Sunday, July 20, 2008

Are ALL Mary Kay ladies scary?

I recently stumbled upon an image that captured a concept about Mary Kay that I have often considered, but have a difficult time summarizing simply.

I found the following political cartoon on the Time website. I am not really sure how to give credit to a cartoonist that has been published online... so I have just replicated the credit they gave... hope that is enough. (If you are having trouble seeing the image, go here

John Cole / The Times Tribune / Cagle Cartoons

So, what incredible revelation about Mary Kay was I able to draw from that?

Glad you asked.

You see, as with anything in life, there are always the ".....maniacs". In this cartoon, there are the "Islamaniacs" and the "Obamaniacs". In Mary Kay there are the "MaryKayniacs", lovingly referred to as KayBots. There are religion nuts in every religion, health nuts, animal rights activist nuts, athletic nuts, car nuts, and on and on.

Most people that belong to a certain subset of society (religious, business, political, etc.) recognize that there are people that take their beliefs or opinions to an extreme. The Christian must suffer the consequences of the abortion clinic bomber's claims of "doing it for Christ". The devout Muslim is plagued by the choices of the "radicals" that plot and execute acts of terror "in the name of Allah". Health conscious people everywhere feel the effects of their "extreme" counterpart's outrageous claims.

To an extent, the vast majority of "us" (the populous of the world) realize that the "freaks" don't speak for the "whole". Religious zealots are not an accurate representation of that religion's beliefs. The "nuts" are a frustrating distraction from the message that the "silent" majority wishes to convey.

Take cliff diving. Most people that cliff dive would probably prefer that very few (if any) people join their sport. It is dangerous and is really a unique specialty sport that is arguably enhanced by the fact that so few people participate. While it could be argued that anyone who leaps from a cliff is a "nut", for the sake of this illustration, let's assume that there is a cliff diver that is "extreme" in his passion for cliff diving... to the extent that he thinks EVERYONE should try it at least once in their life. To spread the "good news" of cliff diving, he is constantly on an aggressive campaign to find new "believers". His zeal drives him to beg and plead with everyone he meets to "at least just climb up to the top of the cliff with me and watch me jump a few times...". When this proves to not really "convert" anyone, he takes it a step further and begins pushing people from the precipice he has lured them to.

I know that is an extreme and unlikely scenario, but we can all imagine how frustrating it would be to the "regular" cliff divers as this guy would probably become the "face" of cliff diving. The ones that prefer to just dive in peace don't get attention from the press.

So there are freaks in every camp. So what? We all knew that already right? Why bring this up?

Good question.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the "freaks" of their particular religious, political or other affiliation get caricatured and "poked fun of". In fact, I think most people will laugh right along. After all, an Obama supporter is not neccessarily an Obamaniac. Also, most people can deal with and tolerate their beliefs being criticized. "It is my belief, it is my opinion. Make fun of it if you will, I will not be moved."

The problem comes in when people start confusing the ".....maniacs" with the (relatively) normal people that believe similarly. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. If someone that is a rectangle (but not a square) gets called a square, they will naturally protest.

Obama Supporter.

Yes, I support Obama. Yes, the Obama supporters that are offended by a silly cartoon are outrageous and extreme. No, I am not one of those. And in fact, most of us are not.


Yes, I believe in God and in salvation through Jesus. Yes, the abortion clinic bombers (and all the other zealots) are scary and wrong and in deep need of professional help. No, I am not one of those. And in fact, most of us are not.

Mary Kay Consultant.

Yes, I love Mary Kay. I like selling it, I like representing the company, I like finding other people to sell it as well. Yes, some people representing the company get out of hand and have caused some serious damage to innocent women. No, I am not one of those. And in fact, most of us are not.

The question then, is, are most Mary Kay people "MaryKayniacs"? Or are most Mary Kay people just like sales people in any organization? Passionate about their product and always on the lookout for solid business partnerships?

If any of you have the answer, please let me know. I personally don't think we can know. How do you measure something like that?


  1. speaking the real truthJuly 20, 2008 at 9:05 PM

    I have a few comments on this.

    I think that most people judge any organization or group by the individuals associated with said group that they personally know. For example, if you personally know one person of a certain group, you are likely to make some presumptions about that race, religion, company, or organization based on your relationship with that person. I think that we do this whether we realize it or not, and to varying degrees. More exposure to a larger group, modifies our opinions of said group. For this reason, Mary Kay Ash herself asked us to protect our reputation as people, as businesswomen. She asked us to be above reproach in our dealings. She had a desire to protect the reputation of the company and for our company to stand out from the crowd, and it has. The majority of people that I meet still have a very positive opinion of Mary Kay as a company. However, I can see that if someone has been exposed to a few bad apples, that they would have a differing opinion. I feel confident in my opinion of Mary Kay and the company because I have known hundreds, if not thousands of consultants and directors during my time in the company and I think that makes for a good test sample. We all know that in science you need a large test sample to consider the results dependable.

    My next point is that I think that we often seek out what we hope to find. We notice what we want to prove. I think for those who have not had a positive Mary Kay experience for whatever reason, that many have looked for someone to blame, have looked for those who are unethical so that they do not seem so unethical themselves, and have looked hard to prove that Mary Kay is just plain "bad". Face it, if you did not make it work, and can prove the company to be faulty, and others unethical, then the fault isn't yours, is it? If the anti-Mary Kay forces can try to make us all look like crazy Mary Kay ladies, then they in turn would look sane, right?

    David, I think we can measure that in one way. Mary Kay has been around for 45 years. If we were a bunch of crazies, wouldn't that have played out a long, long, time ago, or at least been labeled as such by mainstream society, and not just a group of bloggers?

