believe something totally diferent from the truth.”, I have to ask you to give some more specific details. What specific things were you promised (whether or not those promises were made explicit) that were not delivered?

    Did anyone really tell you that it was going to be easy? Here is what I mean specifically. If you are only interested in pursuing this as a hobby or for a little extra money on the side, it IS easy. I mean if carrying a catalog around with you and showing it to people you run into is not easy, I don’t know what is! It would not be lying if someone told you that were easy! And again, I find it difficult to believe that someone told you that you would make 6 figures “easily”. It is even harder to believe that MOST recruiters are saying this. When you say that you hear more bad stories than good, I have to ask, are you discrediting the good stories because they don’t have enough evidence, but accepting the bad stories at face value because they “don’t have a reason to lie”?

    Now about hiding finances from your spouse (husband in this case). Every one will approach this topic from a different mindset so I know I don’t speak for everyone. Here is my view. When you get married, you covenant with another person to share everything. Not 50/50, 100/100. I know, I know, that would be 200, but I think you understand. I believe that anything that I claim to be mine is now ours. Anything my wife claims to be hers, is ours. When we make a decision, WE make a decision. I know this may seem old fashioned to most. But it is the way we both see our new life (singular intentional) together. I know that some people are encouraged to hide this endeavor from their spouse. I don’t know what the circumstances were/are when someone is encouraged to do this, and I am sure that it is not always justified.

    Thank you.

    (I guess not so brief!!)

  17. I am very tired of all the stereotyping on both sides of the fence. Not all MK peopel lie and manipulate and not all people who quit MK are losers that didn't try hard enough.

    What one person can say may not be true for another. One thing I have heard is "she lied to me because she said this MK is easy to sell". Why must she have been lying? If I made that statement I would be telling the truth. (I do not use this line in interviewing) For me this business has been easy. Just because it comes easy for me, doesn't mean it will for everyone. I have watched consultants do everything right and still not have it "click". I have also seen unskilled excited new consultants just do great. Why? Some people just seem to attract and have an instant connection with people and others don't. This doesn't make anyone better than anyone else, just different.

    IMHO, it is just like any other thing in life, some are going to be outstanding at it, some average, and well, just won't be so good at it.

    I have used this example before but it is worth repeating. I love to sing. However, no matter how many voices lessons I would take, no matter how much I practiced,no matter how hard I tried, no matter how badly I wanted to sing professionally, it just isn't going to happen. I stink. I love it but even I know just how bad I am. I sing in the car when I am alone and that is about it. Every person in this world can't be good at everything.

    As far as how many consultants quit every year, many small business owners don't make it past the first couple of years. The difference is it is easy to give something like Mary Kay a chance because it doesn't require the large amount of money to start your own business as it would to start a MacDonalds. You can earn a fair income supporting 200-300 customers where if you owned a McD's and you only serviced 200-300people you would very rapidly be out of business.

    As for posting Schedule C information, it would not be proof to anyone because it would be to easy to create a document. But I can give an example of an average month for a Grand Prix/Saturn level director. (All the below information can be checked with Mary Kay as far as the %'s)

    This would be based on approx a $10,000 wholesale month with $5000 coming from my personal team and one new qualified team member.
    *(I am leaving off some of the other bonuses available to keep the example conservative)and because personally I don't put in fulltime hours.

    Director 13% 1300.00
    Director Bonus 1000.00
    Team Production 650.00
    1 Qualified Team Mem 100.00
    Cash Comp for Car 500.00

    $3550 a month for commissions

    Personal sales (mine average $3000) at 50% add in another $1500.

    So that is $5050 and my monthly expenses are roughly $1000 - so that means about $4000 a month $4000 @ 12 months is $48,000/yr
    (Add in the $750 Wellness Bonus)
    Add in the prizes and then consider the benefits of being self employed and for me the flexiblity to work when I want and very often from my home, not having to spend the money on gas to drive to and from an office every day and to buy lunch every day. Then add in the fact I can put the kids on the bus in the morning, be there when they get home to help them with home work, volunteer to chaparone the field trips, be home if I do go out for a party in time to say good night and still have time for a third shift hubby and all five of the kids and three dogs and two cats and three fish.

    For us finacially, not working to be a stay at home mother/wife is not an option so personally, I could not ask for a better opportunity to "Have it all".

