Thursday, August 14, 2008

Pink Truth and Balanced Mary Kay Joining forces to expose Mary Kay?

That's right, you heard it hear first.

This post is, as Wikipedia is fond of saying, a "stub". A thought popped into my little head, and as things have been (relatively) quiet around here, I figured I would share.

You see, Pink Truth is not all that different from this site. Really.

Now if you think I am off my rocker, keep reading... this gets better.

The "ah ha" moment, the "one thing" that sparked this thought for me... came from.... none other than, wait for it...


"Raisinberry" (for those of you that do not follow Pink Truth, "raisinberry" is one of the more prolific commentators on that site)

That's right, "raisinberry" said something that made me realize that, almost unilaterally, the folks that post over there and the folks that post over here, fundamentally speaking, see eye to eye.

Think about it.

Most (if not all) here hate manipulation. Religious or otherwise, we can't stand it.

So do they.

Most (if not all) here hate false income claims. From cars to paychecks to commissions to "quit your job" lines, we hate to hear about it.

So do they.

Most (if not all) here hate pyramid schemes. Whether it is perpetuated in Mary Kay, or in "life outside of Mary Kay", we disapprove.

So do they.

I could go on.

Fundamentally speaking, the stuff they hate about Mary Kay, we hate.

The only "little detail" we disagree on is how widespread these problems are in Mary Kay. (They more, us less.)

So, in "healthy" negotiating style, I propose a 'set-aside'. We both agree to "set aside" the part we disagree about, and explore just how much we do agree about.

Having said all that, let me ask you to consider the following quote from "raisinberry". Yes, the one that lit the little light bulb in my little head. Those of you that have "issues" with "raisinberry", set them aside for a moment. Allow yourself to picture someone that came to the realization that she had been lied to, and was manipulated into lying to other women. Imagine how you would feel (or recall how you have felt in a similar situation), remove the "Mary Kay" factor from this completely, and just picture this purely in terms of someone that got scammed.... bad.

"That means, all those women whose faces we looked into and believed were either masterfully duped themselves or fully aware predators. That is the scariest thing of all...listening to, modeling your behavior, repeating the words that work from, and otherwise obeying a voice in complete denial...or one that is frankly a sociopath. Who can watch the financial life blood drain out of her directors year after years after year and not give a rats rear? Who can say, "no, next!" being a party to phony words that manipulate women into coughing up another round of wholesale?"

Do we not all agree that, assuming there is a real person that embodies the evil she speaks of here, a person who would do this to another person is someone who (at best) should be avoided?

Really, our mission is the same. We do not want people to be victims. We want to stop the culprits.

Do you think this is possible? Is there hope that we could "meet in the middle" and actually do some good? What are your thoughts about this?


  1. David, I think you are on the right track!

  2. I do think that you make some very valid points in this post. As I have said several times my experience with MK was not good. I was a PT member until I realized how inappropriate the behavior of the members was there and then I got booted for saying so. From there I hopped around a bit looking at other MK related sites. This was the one that was most in line with what my views were and are. You pointed out in the post the things that we all agree on as being points of corruption or flaws in the MK system. There is a HUGE difference between PT and this site however and that is the role of personal responsibility. During my time on PT I quickly learned that nothing was every the fault of the PT member. It was always the upline's fault. For example if a PT member admits to frontloading people it is because they learned it or were told to do it by their upline. The other aspect of this site that differs from PT is the level of respect that I see on this site. All positions are respected here and I absolutely think that makes this site different from PT. Considering I am now blocked from even seeing the public portion of PT because I openly disagree with TC and she can not handle that but you all welcome me despite the fact that I am not pro-mk says a lot.
    So, yes there are similarities but there are also very important differences.

  3. Thanks guys.


    I feel like I say the following two things a lot around here.

    1. I am not sure if I have officially "welcomed" you here. If not, Welcome!

    2. Would you like to be an author for this blog?

    I am serious on both counts. I read every single comment that comes through here. Often (and this is very unfortunate), if I don't have time to respond immediately, the "thought" goes away and is, as they say, lost in cyberspace forever. :( Because I read every comment, I have seen everything that you have said and I like the way you think. I would greatly appreciate you considering contributing, from time to time or regularly.

    If you are interested, send me an email at -

    O1, that goes for you too.

  4. speaking the real truthAugust 15, 2008 at 6:40 AM

    David, I think that you have lost your mind.

    First, you imply that rather than some changes that need to be made, that Mary Kay needs to be "exposed". I completely disagree. The group on the other site is bent on total destruction of Mary Kay, not on fixing the few problems in an otherwise great company and opportunity. I think that is a huge divide.

    Next, there are the tactics. Here, even though some of us are very passionate about our businesses, we are able to empathize with ones who may not have had a great MK experience, for whatever reason. It does not work that way "over there". We are also willing to admit that Mary Kay isn't perfect (what is?) and are not so radical in our claims, our presentation, or our posts.

    Also, I am not here to feed on anyone, or to victimize anyone. I think that the other site does exactly that. Face it, you have 1 person in complete control over there, and I suspect that she uses posters and their stories to further her causes, AND to make money. It is not in every persons best interest to quit Mary Kay, far from it, but that site would promote that all should quit, quit now, and return your products!