    A lot of the anti-Mary Kay folks speak in theory. What they have heard, or what could happen, etc. I speak as to what I know and live daily. Some speak to a short term personal experience, a few to a long term experience, but in that do reveal some positives like making money. But if you read closely, most are just talking, and theorizing. How maniacal is that? In life I have found that a lot of those who claim the most loyalty to a cause do not really even have a dog in the hunt.

  2. STRT - great comments.

    Yupper, we are scary!! Boo!
    Hey David, is your wife ever scary?
    Bet Mr. Mk4me would say I am scary at times, but I don't think it would apply to when I am MKing, more likely when I am pms -ing!

    Okay, time to step away from the keyboard and go to bed, getting silly.

  3. Disillusioned with MKJuly 21, 2008 at 4:48 AM

    I don't think ALL MK ladies are scary. The majority of the ones I have met are. They just have this intense, insane quality. The new consultants seem normal, but the longer they are in MK the crazier they seem to get. Again, this is just those that I know, not all of them.

    I recently placed an order. Not much. $300 wholesale. A few friends needed some things. Well, my director was holding some kind of reward that I apparantly won. She sent me a ring with a FAKE pink "diamond" the size of my 3 year old's head. So I gave it to my daughters to add to their dress up collection. Later I ran into my director and she wanted to know where my ring was. Why wasn't I wearing it? Didn't I want to show it off?? A ring that was obviously fake? Who besides J-Lo could wear a diamond that huge and claim it was real? And if it's fake, why, oh why, would I want to wear it in public???

    In what other company would grown women get excited about large, gaudy, fake jewelry?

  4. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 6:42 AM

    disillusioned, that's pretty funny, that she really cared where that ring was. I wouldn't even be able to remember that I had mailed it to you, bu then I rarely give out anything for just ordering anyway!

  5. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 6:47 AM


    Some of you are the problem. Take for example the story posted today. I, for one, am glad that this director is out of the company. She was unethical and should not have been wearing the director's suit. While I empathize with her situation, it was self-created. Get that? Self created, not Mary Kay created. The things that she admits to are ridiculous. And all of you just rally around her like she is a poor, poor, victim.

    There are some problems with the company, but they are with people within the company, not the company itself. Many of you posting your stories "over there" are the problems. You point fingers and scream foul at Mary Kay, but when your stories are posted they are riddled with the accusations that you make on others.

    It makes me angry. I really resent having that crud slung on those of us who do not behave in that way.

  6. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 6:48 AM

    dis, I do know what you mean about some of those crazy ones. They are the ones who warm chatter the waiters and servers in the convention hall at Seminar. It drives me nuts!!! And, it is embarrassing!!!

  7. disillusioned with MkJuly 21, 2008 at 7:00 AM

    OMG, Speaking. My first and only career conference, my director warm chattered EVERYONE! The girl at the check in desk, the waitstaff, the people on the elevator with us, if they had skin, they were warm chattered. It was soooo embarrassing! And not just because she was doing it; but because so many were doing it. One of the reasons I decided to stop trying to sell was that I didn't want to be lumped in with the crazies. There seem to be so many in our area.

  8. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 7:33 AM

    dis, sorry that was one of the reasons that you quit. There are many of us that just laugh at those who behave that way and just keep making money all the same! Now, if there is an appropriate opportunity to talk with someone that is fine, but the wait staff in the conv. ctr. who are busy serving 7,000 women lunch, get real!

  9. When I went to Seminar 4 years ago I was seated next to some directors. They were trying to sign a flight attendant by the end of the flight! AND I thought she said she already had a consultant. I don't know what they were doing. I did think they were nuts. The one director did talk to me about some booking issues I was having which was cool, but warm recruiting on the plane? Come on! There's nothing "warm" about that.

  10. I left off I was seated next to the directors on the plane. :P

  11. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 8:56 AM

    This is where "Golden Rule" comes in. Interrupting someone's job is not cool, nor is it cool for those who are inconvenienced by your hogging her time. The most that I would do would be give someone some info. or exchange info.

    You know, there are nuts everywhere you go, that's really the bottom line.

    I've often thought that when I drive that I would like to have signs to indicate to others what I think of their driving, maybe we could do the same in Mary Kay. Have little signs to hold up when we see one of our own doing something STUPID!!! They could say things like, "You look like a stalker", or "your makeup looks like Tammy Fay Baker", or maybe "desperation is unbecoming", or how about, "your face could freeze in that fake smile", one of my faves, "don't wear that director's suit everywhere", or finally, "warm chattering cannot take place in the produce section where it is refrigerated".

    I guess I'm feeling like a smarty pants today, but I wish that some would change their behavior so that I do not have to wind up defending our company due to their wrong doings and stupidity.

  12. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 9:00 AM

    BTW, I must look like pooey-dooey, because no one has ever approached me in a store! What does that say? Am I unapproachable? Or do I look so sharp that I do not need any help (HAHAHAHA) or are there REALLY not that many consultants running around stalking others. Oh wait, there was that one who approached me at t-ball practice, but that really was warm chatter, and she would up being my director. No one has approached me since.

    What is wrong with me today? it must be the tofu smoothies that my son and I just made.

  13. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 9:01 AM

    is that your real pic Shades?

    if so, cute hair???

  14. The warm chatting thing at Seminar has always made me laugh, actually, I think strt and I have posted somewhere on this site about it. Let's get real, you are attending the 5th seminar, 4 other groups of over 30,000 have already ascended on Dallas and alot of them have checked into your hotel, there is a long line in back of you waiting to check in. Give it a rest, the checkin clerk knows you are a consultant. uggggggg

    Once again, it is not the majority, but if we don't make ourselves visible and obnoxious, noone knows we are the MK lady and we can just blend into society, it is only the obnoxious ones that get noticed and then they figure all of us are that way.

  15. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 12:24 PM

    I guess that it is sort of like assuming that all preachers all like some that you see on TV, huh?