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

  18. Hi Blessed,

    Skepticism and Cynicism. Very illustrative example.
    Honeymoon period. Also an excellent illustration.

    Let’s break those down a little more shall we?

    One could argue that my site here features skepticism. I am skeptical about whether or not Mary Kay is a good opportunity. I am skeptical (VERY) about whether or not Pink Truth publishes the truth. Ok, that is not true; I am convinced that they are NOT truthful. However, on this site I present queries about their site in a skeptical light, no absolutes.

    I don’t think the same can be said for Pink Truth. Would you not agree that the tone, feel and overall environment of Pink Truth is one of cynicism? I am using your definition here. Isn’t the whole point of that site to “warn people to not let the ‘kay-bots’ get ya”? If you want people who go to that site to approach it with skepticism and not cynicism, don’t you have to present a skeptical point of view? If Pink Truth is NOT cynical, and I AM than you probably need to change your definitions of those two words.

    My wife and I have approached Mary Kay with the same healthy level of skepticism we approach everything with. We do not rush into decisions. (Except one time when we needed to buy a car and we bought the second one we looked at… but that is neither here nor there!) We have been given time share presentations. We were so skeptical of one that they finally gave us a “trial membership” that was actually quite enjoyable. We are still not time share owners! We purchased land in Washington State, built a house on it, and sold it, all from Southern California. You should have seen the levels of skepticism we employed on that venture! But we did our due diligence, ONLY worked with people we trusted, and had a really great adventure!

    Back to Mary Kay!

    I suppose that it is possible that you joined MK with out any reservations and that if you had utilized said skepticism in the process you would have steered clear. That does not mean however that other people (like myself and my wife) did not exercise caution and still decide that it was a sound decision for them. We weighed our options, and Mary Kay fit what we were looking for. We are still keeping that option “on the scale” so to speak. Like any career, if it becomes more work than its worth, or we find ourselves in a situation where we “have to do something” that goes against our values to “stay in the club”, we have no problem cutting bait and leaving. There is nothing in our lives that we place above God. So far, there has been no controversy in that area. From what I have seen, I don’t anticipate it either!

    Ok, the honeymoon period.

    It saddens me that you use this illustration. Mainly because it leads me to believe that your view of marriage is not very healthy. I see the honeymoon period of a marriage as a blissful time where “love” comes easily because you are both still enraptured in all the tingly-skinned ecstasy of being ‘just married’. It is after the ‘feelings’ wear off that the test of your resolve and commitment begins. This should not be a ‘bad’ part of the relationship. This is the part where your Love actually grows. When you choose every day to Love that foul-breathed, messy, smelly guy or (if you’re the guy) choose every day to Love that uptight, way-too-long-getting-primped-in-the-mirror, neat freak you start to understand that Love has nothing to do with what you feel, or what you get, but what you have to offer. I wont go into much more detail, but it is through the way that my wife has loved me and I her that I have come to a deeper understanding of the way that God loves me.

    That being said:

    To compare purchasing your starter kit and beginning life as an MK consultant is probably quite accurate. However, to say that when the honeymoon is over, you will “snap out of it and come to your senses and think logically” makes me worried about what happened when your real life “honeymoon period” was over. My wife also had a honeymoon period with MK. EVERYTHING was super exciting! I swear, the cardboard boxes filled with new product, the little Cadillac Business Card Holder, nothing was plain. It all carried an excitement. Even placing labels (with her name and address) on every product she was going to send out was fun. That has faded. I am not saying that she doesn’t get excited about Mary Kay. In fact, there are still times that her energy impresses me… and I was ALWAYS the excitable one! But the thing is, now that the “honeymoon” is over, she has moved on to a (shall I say it) deeper ‘love’ of what she does.

    I think that what you are tying to say is that the honeymoon period is a time of deception. After that ‘freebie’ time is over, you will wake up and realize that you made a big mistake. I am sorry to say, I don’t live this way. When I make a commitment to something, it is not lightly. If I realize that I made a mistake, I bow out gracefully. If I feel that I was deceived or tricked into doing something, I report my personal experience to the authorities. One time, I was promised something from a company. I signed up and delivered what I had committed to deliver. The thing that I was promised was not received. After attempting at length to reason with the “powers that be” at that particular company I withdrew my business and filed a complaint with the BBB. I did not tell anyone that this company was ripping off everyone. I didn’t say they were ripping off most everyone. I didn’t say that they had ripped off a lot of people. All I said was that they ripped me off. I don’t feel that I was ‘on a honeymoon’ with this company and then snapped out of it. I was simply misled. I would respect Pink Truth if they would list the grievances they have with the company. Specifically and clearly. With evidence if possible. However, they have taken the low road and have resorted to speculation and vague accusations.