    Finally, under the guise of the "truth" over there, you've seen the total lack of truth, the robbing of websites, the pursuit of Mary Kay women who are just minding their own business. We all know that they have a source that provides them with material that they should not have. So, for me, credibility and ethics are at issue. I don't find that I question that in any of the posters here, even Deleted, who drives me bonkers, but who truly seems to believe what he is saying.

  5. Speaking,

    You make some excellent points.

    First, regarding "Mary Kay" being exposed and Pink Truth's passion for total destruction, I would like to point out that if you remove the extremes from the equation, we are not all that different.

    What do I mean?

    We both want any wrongdoing that is hiding in the shadows to be exposed. Some of them think that Mary Kay itself is hiding in the shadows, while we believe that it is limited to a relatively small portion.

    I am not suggesting that all of Mary Kay needs to be exposed and certainly not suggesting that "total destruction" is in any way appropriate.

    Next, the tactics.

    I believe that this is one of our tactics. Hearing the other side. I believe that there are very few women over there (ha! imagine if I ended the sentence there!!!), that truly believe that the best thing would be for Mary Kay to disappear. I think most of them simply don't want what happened to them to happen to anyone else. So much so that they will go along with any idea, so long as it has the possibility of accomplishing that goal.

    Regarding the victimization and total control you mention, I suggest that some (or possibly many) of the posters on that site were "taken in" by a charismatic, enthusiastic, passionate person "selling" a dream. When they realized they had been duped, they chose another charismatic, enthusiastic, passionate person "selling" a dream to follow. They have "swapped" their director/nsd for Tracy. I suspect that many of them don't actually believe that no one should get involved in Mary Kay anymore than they actually believed that Mary Kay was God's gift to all women. I think that (if we could get them away from the negative influence) most of them are very intelligent and have a lot to offer to the solution of the problem(s).

    Naturally, credibility and ethics will always be important to me. I am not suggesting we sacrifice those in order to reach a compromise. What I am suggesting is that if both sides will look at what we do agree on, there is a good chance that we can "get to the bottom of" what we don't agree on.

    I am willing to make the first move.

  6. MK is already headed in the right direction they terminated 900 consultants/directors for whatever legal reason that were liabilities to the company. There is TALK of them going back (who the old way of earning the car and then going to directorship, they may wait on that a few months to get more car winners and or directors in. They are doing MUCH more advertising in the media. The ONLY thing they have not done (which is small) is going back to making those star consultant prizes better. Ladies I know MK is not perfect but they are listening to people, they have to get a majority vote before they can just get rid of someone and do investigations. By the way I see nothing with the new blue director suits. I think the brown suit that they were poo pooing on that other site is beautiful!

  7. David,
    When I read your reply to speaking's post it occurred to me that there are likely a lot of self-esteem issues involved in all of this. You summed up the situation perfectly when you said that a lot of the women went from the charasmatic leaders in MK to TC. It is so common when a person doesnt' feel good about themselves to start seeking something else to define themselves by. On a similar note it is also common in the addiction pattern. It isnt' uncommon to see addicts switch from one addiction to another to another until they deal with their real issues. (side note: not saying that every person in MK or on PT has issues or is an addict by any means just saying that for some of these women it is an interesting comparison) My guess is that some of these PT members were really really enthusiastic about their MK businesses and now they are super enthusiastic about PT. It forms an identity. As a result I find it ironic that their goals is to destroy the MK company. If they managed to actually take down MK then they would all have to find another identity/life focus. Hmmm....thats an interesting thought.

  8. David,

    I believe you may be heading in a positive direction.


    I’m thankful I’ve never been raped or sexually assaulted and had to undergo the brutal humiliation experienced by some victims during a trial. Have you ever read of a rape victim being questioned about whether her clothing was too provocative? The victim can be slapped across the face with many similar questions: Why was she flirting with him in the bar if she really didn’t want it? Isn’t she one of those women who mislead men? Aren’t some women drawn toward men who won’t take no for an answer? Shouldn’t we take a close look at her sexual history? Wasn’t she the type to move from one abusive relationship to another? Why did she go up to his apartment?

    Isn’t it true she must be to blame to some extent because, after all, if she hadn’t placed herself in such a vulnerable situation, there’d never have been a crime? ….right?
    Is there anything valuable to be gained by scapegoating the victims of the MK MLM?

  9. Blessed,

    Although I will allow p4c to answer your question to her (if indeed there is an answerable question in there), but I wanted to point something out in regards to your comment about rape victims.

    You said:

    "Have you ever read of a rape victim being questioned about whether her clothing was too provocative? The victim can be slapped across the face with many similar questions: Why was she flirting with him in the bar if she really didn’t want it? Isn’t she one of those women who mislead men? Aren’t some women drawn toward men who won’t take no for an answer? Shouldn’t we take a close look at her sexual history? Wasn’t she the type to move from one abusive relationship to another? Why did she go up to his apartment?"