  16. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 12:30 PM

    More incorrect statements "over there". I checked in over there again, and found someone talking about Mary Kay boasting about lipstick sales being up in the first 6 months of 2008 vs. the same period in 2007. The poster claims that this is due to the packaging change. The packaging change in lip colors took place in 2007, would that not have boosted wholesale orders for 2007, thus the retail reporting that Mary Kay does for 2007? As they all point out so often, we may sell the product in 2008, but Mary Kay reports on what we order. So her point is completely bogus.

  17. so funny, one rational commenter over "there" said the author had more problems than MK for her behavior, cheating stealing, etc.. the choir jumped on the bandwagon to defend her. ahhhhhhgggggg.

  18. Yes, strt, that's the real deal! :) Thanks! I love this haircut, but it will probably be long again by Christmas. I can't stay the same for too long. hee hee

  19. speaking - You seem a little too eager to sling mud. The lipsticks came out on Dec 16. It stands to reason that most of the sales of new lipsticks occurred in 2008.

  20. speaking the real truthJuly 21, 2008 at 4:59 PM

    Anonymous, please check on who slings the mud. I am responding to their comments towards an article in which a corporate representative makes comments about lipstick sales. I feel that I am cleaning the mud off of Mary Kay that is constantly slung by that group.

    I agree that many probably did not order the new colors or packaging until 2008, but the fact is that directors, some of the biggest ordering consultants in the company, could order the lip colors as early as November 26th, PCP participants (other big orderers) could order them Dec. 10th. All of those orders would count for 2007. I sold down my silver tubes and then placed my biggest order for the black tubes in November, 2007.

    In addition, there were only a few new colors added, and most clients have paid little attention to the change in packaging.

    The bottom line is that the posters over there will find something wrong with anything "pink" or "Mary Kay" without really having substantial facts to back it up, just assumptions and presumptions, no facts.

    Lip color is making a comeback according to the fashion forecasts, and like it or not, everything that you read agrees that lip color sales grow during a weak economy. Try as they may, the posters "over there" cannot negate that.

  21. I certainly hope no-one thinks I am scary. I do not warm chat unless someone comments on my lipstick or eye make-up. I always have a business card and sample ready to go, but I don't ask for phone numbers. If someone is interested, they will contact me. Most of my clients have come to me through word of mouth. No, I am not a director or even a car driver, or even aspiring to these goals. I am just interested in making some extra cash. Most of the ladies I associate with are interested in the same thing. My director and my adopted director are "bigger than life" pink caddie drivers. I have had to be clear with them where my comfort level is, and they have both been quite respectful of that.

    As I have read through some of the postings "over there", I find that I am more scared by how many women are jumping into MLM businesses without the proper research or the proper planning.

    Mary Kay doesn't create debt. The woman who orders without a plan to sell the product has created her own debt. I met the lipstick challenge that was berated "over there". Yes, I SOLD that many lipsticks; they aren't sitting on my shelf. Did I have to work for it? You bet. Was I scary? I don't think so.

    Mary Kay doesn't tell lies to hubby, kids, and friends. The consultant who isn't handling her own businesss properly or ethically tells those lies. When people ask when I am going to get my caddie, they are told the truth. That is for a full time director. I am a part time consultant.

    I am quite sure that there are some truly sad stories "over there". Women, by nature, are pleasers. They always want to put their best foot forward, and no woman wants to be embarrasssed by failure. I think that is why many women get themselves into financial trouble, and then they have trouble getting themselves out of it again.

    The main posters "over there" don't seem to want to accept their own part in their situation. What kept them from having a business plan? A pushy upline? Please. Who is responisble for YOUR finances? YOU. If someone talked you into something that was not right for you, that is your fault.

    What is truly scary is those former directors and consultants whose tirades are discouraging other women from doing what I am doing...having a little fun, selling a little make-up, and making a little money. I am debt-free (except my mortgage), and I look good in pink.

  22. GOOD MORNING!! I am not scary, I do not warm chatter unless someone asks and then I tell them. Yesterday I had a meeting with a girl that is the colonel of her dance team and she told me that the last MK Lady (two years ago) was always calling them, at home and at the school. I told rest assured that I will not do that.

    So there are scary people everywhere however we don't have to do that. I think that we all need to be treated the way that we want to be treated. The GOLDEN RULE IS ALWAYS THE WAY TO GO.

    I like my MK business and I am not pressured to do anything that I don't want to do. My director might call to tell me that I need to do this or that however if I don't want to guess what I don't. I do want to be a director and I do want to drive a car however I am not going to sign everybody and their dog up to get there. I want women that want to work this business.

    Well, I will post today I don't know about tomorrow because there is a storm headed toward us. I might be fleeing the Corpus Christi area or just go around the corner to my daddy's house. I talked with my husband who is in Iraq and he wants the girls and I to get. So If I am not able to read or post for a couple of days, those who pray please do so that this storm will take no lives. We haven't had a bad storm in like 38 years and we are due. Well thanks in advance for the prayers. Have a GREAT DAY.

  23. Anonymous, you sound very level headed, and I am glad to hear that you can confirm that your director respects your wishes in this business.

    One of the sad parts about what goes on "over there", and in any situation where one takes no responsibility for their own actions, is that they 1) do not REALLY learn from their experiences, because they blame the situation or other people rather than learning more about their own personality and character and 2) they will get no help for their problems, since they do not see themselves as the problems.

    In my opinion, that site stands to hurt some women, rather than help them. Some of these women have some serious problems. If you are willing to lie to your family, cheat, and run up crazy amounts of debt to win a simple contest, then there are some issues at play that you need to work on. It doesn't mean that you are a terrible person, just that you have some issues. Maybe it is immaturity, or low self esteem, but there are some issues. To tell you that it is all big bad Mary Kay's fault is NOT helping you. You will be a sitting duck when other life situations, ones that are far more harmful than Mary Kay ever could be, come along.

  24. speaking the real truthJuly 22, 2008 at 6:35 AM

    whoops, that was me above...