    It is for these reasons that I have started this site. I aim to approach Mary Kay with skepticism and help people do the same. There are pitfalls involved in this and any business endeavor. Because my wife is currently involved and immensely enjoying herself, I saw fit to create a site that endeavors to honestly set out the truth about the Mary Kay Opportunity. This is why I have cautioned you in the past about making statements that are opinions sound like facts. It is also why I have asked you (now twice) to tell your story. What made you join? Where did things go wrong? In what ways do you feel you were deceived? (whether or not those promises were made explicit) I have yet to hear from you on this. If you are ashamed to share, let me promise you that I have no interest in exposing you, or shaming you. You will ONLY feel the brunt of my literary tongue wagging when you speak condescendingly to my readers or myself. Please feel free to share your story so that I can post it on this site as a part of this balanced community.

    As I said before, more details of my wife’s experience with Mary Kay will emerge as they become appropriate to the conversation at hand. I would probably share them here, but I am beginning to become wary (read: skeptical) of your intentions here. You seem to be very inquisitive. That is fine of course. Ask all the questions you like. But this site has to be a give and take. I have shared quite extensively and intimately about how we run this business and I really have nothing to hide. However, I am not going to satiate your curiosity if you are not contributing to the discussion. While your above comment was a contribution of sorts, because you have not backed it up with answers to the questions that would validate it, it is not really beneficial. Believe me; I love to tell a good story. I love illustrating points with examples. But if all I did was tell stories, and never explained WHY those stories are like Mary Kay (or whatever I am trying to explain) I am not really making a point at all.

    If you so desire, poke around a little bit, I know that I have stated somewhere how long we have been involved with Mary Kay. (It may have been on my friend Scam’s site) I am sure that it will naturally come up again in the near future. Stay tuned!

    Thanks for your participation.

  19. ME,

    Good to hear from you again.

    No, I have not wondered. I know that he knows that he is pushing the envelope, and that I hold the power of deleting/keeping his comments. The thing is, I want people to say what they feel here. I would prefer that they bring some solid evidence to the table. I would prefer that they describe in detail what happened, where they went wrong, what lies specifically were told. However, most people are not capable of thinking and writing at the same time (myself included) and sometimes we just have to ‘vent’ a little before we can express what really happened. Sometimes, doing that helps us realize that we were not wronged, we just misunderstood some things. So, as long as he maintains the behavior that I request on this site, namely not being condescending and not stating opinions as facts, I will allow his rants… just like I allow mine! I of course reserve the right to delete any comment that is offensive or inappropriate and I think he knows that.

    Re: His being a man or a woman. From what he has said so far, he is claiming to be a husband of someone who was involved in Mary Kay and did not fare well. If that is just a “made up” persona, well that is his prerogative. He may not be “blessed” from Pink Truth. He may in fact be Tracy. I don’t know, and I don’t care. As long as he respectfully participates in the discussion, I will allow it. I have asked him a couple of times now to tell us a little bit more about his story. The lack of detail or even concrete complaints is, to say the least, suspect. Oh well, Oh well.

    Take your time reading the stuff here. I am quite happy with the results so far. I think there is some good conversation going on. If reading my blog would be a fulfilling way for you to spend your Thanksgiving Weekend, I would be honored. If you have something better to do, I would not be offended. I personally will spend hours perusing blogs and websites because I love to read and I find people fascinating. Whatever floats your boat, right?

    I wish you a fantastic Thanksgiving as well and thanks for the heads up!

  20. MK4ME,

    Wow, wow, wow. Well said. You seem to have a knack for putting your thoughts on paper. I am impressed. Thank you.

    You have said it well. Mary Kay is what it is. It is an opportunity to sell a product. You may be good at it, you may not.