    While I am not suggesting that this process is pleasant (for anyone involved), would you not agree that it is necessary?

    Is it logical to simply assume that if a woman says she was raped, she was?

    The answer is no.

    Just like any other crime, there needs to be proof that a crime occurred. Questions need to be asked.

    If a woman goes to a bar, flirts with a man, invites him back to her apartment for drinks, has sex with him, and then, the next morning, claims, "he raped me", I would hope (for the guys sake) that his attorney is pretty good at asking these kinds of questions.

    In both cases, there are significant differences between victims and willing participants.

    The two need to be kept separate and dealt with differently. Sometimes, this means asking the hard questions and getting honest answers.

    On that note, you still haven't told us about your experience with Mary Kay.

    Do you consider yourself a victim?

    If so, why? (At this point I think I am asking rhetorically, because I really have no hope that you will actually answer, but it is worth trying, right?)

  10. Blessed,
    I am going to answer your post while trying to work with your presentation of an issue that is extremely sensitive to many women and even many men. There are a few things that I want to say and I'm trying to put them in the most diplomatic way possible.
    I guess primarily what is running through my head is that I feel that sex crimes are extremely traumatic and are probably the most difficult to recover from. I have been pretty transparent about my own life here on this site and I'm going to continue that with what I am going to say next. I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse/incest. I also had a very bad experience with MK. So, blessed, you just threw the ball into my court. When I think of those two events just within the context of my life there is absolutely no comparison between the two. In fact, to even begin to say that losing money or being snubbed by other women or even being looked down on or whatever the complaint of the day is against MK is equivalent to being raped is offensive. You are comparing apples to oranges. And, there is a very clear difference in the fact that you sign up to be a part of MK, you read a contract and sign it, and you are free to send back your product or just leave at any time. A woman who is being raped did not choose it and she is not free to walk away from it. I do not deny that there is peer pressure involved in MK. I do not deny that there is pressure from the uplines to order and get further in debt but mk is not the military and women can make their own choices.
    The other thought that came up as a result of your post is that PT is encouraging a lack of healing wheras many rape sites encourage healing. I see a lot of victims at PT. At rape recovery sites I see a lot of Survivors. There is a huge difference.

  11. Dave,

    You may again review a piece I wrote which is published on at:

    As for the “I story” telling more of what I, my wife and family went through while living the MK MLM “dream,” well you’re gonna have to wait a bit longer. It’s so nice to know I can count on at least one interested reader of this yet unpublished article. The good news, though, is I’ve had scores of folks read the above linked article and tell me they understand (through the information provided in the article and extrapolation) what we went through. And yes, ours was just one of many families victimized by the MK MLM.

    Regarding your comment about a rape victim’s sexual history, I believe it is inappropriate to additionally punish the victim in this way. In such a scenario, the issue at hand should be whether there was intercourse and whether it was consensual. Be assured I won’t be attempting to file any legal brief arguing the sexual histories of rape victims should be open to scrutiny.

    What I am saying, and I believe you know this, is too often victims of the MK MLM experience a similar “attack the victim” tactic launched by shills for the “dream.”

    You're not a shill for the Mary Kay Cosmetics "opportunity" are ya Dave?

    Blessed (Deleted)

  12. Praying4courage,

    First and last, you and anyone who has been victimized by rape or sexual assault have my sympathy, empathy and you are in my prayers. You’re so right. Few things compare to being raped or sexually assaulted. Although the depth of the offenses do not compare, I believe there is a similarity in the way victims of sexual assault are blamed and the way MK MLM victims are blamed for their situation; thus my comparison. Please accept my sincere apology for any painful memories my analogy may have stirred. Being a survivor of both a sexual assault and the MK MLM gives you license and credibility I don’t have.

    Again, you are in my prayers.


  13. Thank you, Blessed, I appreciate your reply.

    I do understand what you are saying about people who quit MLM's being blamed for their lack of success. I also think that they blame themselves a lot. I know that in my case I ended up at PT because my self-esteem was so low due to other issues that failing at MK was just kind of crushing. PT drew me in and told me it was okay and that I was the victim etc. In my opinion they played on my insecurities. As soon as I gained enough self-esteem to talk back to TC and question things I was booted.

    Oh and just in case anyone cares TC has also figured out the IP address of my mom's computer (because I used it to look at PT's homepage since my laptop is banned) and has banned that IP address from being able to see even the public parts now too.

  14. Blessed,

    You are mixing two concepts together that should not be mixed.

    The first is necessary.

    Discovering whether or not the woman is a victim.

    If it was consensual, the answer is no.

    If it was not consensual, the answer is yes.

    How to determine which one it is/was is the tricky part. Questions must be asked.

    The second is completely unnecessary.

    Deciding whether the woman was to blame.

    If she is a victim, she is a victim. Regardless of her behavior, dress, history, etc, no one (man or woman) has the right to force themselves on another (man or woman). Period.

    You said:

    "What I am saying, and I believe you know this, is too often victims of the MK MLM experience a similar “attack the victim” tactic launched by shills for the “dream.”"

    Since you generally refuse to mention specifics, I really can't comment on this very much.