  25. speaking the real truthJuly 22, 2008 at 6:36 AM

    Pink Bren, I hope that you and your family are safe, how scary!

  26. I second what strt said!

    Keep us posted. Be safe.

  27. "The question then, is, are most Mary Kay people "MaryKayniacs"? Or are most Mary Kay people just like sales people in any organization? Passionate about their product and always on the lookout for solid business partnerships?"

    I believe that most MK people are sensible, reasonable, logical, balanced people.

    I believe that it is the minority who are "MaryKayniacs" and these are ones who are NOT sensible, reasonable, logical, balanced people. These "MaryKayniacs" are the ones who think that "find a way, make a way" means, or gives them permission, or even encouragement, to lie, cheat, and steal. This is of course just my opinion based on my own experiences, observations, and reading of anti- and pro-MK sites.

    Most sensible, reasonable, logical, balanced people understand what "find a way, make a way" really means. Same with "whatever it takes" and all the others forms of the same type of phrase.

    I believe that most MK people are "Passionate about their product and always on the lookout for solid business partnerships" and on the lookout for new customers. They are on this "lookout" in a manner that is sensible, reasonable, logical, and balanced.

    BTW, in all my 16 years in MK, I don't think that I've ever been warm chatted by a MK person. Even when I've been looking sharp and slammin' and wandering around myself, I've not been warm chatted.

    Something that I have noted quite a bit in the internet anti- and pro-MK world, is how few people use the Weekly Plan Sheet. I can't help but think that if those who post "over there" had only really used the WPS they would not have gotten so out of balance.

    A bit of advice for those in MK, please USE the Weekly Plan Sheet. This really will help you stay balanced, sensible, logical, reasonable, and consistent.

  28. HI, Personally I think that those over there want to put MK down at any cost. I know that there are women that are scary however I think that there are more that are not. This is just my opinion.

    It all rest on personal responsibility. We have to be accountable for our own actions. We can't blame others for the things that we do. The buck stops with you as a business owner. I think that many over there have lied and cheated by their own admission and it is sad really. I wouldn't want to be lied to like that. I run my MK business on the up and up.

    You know that I do a health fair every year in the small town that I live in and when women fill out the little card that I have for them to fill out if they have a consultant and they list her name when I get home I do my best to find that consultant and tell her what her customer put on the card. I would want someone to do the same for me. Know if that consultant is no longer a consultant then at that time I will contact that customer and offer her my services. So scary MK Lady NO. Scary mom maybe or my kids will say that.

    Thanks for the prayers. The storm is actually going in we think at Brownsville so we will just get rain and wind so that is a blessing. The girls and I are not leaving. However with hurrincanes they can change directions in an instant. So we are watching closley.

  29. Reading Rebecca's post made me think of a slogan for a popular footwear manufacturing...
    Find a way, make a way... means to many of us, bust our butt, roll up your sleeves, work your touchie off, don't give up.. sprint the distance.... not cheat, lie, or charge....
    but if it is taken as such..

    does Nike's slogan ....
    Just Do It...

    means if I put on my Nikes I can go "just do ANYTHING" I want to do??
    Then I can say...buttt......ttttt
    wellllllll....Nike, told me to just do it...... they make great footwear, the sell loads of shoes, so I just did it...

    Hmmm. oh yes, they call me the streak, look at that, look at that, fastest thing on two feet...
    but officer... I am wearing my Nikes... and they said to just do it... For you y'ung uns... that is a song...

  30. speaking the real truthJuly 22, 2008 at 7:10 PM

    mk4me, you must have drank one of those tofu smoothies that I had earlier in the week, that's hilarious, but accurate!

    PB, you are so right. Tonight I was determined to increase my sales for the week by having a $100 day, so I parked my little fanny, well, rather large fanny, in my office chair and started dialing. Did I harass anyone, No. Stalk anyone? No. I called my clients and asked if they were getting low on anything. One of them even brought up that she still wanted to see all of those "new colors" $123 in sales, 1 new party booked. That is doing what is takes, making things happen. NOT getting out your cc and charging up a big order.

  31. speaking the real truthJuly 22, 2008 at 7:12 PM

    I also don't get it. "Over there" they accuse us in Mary Kay of lying, cheating, and all sorts of things, but it seems that they are the ones confessing to doing these things.
    Do they not see that it is consultants and directors like themselves that they are in turn talking about????

  32. I know, I have been feeling silly lately, guess I am looking forward to Seminar, I leave Friday and won't be back until late Wednesday, I don't like rushing around.

    I had to go get a new cell phone today, while the "techie" was showing the "dope" (mk4me) so of the awesome features my new touchscreen Voyager phone, she asked me about my makeup..... guess what she can't wait for me to get back from Dallas so we can get together. (I tried to not be too scary) =

    strt!! hey girl, that big butt thing goes along with blogging, I am going to have to balance blogging and exercise after I get back from Dallas, right now I am doing the two day Hollywood juice diet so I can eat while I am in Dallas!

    also, maybe one of the biggest reasons they can't figure things out over there is they are soooooo very busy pointing a finger at everyone else, that that don't realize 4 are pointing back at themselves.

    I think the scary mk ladies soon become ex mk ladies, and some scary pt ladies.

  33. I think I agree with MK4Me, the scary MK ladies become ex-MKers and become scary PT ladies.

    Thank goodness they're out of MK!


    I think there is another thing that distinguishes the scary from the non-scary. Well, okay, two things:

    1. Keeping priorities straight, God first, Family second, career third. (I can't help it, I must add - "not 33rd!) I've heard Mary Kay say you keep these three priorities in order, and everything else will fall into place. The Weekly Plan Sheet really helps with this!

    2. Again, keeping another set of priorities straight: Book, Sell, Recruit. In that order.

    I'm guessing that neither MK4Me, or STRT, ever "warm recruit". Ugh. Warm chat is seamlessly woven into the normal activities of life.