    There are some people that believe anyone can be good at it. I think these people are usually “A” type personalities. I am not sure what that equals in MK’s letters, but what I am saying is that people who are cut and dry, black and white, this is the way things are, tend to think that everyone is (or should be) like them. They go out and sell MK like it is the nectar of the gods. They can’t go more than a day or two without finding someone that absolutely MUST try the product. They probably don’t know what a “bad sales week” feels like. They also can’t understand that some people might not be like them! We all know these people. They are fun to be around (at least for a phlegmatic like me) because you don’t really have to think. They will make the decisions for you. They say, “I love sushi, do you like sushi? Let’s get sushi”. So you have sushi for lunch.

    But get two people like me together and look out. What do you want for lunch? I dunno, what do you want? Sushi? Sure, why not. Meh, I’m not really in the mood. Yeah me neither. What SHOULD we have? What do YOU feel like?..... you get the idea.

    So, you have some people that had such a good experience with MK that they HONESTLY can’t imagine anyone NOT having a good experience. This is a weakness, and should fade over time, as they realize that not everyone is like them.

    Then you have the people that signed up with those people. They were so infectious that all kinds of people just jumped right on board. In an attempt to duplicate their results, they acted like and talked like the “A” type that recruited them. Perhaps even lied about how easy it was to sell. If Jane says its easy to sell, and people obviously flock to her, than maybe if I say it is easy to sell, people will flock to me.

    It sadly reminds me of my High School years. I saw a buff, jock-type dude impressing girls by flexing his huge biceps and walking around with his shirt off. You can imagine the results when my frail frame tried to do the same thing. I was all of 98 pounds and the only ‘definition’ you saw on my chest was my ribs. I impressed nobody. Unless providing five minutes of side splitting comedy counts as impressing somebody.

    I imagine that anyone who has been told that they would make 6 figures easily was being addressed either by the overly secure, everything-just-falls-in-my-lap, charmer and was not really lied to intentionally or by the people in their shadow, trying to duplicate their results. I don’t think that there are nearly as many of either of these people in Mary Kay as some people would try to claim. However, I don’t doubt that they are out there. I think this is why the concept of the “iStory” is so important. If you hear my wife tell her story about having to work her little butt off everyday and the slow and steady method she employs you should not leave thinking it is going to be a breeze. If you hear three different people’s experiences, you will probably get three very unique perspectives of Mary Kay. I love hearing people telling their story. “This is what it was like for me.” It is so simple, and in the multitude of experiences, you gain a more focused picture of what you might be able to expect from your experience.

    I think (at your suggestion) I will open a McDonalds! After the 300th customer walks through the door, we are closed for the remainder of that month! I can’t wait!!! Great Point!!!!

    Thank you for posting your numbers here. I hope to do a similar breakdown soon describing my wife’s numbers, but it seems to be all I can do when I get home from work to respond to comments and maybe post some thoughts about MK or PT.

    Your well worded thoughts are greatly appreciated.

    Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!

  21. Hi, David--Blessed is not Tracy, I do know that. His IP generally comes from a federal government building in which he works in the DC area. His home IP is in the same area. I have even managed to find out his identity because I know someone that works in the same building as he, but I'll not reveal it. I'm not even sure Blessed knew that until just now. I've not had any contact with him in recent months because his comments are considered spam on my blog so I never see them.

    As far as I know his wife had a bad experience in Mary Kay--to my knowledge he is not making that up. What does annoy the cootie out of you as far as he is concerned is that he does those "left-handed compliments" or says nice things when they are veiled in sarcasm and his patronizing attitude. He did not follow directions or honor requests on my blog so he was history--at the request of all my regular readers.

    Anyway--I'm off to my holiday. Later!


  22. Me,

    Good morning.

    I miss being able to post on your blog. I’m sorry you believe I am an “obnoxious” person.

    Please recall I never presented myself as a woman on your blog. You simply choose to identify me as such. In fact, on a number of occasions I went as far as to point out that you (and others on your blog at the time) were assigning inaccurate characteristics to me.

    Once again, let me say you are assigning inaccurate characteristics to me. Let’s make a friendly wager that perhaps one day one of us can settle with the other. I bet you an ice cold Coke that, once again, you’re wrong about the characteristics you’ve assigned to me. If you’re so sure I can be found in a “...federal government building in which he works in the DC area,” have your friend who purportedly works in the same building with me come up and tap me on the shoulder. Have him ask me if my wife has ever been a MK IBC. Believe me, I’ve never been coy about telling anyone I work with how I feel about the “opportunity.” Let me know what your friend says and maybe together, we can figure a way you can get that ice cold Coke to me.