    I will say that you seem to make the same confusion here that you did above. When someone in Mary Kay asks someone who says that Mary Kay sucks, "Well, how many hours did you work? What techniques did you try? Did you...? What about...?" they often are just trying to determine whether this person was a victim, or things just didn't work out.

    It is usually the "anti-mk" peeps that say, "you are calling me a lazy loser". When in reality, the line of questions carries more of the "if you don't want to do the work, don't expect the results" intent. By the way, there is a difference.

  15. Praying 4courage,

    In your last note you mentioned …

    “PT is encouraging a lack of healing wheras many rape sites encourage healing. I see a lot of victims at PT. At rape recovery sites I see a lot of Survivors. There is a huge difference.”

    I have to beg to differ. During our recovery from the MK MLM “dream,” posting on was cathartic. What’s more, I can’t tell you how wonderful it was to find there were so many, many others out there who’d been stung by the bee; I wasn’t alone. I wasn’t insane. For the longest time I thought I was (we were) simply stupid. We certainly made out mistakes, many of them and we own responsibility for allowing ourselves to become so vulnerable. We are survivors of the MK MLM experience. Interestingly, it was, home of the MK MLM Survivor, which was my first source of information re the MK MLM. I believe is a wonderful source for information re the MK MLM and a great place for catharsis.

    Again, I hope you can please accept my apology for stirring any painful memories from your assault.


  16. Blessed,
    I want to reply to you again because I think you might be right and that I may not have given enough thought to the victim/survivor comment that I made. What I did was generalize too much and thats never really a good thing. I should know that from all the sociology classes I've taken (hehe or slept through!). You are right that for some PT is a step in the healing process. Actually it was for me as well. PT did serve a purpose in my movement away from MK and I'm not sure I would have been able to send back my inventory without the information I found there. But it was just a step and it was one I couldnt' stay in too long. I think what would have been more accurate for me to say rather than that PT makes victims instead of survivors would be to say that there is a danger of falling into the victim mode if someone stays in that mindset too long. I see it sort of like when I was a nurse's aide and I worked with post-orthopedic surgery patients. It is okay to spend a while laying in bed in pain (we'll call this victim phase) but if the joint is ever going to return to normal and feel right again then it is necessary to get up and walk on it and eventually leave the hospital (survivor phase). PT does serve a purpose in my opinion for those who are still needing to be upset about their losses in MK. But when I see people on there who have been out for 10 years I start to wonder what is keeping them stuck.

  17. Praying4courage,

    I like your analogy. The information about the MK MLM on PT and other places serves not only those in MK crisis, it also, I believe, helps many learn to avoid the entire mess in the first place (thank you Google). I believe (anecdotally) the vast majority who sign up for the MK MLM exit the experience less whole (financial loss, damage to relationships, self esteem, etc,). Warning women before such loss is suffered is a valuable component of PT (and this site) as is helping victimized women during transition from the fog to survivor status.

    There’s another part. It’s playing an ongoing role in helping others. This, I believe, is why many continue to contribute to information outlets about the MK MLM long after they’re out. Because of my limited ability to illustrate it otherwise, I’ll call it a “12th step.” Now, contrary to what some may say, I believe participation in the MK MLM is not an addiction, not anywhere close. It may be at times compulsive, but nothing approaching addiction. Nonetheless, I believe there may be some of the same fulfillment from warning others about the MK MLM as that experienced by someone in recovery who is working the 12th step. The 12th step in the addiction recovery process (support groups) refers to carrying the message to others. Simply doing so is, in itself, fulfilling. There’s a good feeling that naturally comes from helping others avoid pain. This, I believe, may be a large reason MK MLM survivors continue to occasionally contribute to information outlets about the “opportunity” following their exit from the “dream.”

    People change. Strongly held belief systems can be remolded, evolve. Sometimes the only two requirements are time and information. Consider Dave. My limited perspective suggests he may be evolving. He is by no means a pickle yet, but he is not today (I believe) the cucumber he was when his wife first signed the dotted line. Who would have thought he’d one day publish an article on his blog promoting recognition of shared concepts of women’s advocacy common to this blog and PT.


  18. Pickle? Cucumber? I can't help but to chuckle...

  19. Personally I don't think that there is anything wrong with MK. I don't know why people just can't take personal responsibility. If you are letting people talk you into things is that the other persons fault NO it is yours. Learn to say NO. I think that MK is a good business for some and for others it is not. The key here is it is business.

    Joining forces to expose MK...David do you honestly think that this blog and that one even line up. I don't think that MK is broke...I will ask again Why can't people take responsibility for their actions? We have become a Nation of blaming everyone for our problems except for the person where the problem exist. You know if you want to join forces with them that would be ok if you would be allowed to post over there if you are in MK and still like it. The only thing that tc wants to do is tear MK down she doesn't care about the people that it does support and their families. I have been reading these blogs for a long time and I can tell you from what I have witness tc is a mean women. She is a little off that she would stalk some women that like MK and out them.