    "Warm Recruit", oh, can I scream loud and long enough? Where do people get this idea? We're supposed to recruit people to sell this product. We gotta book 'em first, then sell to 'em, THEN recruit them. Book, Sell, Recruit. In that order. (Yeah, yeah, I know, there are exceptions to the rule. But ya don't build a solid and truly successful MK business on the exceptions. Or any business for that matter.)

  34. speaking the real truth said...
    "I also don't get it. "Over there" they accuse us in Mary Kay of lying, cheating, and all sorts of things, but it seems that they are the ones confessing to doing these things.
    Do they not see that it is consultants and directors like themselves that they are in turn talking about????"

    I don't get this one, either. How many in their own units/downlines could say the same thing about them, that they are saying about their uplines? (Okaaaaaay, that's confusing. I hope ya'll followed that.)

    But, for me, the bottom line is a lie is a lie is a lie. Cheating is cheating is cheating. When a person makes it a matter of principle to NOT lie or cheat, then she will NOT lie or cheat. IMO it will be pretty much impossible to manipulate such a principled person into lying and/or cheating. Period.

    As for manipulation.... well, that's an interesting topic. There is a huge amount of manipulation that goes on "over there". Here's two examples:

    1. It only takes "3 days" to receive an order.

    I don't know about every member of the sales force, but my orders usually take about 7 days to get to me. Sometimes as soon as 4 days. I've never never never received an order in less than 4 days. In fact, my last order took 11 days. I'm pretty sure that for those who live within the same state as their distribution center, that their orders may take just 2-3 days.

    IMO it is manipulation to insinuate that all order take only 3 days.

    2. "98% - 99%" don't make the big money, based on what is read in the Applause magazine.

    That would be 1-2%. I looked in my Applause magazine. "Over there", they a lumping NSDs and Directors together, so I did, too. I did the math, and it's 5% who are featured in the Applause.

    5% is more than double 2%. 5% is five times more than 1%. 5% seems like a small number. But my point is the manipulation of the numbers that goes on "over there".

    So now, even though they are no longer "brainwashed" or "in the pink fog", they are STILL being (what do they call it?) "master manipulators".

    Is it lies?
    Is it cheating?
    Is it merely manipulation?

    It's not exactly honest.

  35. My opinion from reading (alot) over there, is that even though they are not a consultant for Mk any longer, their behavior hasn't changed. So I think it boils down to personality and ethics of the individual.

    I still see "recruiting" going on- they suck up and be real nice to first time confessors until they disagree with them and wham, bam, thank you and good bye ma'am... They still "warm attack" - give out pt cards and info and forward unask for emails and articles to now try to get people out of MK where before they would try to get peopel in.

    They want praise and recognition for their confessions, and they goosh sweetness with their comments, how Lala, it is so good of you to come forward anonymously to tell all the bad you did. You are so brave to do this..hmmm

    They get kudos aka recognition for a favored comment.

    Now they even have contest - haha - for the avatars, and not only did only some of the pics get put up for a vote, then you have ones like SuzyQ who tried "manipulating people" into voting for you avatar by telling people that their "goddess" TC (aka MK in their comparison of MK) designed the thing for her, hoping it would help her win. Win what??? Now they are doing the same things they did in MK and for what??

    They promote the TRUE friends you have on pt, hmmmm - many don't even know each other and if they did pass each other in the grocery store, if they hit each other with the cart, they wouldn't know who it was. They turn on each other at such a rate and get banned, that even blogs have been started with the ex mkers who are now ex-pters too.

    Others have admitted to TC writing many of the comments using different names, making up some of the "hate emails" to drive up visits.

    And then they will put money in TC's pockets by clicking on her google ads, buying pt cards, buying pt clothing, or putting money in the paypal tip bucket.


    and I must admit, I work from home so I have loads of time to blog - between my in and outs, if some of them over there needed money so very badly, how is it that they still have no job and they can blog all day?? Also, some of the ones that boast about getting a great paying job, and then I notice that they post off and on all day, are they blogging on their employers time? Isn't that also cheating your employer?

    My question, is where do you think "Scary Mary KaY Ladies" go when they are still scary but no longer MK ladies?

  36. A couple of you here are being just as catty as some on PT.

    PT posters generalize all MKers the same way that some of you on this blog generalize all PTers.

    Same, same, same.

    PTers hate what MK stands for. My God, did you see what Pam Shaw is doing? And what Gloria Banks did? Tacky, tacky. Who can defend those actions?

    Same with PTers going on and on about MK and the charities. Waste of time.

    The more you guys on this blog whine about PTers the more credibility you give them.

    There are alot of bad directors in MK. Can't deny it. Do it right and you shouldn't have anything to worry about. But if the bad behavior of some is disrupting your business, get with MKC to do something about it. If it is not harming you in any way, what do you care what they are saying.

  37. I think I will use Davids line..
    something like ..MK is a business..proceed at your own risk..

    Same goes for everything else...

    Don't like the contests, don't participate, gotta admit, it wouldn't motivate me at all, so big deal, doesn't embarrass me near as much as those on pt admitting to all their sins while in MK saying we all do it!

    We all in MK "all do it" anymore than everyone on pt "all do it"
    The difference with us catty ones over here is we say
    (some, some, some ) not like pters:
    (all, all, all, all, no one making money in mk is honest. Read for yourself... you notice your comment is allowed to stay here, we try to maintain a balance, we admit that there are moe pro-mkers posting but we have some great anti-mkers that post here - we have a great conversations, hence an outsider can see good ways to do things and ways that may not work and what to watch out for, etc...

    Try posting anything good about MK or how something can work. Pooof, faster than a speeding bullet it will be deleted or everyone attaks the poster until they go away or changes their tone so they don't get beat down. If that is what the site is about, fine... then call it our true MK experience not The Truth about MK.... (all) not my experiences not truth to me. But oh Lordy, let me try to post that on pt.