    There is a reason many of us who espouse a position supporting the Mary Kay Cosmetics Clarity movement do so from behind the veil of anonymity offered by blogs. Just take a moment and look at the level of personal character assassination launched against the one person who had the testicular fortitude to reveal her identity as she offered opinions counter to that presented by MK. I don’t wanna be targeted in such a way.

    I don’t know what caused such personal animosity between you and TC. I don’t want to know. I don’t care. I do believe the offers much information to many who want out of the “dream,” i.e., how to return product, a supportive environment to vent, etc. I applaud what Tracy has done with the

    I’m also sorry you believe I’m “condescending.” Please know it is not my intention to be condescending. Although I’ll never promote the “opportunity,” I’d much rather be construed as a supporter of the many wonderful women both in and out of MK.

    “Me,” have a great Thanksgiving.


  23. David,

    I’ve already given you a very revealing glimpse at where I’ve come from, my MK experience. See here:

    Don’t you think this article reveals much about my experience with MK? I noticed comments from you about this article were conspicuously absent from your blog. This is about as close as I get to an “I story.”


  24. Happy Thanksgiving everyone! OK, David you have me hooked for a little while because I do take alot of time off over the Holidays. I have always loved a good debate and I have always thought one of my strengths is being able to step away from any issue and view it as an outsider. (Minoring in psych) probably helped some.

    I have to admit before I started reading the blogs, I was pretty naive for a woman of my years. I did read some absolute horror stories on pt that were too ridicules to have been made up. Some of the items that were reported shocked the daylights out of me that directors would even do some of the things that had been done. Honestly, not only were some of the items ethically wrong they were also illegal and criminal acts. I was appauled and very embarrassed that a representative of the Company I love so much would cast such a negative light on all of us. These people should be punished period, white collar crime is still crime. After reading some of this stuff, I must admit, it instilled in me even more that I needed to lead by example, that I needed to go above and beyond in doing the right thing. I can't not change the bad ones but I can lead by example. Anyone in contact with me in my unit or works with me as an adoptee, sister director, etc... will judge me on my actions, no one elses. I do have the power to influence those I am in contact with by setting a good example. The issue with PT is that they don't want to address the issues, they "want to throw the baby out with the bath water". The Company as a whole is a great opportunity for many individuals, no it is not for everyone, not everyone is disciplined enough not to have a boss or a schedule. Thinking about MK 24 hours a day does not bring in any $. You must act on your thoughts.

    If a director is doing something wrong, take it to the Company with your proof. The Company has and does take action when they have evidence of wrong doing. Supported by past posts of PT. Thank to one of the posters, she complained that MK had terminated her directorship and she didn't know why, noone would tell her. Boom, one day she just got a letter telling her she was no longer a directo. This does sound horrible.

    Another thread same poster goes on to say how whenever she does home expos, bridal fairs, etc... she always sold her products and made money, she didn't understand why everyone didn't do that...(this is paraphrased and it is rusty in my brain so this may be a little off but the general concept is represented).. okay duh..... you have been selling products at "retail" type setting and always do?? Hmmm, this is in direct violation of our agreement. You learn this as a consultant and if you have made it to directorship and haven't learned this, you haven't taken any personal responsibilty for your position. My guess is other MK people had reported her for publicly selling and she simply continued to do so after she had been warned. It is always fun to watch someone prove your point for you without saying you saying a word. As you mentioned, it sometimes does require someone pointing out the discrepancies. The Company will not terminate just because they are in a bad mood. They will go to extremes not to terminate a director because it really upsets the entire unit.