    I think that the people on pt have just changed it for MK. They have a leader and that would be tc and she will not allow anything but bad about MK over there and if someone goes against her she kicks them off. I know this too from personal experience I have posted and my post last maybe 2 minutes at the most and then like magic they were gone.

    David...What do you want exposed??


  20. Blessed, didn't you need to apologize before for comparing a rape victim to an Mk victim? Before you make a comparison that really shouldn't be made, perhaps you should think about those you are offending. We should learn from our mistakes and not make them again. I am grateful I can't begin to experience the pain a rape survivor must experience, but it upsets me plenty to see you make this comparison. - please for respect of all readers, don't do it again.

    Rape is a act of violence - it is perpetrated against a persons will. In Mk - people willing enter into a contract and sign a legal document. If those believe everything and don't get themselves educated on how business should work - that is on them. I guess one could be classified as a victim of ignorance but not of your "MK MLM".

    praying4courage, may I applaud you for your very civil response. I just can't be as diplomatic as you on this.

  21. I don't see the two sites with the same mission. Here we want to give examples of how to do things right and how to make things work without manipulating the system or people. We want to find ways to improve a situation if there is room for improvement.

    PT - could take this same approach - warning people of the mistakes they made so that others could proceed and NOT repeat the same mistakes. They don't use this approach - it is destoy because we didn't have a good experience. Revenge. Making fun of next years prototype of next year's directors suit is not helpful, making fun of outfits at seminar, etc... aren't helping anyone heal.

    Actually, I think some of them spend more time researching stuff on MK now than they did when they were in MK. And now they have no chance of getting paid for it.

    This is just my opinion but if they already had such a bad experience with MK and it already has cost them so much, why give MK another minute of your time. Just doesn't make sense to me. (after an initial "healing") - from the outside looking in, they still just need to "belong".
    Many probably were not the "cheerleaders" in high school, they were in the band and are still just trying to fit in.

  22. And that's maybe the biggest problem with women in MK - They don't understand how MK victimizes people, takes advantage of their weaknesses, destroys them financially, and leaves them less whole than before. As long as they pretend MK is good, they're not responsible for destroying people's lives.

  23. Beth said...
    And that's maybe the biggest problem with women in MK - They don't understand how MK victimizes people, takes advantage of their weaknesses, destroys them financially, and leaves them less whole than before. As long as they pretend MK is good, they're not responsible for destroying people's lives.

    I don't know if anyone has heard there is this word it is not new it has been around for a along time it is "NO". If you are getting into financial trouble with your MK that is not the fault of anyone but you. You don't have to place that order. I am not in debt because of my MK if I don't have the money to order guess what I don't. Can people not read. If you sign up with MK you should read what the contract says. Why on earth would one just go blindly into something without checking it out.

    Again I will ask "WHERE IS THE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY?" If you get caught up in the hype or whatever is that the fault of anyone? Those on pt are caught in hype not to help women there are there to try and bring down a company. Most are mean spirited and they are unethical they were this way in MK and they are this way in pt.

    Here is the thing MK is a business and if you are a Consultant you are now a business owner. I can tell you that I own another business also. I have to work it as a business. In my hair salon I don't order things that I don't need and yes I have to order it for a distributor and then I resale it. If I don't need it guess what it doesn't matter if they are giving away something else if I order this or that if I don't need it I DON'T ORDER IT. It comes again to personal responsiibilty.

    Let me say this if you think for one minute that people only lie in MK think again. There are unethical people everywhere not just in MK.

    I think that if the women on pt would have spent as much time as they do downing MK working their MK business when they were in it they would have probably been successful. This is just my opinion and I just get sick and tired of hearing she made me order this or that. No one can make you do anything that you are not willing to do. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. That is where it lies.

    And now about using rape and MK together. When people are raped they really didn't have a choice that was taken from them. In MK you have a choice no one takes your money from you and makes you push that botton. Rape should not have been used that I think was pretty mean you don't know how many people on this or any other blog have been raped and you don't know what they could have done to them to bring that up. I think that was pretty mean and shouldn't have been done. Blessed you claim to be a Christian man well that was not something that I would think a Christian man would have done.
    Hope everyone has a GREAT DAY

  24. speaking the real truthAugust 16, 2008 at 7:49 AM

    Rape and Mary Kay are not even in the same ball park. Get real Blessed, we've been down this road before.

    See David, with extremists who want to put Mary Kay on the level of rape, how could you possibly think that we could join together to correct the few problems that Mary Kay has? This is the problem, the extremists do not want to fix anything! Many on that site have never even been a consultant! They do not even have a dog in the race.

    As usual, I agree with most everything MK4ME said.

    I really hate that the topic has digressed with another ridiculous comparison from Blessed/Deleted. And to think, I even sort of complemented early in the post. But, then again, this is one of the things that Blessed does best~run us off on tangents.

    David, early on when these blogs started, there were many within Mary Kay who tried to have rational discussions with the anti-Mary Kay groups and some of the leaders of those blogs. You should do some research on that. I saw anyone who defended Mary Kay ripped to shreds, even on so called "balanced" blogs. If the "other site" wanted to engage in discussion, they would open their site up to all of us and allow all comments (of course unless they were profane, etc.) I remember when I read my first of these blogs, I though, "well they just do not understand". Later I realized that they have no desire to understand anything other than their viewpoint. All the while, there are plenty of us on sites like this who acknowledge that Mary Kay or anything else is perfect.