    Do you see, and yes, I am sure they can affect us (those of us that FEEL we are doing things right and ethically) because if someone does find that site, they might believe the "extremes" - and I still say - they are the same in life, as they were in MK, it is more about personality than a business model.

  38. And for the record I do not feel all pt ers are bad, or stupid, or lazy loosers.

    But, in my humble opinion, TC doesn't give two cents about the posters there, it is all about money.

    It is sad that her anti mk blog, when we didn't have any money losses from MK, does loads better than her business blog, which she is suppose to be such an export in her field. Accept it, it is all about the money. Her time goes to where the MONEY is.

    She continues to scream that all nationals want money, well, the old saying it takes one to know one, certainly seems to apply to that situation.

  39. speaking the real truthJuly 23, 2008 at 3:51 PM

    Arabella, if you read here much, you will know that I speak out about things like the GMB event at the mansion as much as some of those "over there".

    I don't think that we are being catty, since we are pointing out principles of behavior, and not just ones in theory, "that we have seen along the way", ones that are over there, in print, right now.

  40. Disillusioned with MKJuly 23, 2008 at 4:12 PM

    PTers do the exact same thing, Speaking. They are just on the other side of the fence. Yes, they do go overboard, yes they do exaggerate some points. But that can be seen on the pro side of the fence, also. It amazes me how alike both sides are in their attitudes of one another.

  41. speaking the real truthJuly 23, 2008 at 5:35 PM

    I think the main difference is that those of us here can see the positive and negative of Mary Kay. "Over there", it seems that according to them Mary Kay is evil and that is it.

    I agree that both sides can exaggerate things, but I think that most of the posters here try to be fair. There are things that I would like to see change within Mary Kay, even some of the things that they discuss "over there". But my opinion is that the leader of that group would never meet on some middle ground of an issue, to her, Mary Kay is all bad.

    I think some of you are missing the point that Rebecca and are are trying to make on this thread. "Over there" they point fingers to all of the lies and deception, but then confess to being the ones who were doing the some of the lying and deceiving. Can't they see that maybe they are the problem, and that there are those of us who do not operate that way, and that is why we are still in the company, happy, and making money?


  42. MK4ME - Your post up above "hit the nail on the head" re: the warm recruiting on PT, how nice they are to the person when they first confess, how they will dump all over someone for asking a question, etc. I wonder, too, about the money making side of that site. Why are there MLM ads on there? I wonder sometimes about the amount of investigations someone currently does - or is all of their income from writing and blogging now? I also wonder if they have any experience in actually being a manager in a corporation when you deal with ethics complaints, investigate them, and then resolve them, sometimes terminating employees in some cases. Note: the company isn't gone, the bad employee is! Every company has to guard and protect itself against fraud, that is for sure. On the other hand, I wonder a bit about Mary Kay Corporate - how much Section 2 income do they really have and stuff like that. I know MKhonesty got on my case about being interested in this but you know, being an accountant, I just love to analyze the numbers and see what the story is there. Are there managers in Corporate that just want to see the sales to the consultant and perhaps do not care much about building end customer base? Anyway, enough of my curiousity for the day - oh wait, what about the whole sending complaints into court about Mary Kay - someone was posting on that on PT about a month ago - and about getting news coverage - and then others were like, hey we have to be sure we are ready for this since tough questions will be asked. Did anybody on PT decided to do something? Oh no, here I go again - too much exposure, too fast, the public sneers at the people confessing and says it was your own darn fault and PT implodes leaving someone without their website income. Hmmmmm...okay enough conspiracy theories for now!

  43. Ah, I have to chime in!

    One of the reasons I posted here the first time was because what I noticed between here and "over there" was the same kind of bashing of each other. Rather comical, actually.

    I used to sell Mary Kay. My experience mirrored a lot of what is posted "over there". Which is why I can relate to a lot of what's reported. I never went beyond IBC and I managed to break even, more or less. I'm not bitter. I just really feel strongly about anybody getting involved in direct selling in any of them. Do it if that's what you want to do. But really, be aware and interpret the "requirements" and possible consequences of each step.

    I think what we have to acknowledge is that when people post, they generalize. If you fit into that "title" but your practices don't match the activities in question, you really need to step back and say to yourself that the person isn't talking about "you" specifically, but rather about the person who did them wrong. Unfortunately, things just end up getting grouped together.

    Hey I was "PU" with benefits (friends and family supplementing my "habit".) What good things are ever said about being PU? Anytime I've ever heard a director speak about PU, they hold their nose and say it like they've smelled a skunk... Like from the podium during fall retreat! Talk about a feel good moment, LOLOL!!! I couldn't marched up to her afterwards and given her a piece of my mind. But ultimately, I was clear about what my involvement would be from the outset and stood proud.

    Also, if what is being said "over there" is having a noticeable impact on business around you... For example, you're witnessing an impact around you based on what's being reported "over there". Then, if I were you, I would really examine what's really happening around you in other units. Just because you don't operate that way, doesn't mean that others around you don't. If business is down because of "over there" then, I hate to be the bearer of bad news (good news?)... but maybe the problems are more significant than you're willing to acknowledge and now they're being cleaned up. Because if consultants are quitting and their directors are quitting because of poor business practices, then the weeds are being weeding and you have room to grow. At least from the (now) outside looking in, that's how I'm seeing it.

    As per today "over there", I hate the thought of a new consultant coming in with a full wagon, like I did, when they don't have anyone to sell to, yet, except for their immediate family and close friends. $4200 is just too much! That's wholesale! It's really self-serving for the director and upline when somebody comes in with $3600+. There's really no justification.