    This is getting way too long so I will just make one last point. Being a director is far more than just wearing the suit. The Company does not make someone become a director. It is a personal choice. If you make the choice to "direct" other people you should step up to the plate, and learn and teach and train those you have decided to support. Too many people want to be a director for the prestige. We must remember we are earning commissions based on production because that is our pay for supporting our unit. When you sign your director contract and take the oath, you know what you are doing. If you are not willing to do it, then don't take the position. You can still earn a fair parttime in come and drive free as a team leader/future director. Those that join and make it to director ship in a short period of time don't know enough to be in the suit. From watching consultants over the years, I truly believe it take 9 - 12 months to figure out how to do a skin care class, book, sell, recruit, juggle schedules, etc...and make it all work together before you add the responsiblity of taking care of others. How can you teach something you haven't really figured out yourself. (There are always exceptions to any rule). I do wish the Company would require more time from joing the Company to becoming a director simply because the majority that do it fast, do it weak and then begin to struggle, when you are struggling and down and depressed and stressed, everything seems harder. I wish they would go back to requiring 12 consultants to start DIQ versus 8. Numbers are numbers. In a unit of 30 you will have one superstar and then 1/3 will be good, 1/3 will be there, and 1/3 are going out the door. So if a brand new director decides to "be a director" instead of a consultant, she just retired the superstar of her unit and usually is directing a group of people that don't require a whole lot of direction. A new director will be there for her unit but much of her time still needs to be spent as a consultant. If you don't like being a consultant, the goal should not be to become a director so you don't have to be a consultant anymore. The choice better made would be to find another callinl.

    And in closing in the Mary Kay letters, I believe you are talking about the DISC personality types and I will have to agree with you the "I"'s, influencing the type of individuals that love to be the life of the party, the ones that jump up and down when they win a little prize, that just love the recognition (the rah-rah types) are the ones most likely to fall to the traps of the prizes, etc. Give me a unit of S/C any day, they are going to take their time, they will want to learn everything before they go out and do it, they will be methodically but they will be dependable. Steady eddies! I was a Corp. Accountant/Business Fincial Analyst for 15 years, I worked primarily in an office with a calculator. You don't get much rah rah.

    People can never figure me out, I am deathly shy and you can hurt my feeling looking at my crosseyed, I do care what people think about me and I want people to like me and I like making people happy. But because I am confident in my ablilities as a beauty consultant and a sales director, I appear to be a strong out-going woman. Just to give any shy ones out there hope, after 14 years the reasons I love long skirts is because be it a skin care class or unit meeting, or teaching at a Company event, my knees still shake and I have butterflies in my stomach and if you listen closely you can hear my voice cracking but after I get into "my zone" I get so passioned about what I am doing, I could talk your ear off (or in this case write your eyes off).

    Honestly, this time, I've got to go attend to the turkey or my family will be eating a frozen bird tomorrow!

    I have enjoyed your site, when you have a chance though if you read thru some of the back articles on ME's blog, there are some very good articles with examples.

  25. Oops, the post above is from MK4ME, not Anonymous. I am a little ADD at times!

  26. ME, Blessed,

    I don't think that you have (yet), but please do not let your personal issues spill over on this site too much!

    So far, in my humble opinion, ME seems to be more straightforward and reliable in her interpretation of what she observes. If I had to choose who I believe, ME, you get the vote!

    I appreciate that you did not reveal the identity that you believe him to be (whether or not that is who it is). This should indeed be a safe place for people who choose to remain anonymous.

    Regarding the so called "assaults on the character of TC", I don't think that they had anything to do with her "offering opinions counter to that presented by MK". I think that most people's complaints about her revolve around her twisting of the truth and unfounded accusations. I have also heard some very disturbing complaints about the way she treats people on her site and threats made against other blog owners. It is one thing to raise questions and point out problems with a company like Mary Kay. What she does goes beyond that. What I have observed in the public, daily posts on that site is misleading content AT BEST. I have discussed some of those things here. It seems that people that have begun personal vendettas against her were as a result of personal issues, NOT because she was critical of Mary Kay.

    Blessed, your anonymity will always be protected here, and it seems even ME has no interest in exposing your real identity.

    I am also curious, do you really think that you don't come across as condescending? Do you read your comments before you post them? Do you know what condescending means? I have to agree with ME. I really wish that you would participate by simply stating your experiences and observations. I welcome anyone to post in any way they want, but if you can't admit that your tone is condescending, I doubt that you will ever be able to understand what I am requesting of you.

    Like I said, so far, I have very little doubt that ME is presenting a fairly accurate assessment of why she was forced to block you from her site. Please take a moment to consider the things that you have said on my site, and honestly examine whether or not they have a condescending tone. I would prefer that you try to avoid being vague and patronizing.

    ME, enjoy your holiday
    Blessed, have an excellent Thanksgiving.

  27. Blessed,

    I am really not sure how to say this any more plainly than I have already.