    David, you are right that many are just joining in the lynch mob over there, and that is encouraged. Many of those people have wound up hurt all over again through these blogs, and that is unfortunate.

    I am happy to talk with anyone who had a negative Mary Kay experience, if they are willing to be honest and respectful. Mary Kay is not perfect and it is not for everyone. I would even be happy to counsel someone who is in a negative Mary Kay situation about what best to do about it, ie; who to contact at corporate, if this is really the best choice for them, have they been misled somewhere, or are there things that they need to change. I do not care anything about working with the leadership of "that site". If you want to go there, you are on your own, but from what I have read elsewhere, I would recommend that you go in with full armor on and would suggest that you not extend any amount of trust.

    What I would suggest is that those who are having difficulty with their business, come on over here and tell us about it. We will help you sort it out and the only answer will not be to just "quit". Quitting may be the answer for some, but most just need help and guidance to turn this into a good business for they and their families.

  25. I have also offered in the past to answer any questions perhaps David may not be able to as far as being a director, I even set up a different email account if someone would like to contact me privately - I just can't promise the response will always be timely-
    When I first sawy this post, I had a knee jerk reaction to the title- and them read the first few comments and thought, I guess I can see what David attempting to point out. I have returned to my initial opinion- it is not worded right.

    We are at BMK are trying to expose poor behavior of some individuals involved in Mary Kay. PT is trying to destroy MK - big difference.

    We on occassion read about "dirty cops" or "cops on the take" - they are found out and terminated from the force and charge legally if it is criminal.
    I don't see destroy the police department websites.

    Same diff - bad people involved in a good but not perfect system.

  26. Objections about a comparison of the actual assaults experienced by rape victims and MK MLM victims are warranted. Again, I believe there is no comparison in the depth and seriousness of injury. Again, I apologize to any soul out there who has been a victim of sexual assault who may have taken offense or otherwise experienced discomfort because of unpleasant memories my analogy stirred. I’m sorry. Now then, I believe my apology for any unintended offensiveness or misunderstanding has been inclusive. I will regard any further suggestion I am equating the severity of rape victimization with MK MLM victimization as too close to histrionics to warrant any additional response.

    To the extent my analogy captures the similarities between the way some victims of assault and some victims of the MK MLM are inappropriately blamed for their victimization, I make no apology. This was my intent.


    I want to acknowledge your comment about your belief my ethics are sound, regardless of how wrong I may be about the MK MLM opportunity. Thank you. Also, you captured my sentiments correctly; I DO believe the best solution for the MK MLM problem is for those involved to get out now or never get in at all.

    Please know I have no objections to MK products. In fact, as I understand it, the products are regarded in most circles as being pretty good (perhaps a bit overpriced). In short, I cannot comment with any significant validity about the quality of the products. I mention this to draw a contrast between the “products” and the “opportunity.” My objections surround the sale and promotion of the “opportunity.”

    Perhaps one day Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporation will decide there is a market for their products which can support a distribution system which doesn’t victimize women by design as (I believe) their current MLM sales model does. I am particularly offended by the haughty MK MLM claim that they “enrich women’s lives.” This phrase I find particularly disgusting because, at the end of the day, we are left with nothing but conjecture and anecdotes. Ya see, if the MK MLM would adopt the business opportunity rules (or something close to them) suggested by the Federal Trade Commission, women would know just how many lives are “enriched” as opposed to how many women are churned like so much cannon fodder. Although I don’t know the actual numbers (and I believe nobody outside MKC does) I do know one thing for sure: TOO MANY women are victimized by the MK MLM.

    Wouldn’t it be nice to see MKC blow us “Negative Nellies” out of the water with a release of objective numbers revealing the churn rate in the MK MLM? Isn’t their inaction re such a release of information sort of an indictment? Isn’t that what would be best for all concerned, honesty, professionalism, integrity? You yourself have written a piece lending credence to this sentiment. Not too long ago you wrote a piece about (if I recall correctly) the need to stop the insanity re warm chatting in Target. Great stuff! Doesn’t it bother you that MKC doesn’t respond to objections about their MLM by simply saying, “Oh that’s wrong, we do offer a wonderful opportunity; here are our annual numbers, etc.”? If I were in your position one call I’d consider making would be to MKC saying, “Hey, do us a favor will ya, clear this thing up; release a few spreadsheets, will ya”? My guess is this could reduce successful promotion of the “opportunity” too much for such a release of information to be fiscally feasible.

    Isn’t that what the entire discussion is about, the victimization of women? It’s not (I suggest) about the operator of this or another blog. It’s about the continued swindling of women through a polished confidence scam.