  44. I think pt is more entertaining than informing. Some of those posts should be turned in for the next story line on Young and Restless. I have thought about the amount of exageration that is there. How does anyone know what's true in any post. I mean anyone could post a product send back amount and just trying to make things look bad. At least here nobody's trying to claim huge percentages either profit or loss that are so big they can't be believed. When you read here that TC picks and chooses the posts she wants to have shown, you begin to wonder how much other information can be trusted there. Maybe she needs to build a bridge and get over it.

  45. Is it just me, or is the battle between balancedMaryKay and PT degenerating into a pseudo race war with neither being able to accept the other because of their own prejudiced views?

    Maybe you need to ask yourself what type of network marketers you really are?

  46. MARY KAY IS A BUSINESS opportunity. Period.
    fb64- if you have read here for any lenght of time, you have seen the active directors agree with you. Large nventories ARE NOT the best way for most consultants to start. Start and build your inventory as you build your customer base and figure out what you sell.

    I have said it over and over again, the majority of my unit members start between $0 and $600 - occassionally on a rare occassion, a $1200 or $1800 - that is it- I have Never, I said Never had a consultant come in with more than $2400, and that was one gilr one time against me counsel. (To my pleasant surprised it didn't scare her, she moved alot of product!)

  47. One of the biggest lies over there is the pics posted about Seminar!
    Yes there are some gaps in 2008 vs 2006 but they are not that huge!! Also ALL directors dont go to Seminar. Im sure attendance is low this year due to the economy but just because you dont see tons of debuting directors doesnt mean the company is not making money. I have my computer back now (hi Shades!!!)

  48. Um, the gaps are pretty big. And one of my director's and national's selling points was that MK was recession proof, so the economy shouldn't have much of an impact on attendance, right?? Just book a couple more SCCs, right? Isn't that what we were always told to do if we needed more money? It works when we work?

    And I thought the title of this blog was balanced MK, not balanced PT. Why does everyone comment on what's going on over there? If you don't agree with a post over there, write up a post over here with how you feel, without refering to them. It looks like wer are chasing PT's tail. Not pretty.

  49. speaking the real truthJuly 24, 2008 at 7:25 AM

    Arabella, this is the only place to rebut what is said over there. If you comment "over there", with much of anything against what has been said, it will not be allowed through. EVERY comment is moderated.

    FlyBye, the postings "over there" are not having a noticeable impact on my business. (And, for the record, I refer to that site as "over there" so that I do not inadvertently send them any traffic.) My area is actually seeing big sales, bookings, etc. It's from those who work the business "old school", booking and selling. I actually have more consultants attending Seminar this year than last, and they are not new consultants.

    I've only had one unit member mention the website and she just said that she was glad that I am her director, that's all.

    I don't consider what we do here "BASHING". I saw the bashing of "that site" and its participants on yet a third site. What we try to do is dispel the mis truths and falsehoods that are posted there. We are not here to wage personal attacks, etc. However, they do engage in personal attacks, and over the years have gone as far as attacking personal appearance (weight, hair, breasts), clothing choices, etc., as well as business activities). I think there is a big difference in that and what we do here.

    This is not a tit for tat with them. I consider it a debate about the facts, and we try to stick to the facts, AND THE TRUTH. In order to do that, we must respond to what they post that we feel is incorrect or just plain untrue.

    Their ultimate goal is to bring down Mary Kay Cosmetics. Currently, no, they are not affecting my business. I understand your points about if they were. However, if someone was trying to destroy your livelihood, through whatever means necessary, would you not take a stand? Especially when those means are not always truthful or accurate?

  50. It is true. I have had a post refused at pt. It was polite and did not "bash". But I did ask some questions that I thought were important.

    After that I came to the conclusion that pt was not a place to find accurate information. It has biased by the operator.

    Is it possible the photographs have been altered? Perhaps or perhaps not. The point is that not everything can be taken at face value on the internet.

  51. But, Speaking, if it is NOT affecting your livelyhood and you don't think the majority of directors are behaving the way PTers say, why say ANYthing? Why try to refute what a low percentage are doing, especially if you are not affected?

    I don't understand why proMKers get so upset by what is said on pink truth if those practices are done by such a small percentage of consultants. Many on this site have said that the majority do it right. If that's the case, why not ignore pink truth? Since it has so little impact on your business.

    I, personally, don't think PT has a huge impact. I had heard of the crazy mary kay lady loooong before the internet was here and really long before hearing of pink truth. The crazy mary kay lady made a name for herself all on her own. Pink truth just told the secrets of the business side, behind the scenes. The wackiness was out there for all to see.

  52. All of the comments here are biased. Not by the operator, but by the commentor. Tracy, and I do not know her, has stated clearly that pink truth is NOT a place to debate whether or not MK is doable. She is there to clearly say how bad it is. PT was not set up to show both sides. Just like pro MK sites do not bring up the down side of MK and talk about that for a while. Oh, sure, here some will say that what is done is wrong, but they don't go over and over it like they do the good stuff. If you are working your business the right way, you shouldn't have to refute what pink truth is saying, your actions should do that for you.

  53. Interesting. So, I suppose we should just all shut up, ignore "over there", and go away (er, get off the internet). Thus leaving "over there" pretty much the only internet MK site that is easily found by anyone doing research on the internet.

    Yeah. Uh huh. Right.


    Freedom of Speech. "Over there" are not the only ones who are allowed this Freedom of Speech. We've got it, too!

    "Over there" is not truly interested in helping women see the pitfalls. "Over there" wants to shut down MK. (As STRT wrote.)It's clearly written on the site by the site owner.

    However, I also agree with MK4Me (?), "over there" is all about making money and that site is a money maker for the owner. Therefore, whatever generates the hits, the people to come read, look, and click on whatever else so she makes some more money.....

    (Just my own opinion, naturally, even though it's based on what I know about the owner from watching/reading her stuff for a few years......)