    NO. No, I don’t think that article reveals anything about your experience with Mary Kay. Did you link to the wrong article? You have sent me to that article twice now, so I don’t think it was the wrong one. But seriously, I asked you to provide your story. The only thing in that article (I have read it in its entirety twice now) that reveals something about your experience with Mary Kay was a brief reference to you helping your wife deliver pink bags and warm chatting.

    Here is the paragraph I am referring to.

    “I use to be the guy delivering MK product in little pink bags to people in and near my workplace. I commonly used MK lines on women and followed up by handing them my wife’s MK business card. Yes, I engaged in “warm chatter.” I can tell you now, with great certainty, had I known then what I know now about this seductive predator, I would have never supported my wife’s involvement in Mary Kay Cosmetics.”

    I mainly quoted it here to point out the second part, where you say, “I can tell you now, with great certainty, had I known then what I know now about this seductive predator, I would have never supported my wife’s involvement in Mary Kay Cosmetics”.

    Unless this is the wrong article and you have established this somewhere else, I have to ask (yet again), “to what “great certainty” are you referring?” Everything that I have read from you seems to presuppose certain grave injustices meted out by MK and suffered by countless millions. Yet I have not read one explanation of what these injustices are. Anecdotal or otherwise. Where is your evidence of what is happening to women everywhere? What was your experience? I am not saying that there is not evidence; I am not saying that you didn’t have a bad experience. I am simply asking that you provide the “why”. Why do you feel so strongly that MK is so devastating that women should run away?

    As to why I have not commented on that article here yet it is mainly because I have not had time to properly analyze and respond to everything contained there.

    Happy Thanksgiving

  28. MK4ME,

    (oops, I am a little ADD as well, thank you for letting us know it was you)

    I also like to step back and see things from both sides. I have often been told that I make a good mediator. I have even considered going to school to become a psychologist. Seems like it would be fun (Read: eye-opening and educational). I agree with your self-assessment of objectivity. You have proven (in my eyes) that you are capable of looking at things rationally and with the objective of helping all invested parties. It is not always fun to be that person is it? (I only say that because if you are as similar to me as you seem to be, you probably have had similar feelings of frustration when two opposing viewpoints absolutely refuse to see things from another light!)

    My experience with PT was similar to yours. I was shocked and appalled. I was concerned for the victims. I couldn’t believe that they were talking about the same Mary Kay my wife was in. I wanted to reach out to them. I tried to. I posted a letter of apology. It is now on this site if you haven’t already seen it. I really wanted to let them know that it was wrong that they were treated this way and asked for forgiveness on behalf of the ones that had hurt them. I am a strong believer that the only route to healing is through forgiveness. You don’t really hurt anyone but yourself when you try to hold something against someone.

    Anyway, as the story goes, my comment was deleted and I was banned from any part of the community.

    So I moved into a phase of disinterest. If they didn’t want my apology, there wasn’t much more I could do. I know they did not all reject me. But the owner of the blog made it impossible for me to do anything else. If they want to have their community to nurse their wounds, far be it from me to try to stop them. In fact, the aspects of community and support for each other are really commendable. So I let them be.

    But then I realized that because of the volume of content they have on that site, the fact that they go day after day, unchecked and uncorrected, they have begun to rank quite high in the search engines. I realized that there is a possibility that completely neutral individuals who stumble on their site looking for Mary Kay might actually believe that the things they are saying are ‘the truth’ as they claim them to be. To me, this is victimization that is as bad if not worse than what they are claiming to protect them from. I think it is possible that women that would have otherwise had a fulfilling and exciting career with Mary Kay could be turned away by the “gate-keepers”.

    I am not advocating that there be no warning. I think that it is good for there to be a place for people to see comparisons of other people’s experiences. I would like this site to be that place. I would even be ok with PT being that place IF PT presented a balanced and honest view.

    I like and agree with the idea of complaints being reported to the corporate office. I believe it is effective and could resolve a lot of complaints and answer a lot of questions.

    I really want people to tell their stories here. It seems that sometimes in the telling of a story, and receiving objective feedback and questions, you gain a clearer understanding of what happened and how you can avoid (or repeat) the results. Also, in the sharing of stories, you give others a more defined and accurate illustration of what they should or should not expect from their experience based on the experiences of those that have gone before. Similar to restaurant reviews on City Search. Some people love a place while others hate it. When you read WHY, you can get a feel of whether you will love or hate it. If the pros are about the taste and quality of the food and the cons are about the service and décor, than someone who values taste and quality will probably give it a try while someone who values service and décor may avoid it. I hope that the stories here (good and bad) will illustrate for others whether Mary Kay is right for them.