    Good afternoon. There are wonderful people both in and out of Mary Kay Cosmetics. Wouldn’t it be nice if the MK MLM problem could be chalked up to merely poor behavior by a number of “bad” IBCs and Directors? Boy oh boy!!! All that’d be necessary then would be to round’em up and move‘em out! The truth is, I believe, the problem is largely institutional, rather than individual. Ya see, at some point you’ve got to stop pulling the dead bodies out of the river and run up stream to address why the dead bodies are going into the river in the first place.

    So then, the more I think about it, the more I like the premise of the instant article. What are the common themes, areas of agreement, promoted by those on both sides of the “opportunity” issue?

    Blessed (Deleted)

  27. B,

    you conclude:

    "So then, the more I think about it, the more I like the premise of the instant article. What are the common themes, areas of agreement, promoted by those on both sides of the “opportunity” issue?"

    Then why would you post this long, divisive comment that only serves to reinforce your position and opinion that you know is not an area of agreement or common theme?

  28. "And that's maybe the biggest problem with women in MK - They don't understand how MK victimizes people, takes advantage of their weaknesses, destroys them financially, and leaves them less whole than before. As long as they pretend MK is good, they're not responsible for destroying people's lives"

    As you read this reply keep in mind that it is coming from someone who did lose a large amount of money from my MK venture and sent back my inventory.
    To this day I feel like my recruiter did take advantage of my weaknesses. I was a college freshmen and I was having trouble fitting in because I had taken time off before starting college and the age thing was an issue in my social life there. My recruiter (a senior at the college) kind of swooped in and made me feel like she was my new best friend and that we would have sooo much fun being MK friends. To make a long story short it didn't work out that way. She was planning to move to a different state long before she recruited me and it just wasn't what I thought it was and I didnt' know how to run a business and I lost a lot of money still battling that.
    BUT--- am I a victim, less than a whole person, is my life destroyed? NO!!!! I'm not those things because I CHOOSE not to be those things. No one can destroy your life of make you less than whole without your permission. There are very few things in life that we totally control but one of them is how we react to our situation. People go through things that are horrible life changing events and they come out the other end as productive and happy people. I have a friend who as a teenager was involved in an accident where he and some friends ended up in a high water situation and he was the only one who made it out alive. When he talks about it he gets emotional but he doesn't let it dictate the rest of his life. He went onto college and graduate school and he is now a researcher. He grieved and he moved on. When I hear you say that lives are devistated and people are made less than whole by a makeup company I just think there is a time for mourning a loss of friends and opportunity in your life but there is also a time to move on and not let your entire life be affected.

  29. Dave,

    Good question.

    I suppose I’m simply apt to fall into my own spiel because I’m so passionate about it.

    Some things both camps have in common, I believe may be the following:

    -Passion about our beliefs
    -A desire to see victimization of women end (at least I hope many in MK want to see this)
    -Embarrassment over the tactics used to manipulate in the MK MLM (many MK survivors used these tactics at one time too)
    -Recognition of the value of personal faith
    -Recognition of the value of social circles
    -Endorsement, generally, of the value of the MK product (many MK opportunity survivors still use the products)

    I hope others can add to this list.

    Blessed (Deleted)

  30. I am totally amazed at how speaking the right truth and mk4me even take the time out of their BUSY days to even help and contribute to this blog. I used to think these two are not directors they are just pretending and being nice...LOL We are blessed (no pun intended blessed aka deleted) to even have them here on this blog/forum. If I were a director and happy with the career I dont even know if I would take the time to address some of these issues. Knowing me I would Im a softee that way. If anyone is lurking rest assured that these two are directors and that they speak the truth and that if you give it a sincere effort 6 months to a year even if its one class a week you can make minimum in MK an extra 50-75.00 a week minimum and I would bet more than that after reorders at one class a week if you dont do any recruiting.

  31. Blessed,

    That's more like it. I also hope that others will add to the list.

    Thank you.


    In the interest of holding all to the same standard, I need to ask, "How do you know they are both directors?"

    If you know because you have met with them personally and/or exchanged emails with them in which they "proved" they were directors, that's one thing. However, I would guess that if that is the case, they would not want you "proving" it to everyone here as that would be a little to personally revealing (most likely).

    If, on the other hand, you are going based on nothing more than you have read here (as I do), than you can not possible know that they really are directors.

    I try not to show partiality in my demand for people not to make definitive statements that can not be legitimately backed up in the same forum they are made.

    I, like you, have every reason to believe that these two are indeed "real live" Mary Kay directors. However, there is no need to make such a declarative statement about them. Simply put, please use caution when such assertions. Thanks.

  32. David, I can not speak for STRT but I can say for myself, I am a real director, and with the info you have on me, I am sure you can attest to the "fact" that I am a director.

    If I want people to take anything I say seriously, I think it best that it is known I speak from experience, not my *ss. So David, would you please attest to the fact that I am a director?

  33. mk4me,

    I think that your posts speak for themselves.

    I truly believe that anyone that reads here can tell that you are a director. The insights that you share really can't be forged or faked.

    That being said, my only point to Colleen was/is that the manner in which she pointed this out goes against the "burden of evidence" that I require from people.

    Apparently this is confusing to some... and I really don't want to make a big thing about it. I know you are a director. It seems that Colleen knows that you are a director. I have no doubt that most people reading this blog can easily discern that you are a director.

    However, if someone is going to go out of their way (as I feel that Colleen did) to assure everyone of something being an undeniable "fact", there needs to be proof. And I really don't want anyone to "prove" publicly that you are a director.

    To everyone reading this:

    I (David Shepherd) know that "mk4me" is a director. I know this. You can either believe me or not.


    am i making sense or just rambling?

  34. speaking the real truthAugust 16, 2008 at 6:22 PM

    Colleen, thank you for your kind words, and I will answer that no, Colleen, nor anyone else here really knows for sure who I am, or what my position is with Mary Kay, you only have my words and the knowledge that I present as any type of proof. Nor will I be proving anything to anyone any more than any other bloggers will be submitting copies of their birth certificates, photo ID, etc.

    Colleen is however on to something. My busy life and dedication to my family and business are why I disappear for periods of time, and why I have not agreed to be an author. I feel that I could not do it justice, and at times would not have the opportunity to defend my articles properly, etc. Being an all or nothing personality, I am trying to not put myself into a position to take away from other things that I value greatly by getting consumed with debate. I often refrain from commenting on certain topics as they are not pressing to me, but when something that I have strong feelings about comes up, I chime in as I can, sometimes more often than others.

    One thing that I think would make a good article and for good discussion would be the fact that I believe in order to be a good sales director, you must be self motivating. Every director needs to be a good consultant, but then she also must be able to transition herself and motivate herself, manage her time, and be able to teach and transfer the skills that make her personally successful.

    Welcome to P4C! You are the type of ex-Mary Kay person who I would love to talk with. Your avoidance of drama, name calling, and theatrics makes you more credible than the extremists, and I think you can serve to do good for those still in Mary Kay and those who are no longer with the company, so thank you for your time and your willingness to look at the situation with some objectivity.

  35. speaking the real truthAugust 16, 2008 at 6:27 PM

    BTW, that does bring up the fact that many anti-Mary Kay people want proof of our situations, but provide no proof of their own. I am not talking about reiterating your tax info. for everyone, proof would be to import it directly onto the site as a photo.

    I do think that if one makes claims about their income in recruiting situations, they should be prepared to back it up. I can back up my highest check and could get a statement from my accountant as to my average annual expenses. However, I've not run into that situation, as I usually talk about averages for the company as a whole and explain that her earnings will be commensurate with her efforts. I make few, if any, promises to anyone about the opportunity, because each situation is different. If I promise someone something, it would be that she has the buyback, or that I would help her build her business, etc., not that she would earn a certain amount of money.

  36. That statement was meant as a compliment to speaking the real truth and MK4me. I was in NO way asking them to prove themselves! I want to thank you all for understanding. What I meant was that they really dont have anything to prove and that because they DO take the time to help on this blog and have people see both sides and what MK is really about (depending on what you as an individual make of it) it made me wonder (in the beginning) were they really directors the FIRST time they came on. I mean one week of postings in the beginning. David had to be fair and address me the way he would anyone else and I understand that. After the one week of postings (months ago)
    there was no doubt in my mind they were directors. I was just wondering after doing skin care classes, and newsletters, and meetings and anything else like unit meetings how they would even have time to look all of these comments over. It goes to show you some (more than we think) directors really do care and want to uphold the standards that Mary Kay Ash wanted to hand down to future generations. Thanks ladies for doing that.

  37. "Welcome to P4C! You are the type of ex-Mary Kay person who I would love to talk with. Your avoidance of drama, name calling, and theatrics makes you more credible than the extremists, and I think you can serve to do good for those still in Mary Kay and those who are no longer with the company, so thank you for your time and your willingness to look at the situation with some objectivity."

    Thanks STRT! One of the things I've learned through a variety of situations is that as soon as you put someone on the defensive the conversation is essentially over because it is likely that the person will shut down. Unfortunately thats what I see happen a lot on a couple of the anti-mk websites. MK consultants will go there and they are put on the defensive and the conversation goes downhill from there. Or "hate mail" will appear on those sites and then the anti-mk people get defensive and it just increases the hatred towards MK when I am somewhat suspicious that some of the hate mail might be fabricated. Too much of it sounds exactly the same and has exactly the same grammatical errors. As far as I recall they didn't remove my brain and grammer skills when I joined MK and give them back when I sent back my product :-P Thats a sidebar though.

    Sometimes I try to figure out why I am stil hanging around MK websites and I think it is partially becasue I want people to understand that its okay to be okay with not being a mk success story. Over in PT land there are a lot of women who really believe that their lives are over because of their experience with MK and I feel sad for them. That is a hard place to be. I have had different events in my life where I felt like I would never piece my life back together. But I did. In my opinion the only thing that should keep you down is six feet of dirt and we will all be there someday. Short of that I think life is about building and rebuilding over and over again. I stay around the MK community so that as people come and go through MK they know that no business is the be all and end all of life.

  38. OH for the record I have no proof that these two ladies are directors by the way. I believe them and take their word for it. The only proof I have is my heart and most of the time its right.


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