    It is because of examples like yours (Director who was terminated with no explanation later revealing that she was selling in retail settings and promoting this sort of activity to her team) that I have misgivings about the ‘truth’ that is purported to be distributed on that site.

    I think there is great wisdom in your assessment of what it takes to be a director. I believe that it is because of the frustration experienced when someone tries to jump to that level prematurely that some directors have resorted to some of the tactics we hear about on PT. It is hard for me to follow (and take seriously) some of the ex-directors on that site. It sounds to me like they are saying that they themselves were telling their consultants lies, hiding things from them, and generally misrepresenting MK. (To their credit they say this with a penitent attitude; I am not saying that they gloat about it.) It seems like they ascribe these acts to the way they were trained or what was modeled to them. While I am speculating here, it certainly makes me wonder what exactly made them feel that this was how they were supposed to operate.

    I have read some of the posts on PT that are from unit directors and NSD’s currently in MK. As I read them I was impressed with the fastidious way in which they promote maintaining ones ethics and values. In puzzlement (Why would a site so vehement about not allowing any pro-mk thoughts place such a well written demonstration of the right way to do MK?) I began reading the comments. They all said things like, “yeah right, there is no way that she actually expects her team to do these things”. It really makes me wonder what their directors actually told them when they were in MK. Did the phrase, “I always recommend that you determine what activity level you intend to pursue in your Mary Kay business and then, if appropriate for your personal circumstances, invest in a level of inventory that supports that activity.” turn into, “you NEED to place the highest possible investment, or everyone is going to think you are unsuccessful” in their minds?

    Thank you for your candor about yourself, what you did before MK, and how it is working for you now. I have done a lot of public speaking in my life and I still have to fight the “shakes” when I first get started and until I (as you say) get in the zone. Then my passion for the subject takes over and I turn into this confident passionate communicator. It is because of this that I understand and fully support the ‘fake it til you make it’ mentality. Every time I get in front of a crowd, I have to ‘fake it’ until that confidence kicks in. I know that it is there, but it really takes a good handful of minutes before I feel it! I am not sure that phrase was ever intended to mean you should pretend you are rich until you become rich or pretend you are successful until you are successful. There is a huge difference between putting yourself ‘out there’, again and again, until you fell comfortable being ‘out there’ and lying about your situation in life until the lie becomes a reality. This crosses into positive self talk, and all kinds of doctrines and theories that have been misused and abused to the point of ridiculousness. I should say, don’t get me started and leave it at that, but I think it is too late.

    You can’t for instance (positive self talk or fake it til you make it, your pick) take someone with no education and a low IQ, convince them to repeat over and over again, “I am a smart person, I am a smart person”, and expect them to become intelligent. You still have to teach them something. Learning has to take place. Now if you have a student that because of a low self-esteem is struggling to learn, and you slowly build up their confidence in their ability to learn, you can certainly expect to see results. In the same way, someone in Mary Kay should not repeat, “I am a rich woman that drives an expensive car” and expect it to just magically happen. However, if she repeats, “I am a friendly, caring individual that is more concerned about the needs of others than my own personal profit” (or something similar) and sets that before her as who she wants to be, chances are, she will find herself responding that way to situations she finds herself in.

    But I digress… these are all discussions for another time.

    Thank you for bringing your thoughts to the table. I hope that you remain hooked! A well spoken, considerate, balanced commentator such as yourself is like moisturizer on dry skin!

    I am not sure if you caught this wherever else I said it, but I am looking for other content writers. I would it if you ever feel the itch to respond to something you see (on PT, MK, ME, or anywhere else) please let me know. I think I will be setting up an email address soon that people can email me directly…. I should have done so a long time ago, but have not prioritized it. Your frank, honest and keen observations should be showcased as front page content, not hidden amongst pages of comments.

    That is an open invitation to anyone, but I wanted you to know that I would specifically appreciate your participation in this content building.

    Again, thank you and have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

  29. David, thank you (blusing). I never consider myself an eloquent writer. I just try to be "me". Sort of what you see, is what you get.

    As time allows, I will continue to comment and if things free up, if you ever feel anything is deserving of front page, I wouldn't object.


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First Post - Why I Started This Blog
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