  54. As for initial inventory orders: IMO not a big deal.

    Even if a newbie does start with $4200, if she uses the 60/40 money management, she'll be okay.

    Example; If she sells $100 a week, r/t, that's $400 in a month. $200 is used to order more product. $40 is used for section 2, and other incidentals. $160 is per "profit", or can be used on that credit card payment.


    Yes, it really is simple. And to be bluntly, brutally honest, a person selling $100 a week needs to be extremely frugal with her expenses. If she really wants to be going to events, etc., she must up her sales.

    Now, regarding the "front loading" accusation obsession: What a joke! The numbers themselves reveal that "front loading" is not common. If it was common, the averages would be much, much, much higher. Therefore, I firmly believe that there are very few, extremely few, that come into MK with a huge initial order. I firmly believe that MK4Me represents the majority on this particular issue.

  55. Hey Rebecca, have you been following any of David's articles on FP? For all, if you didn't get a chance to read them, it is worth the time, he did a great job, if you get a chance, read the comments on part 4 after the articles and tell me if I am missing something please??

  56. I just wanted to note that I think there are 3 types of posters on pink truth. There are the scammers/liars, there are foolish women who would make poor decisions in any business venture (that woman with $40k retail) and there are the legitimately scammed women. I think the first 2 really ruining the credibility of the site for me.

    If pink truth was a complaint stop for consultants who had been deceived into large "full stores" and then had crummy, mean or lying directors it would be better. I hate reading the stories of the scammers and how they regret "pulling" inventory and the stories of the foolish women who bought their prizes.

    We had a discussion here last week about the % of failure for MLM or direct sales. I think the largest percent of failure comes from recruiting women who shouldn't and do not want to be recruited and convincing them to purchase inventory. No one here can deny that this is an approved practice by many NSDs and SDs. You only have to go on their unitnet sites and look at their scripts to see "overcoming objections" on almost every open to the public site. I opened 12 different sites and there was a script on each one on how to recruit a woman who says no! If a woman says she has no time because she has 3 kids, a job and PTA, then she has NO time! And she certainly doe not have enough time to sell a full store within her first quarter with zero experience and a lot of reluctance. If a woman says she hates sales and doesn't want to sell, do not overcome her objection!

    Here is what happened to me. A girl recruited me at a Monday night meeting. She had her baby at the meeting and told me how she took her baby to SCC and how flexible the job was. She told me how she made $400 in sales the previous week and how she never thought she could sell. I said I was not a salesperson and she said that that is exactly what Mary Kay looks for. With the appropriate script follow up. She said the kit was only $100 and why not try it? I figured I would. 2 days later, her and her director come to my apartment to help me set up in touch. That's what they claimed anyway. Then they try to get me to buy $3600 in inventory. I said no way. They were very pushy and rude when I refused.

    I tried to sell, but I am not a sales person (space intended). I do not like asking people to buy things. I did not like not advertising and I didn't feel right charging friends and family full price (i am not a sales person). I called my recruiter and told her I was frustrated. She said she was too and she was getting a part time nanny for her daughter because people were saying no to the baby being at SCC- from back before I was ever recruited, I counted the dates. So much for family friendly like she claimed to get me in- the lying jerk.

    OK, this was long, but I made a point that fits well into the title and other comments. The scary image comes from women like these, who misdirect and deceive because they have an ulterior motive. These type of women account for the legitimate complaints on pink truth. It is not just my experience. I know of 4 personal friends and family who have had similar experiences, including being lied to that you were required to buy $3600.

    And please do not tell me that they should have tried to find out if it really was required. MK has been around for years and most everyone knows it. When a SD interviews a woman, the woman is under the impression that it is a real job and that the SD is policed by the company. Most women do not understand that MK Corp does not police its sales force (independent right?) and many women therefore believe that MK Corp condones or approves or even endorses the practices of its directors.

    I'll give an example. I went to get a job with a particular company that said I needed to buy a $125 uniform during the interview. I never asked if I really needed to spend the money because it was a legit company with years of good standing. My cousin that bought a $3600 store never thought that Mary Kay had scammers representing it and she was called for an interview and actually interviewed by an SD and a recruiter. When they said $3600 she believed she was following a MK Corp endorsed practice.

  57. speaking the real truthJuly 24, 2008 at 10:46 AM

    I think that what Arabella is missing is that these radical attempts to bring down Mary Kay at any costs could potentially hurt us. What about the gal who wants to join Mary Kay but reads "over there", believes some of the untruthful matter, and decides against a Mary Kay business? That is not just a loss to the recruiter, but to her.

    I do on the other hand believe that my personal conduct around my clients will far outweigh the outrageous stories that one might read on the internet, and I conduct myself accordingly.

    Mom, I've heard and known of stories like yours, and they are usually related to a certain director or group. In a town where I used to live, there was one more aggressive director who had a reputation for high pressure and large inventory packages. I am sorry for your negative experience.

    There IS a middle ground. More pressure from those IN Mary Kay against those practicing these tactics, AND more due diligence by those starting a business before they invest thousands of dollars.

  58. Rebecca, I do not mean that pro MKers should not say how they do their business ethically. I do think that side should be talked about. But I don't think you need to refute everything pink truth says. I think if a consultant conducts herself in a way that is contrary to the MK stereotype, she will be OK and her actions will provide the defense she needs. But when we comment every day on what pink truth is saying, I feel it just gives credence to that site.

    And for the record, if anyone is talked into signing up with $4200, without having a knowledge of the product - and who does as soon as they sign up - then the director needs to be taken to task. That is way to much inventory. That is asking for problems. I don't think ANY inventory should be ordered before the consultant does her first SCC. Until you know what you can sell and how your market reacts you have no way of knowing how much you will need. What happens when you get that huge order and someone orders something you don't have? Now you have to order again. Makes no sense.

    And no one minds waiting. Honestly, when you are invited to a home party you know they won't have everything you want right there. I waited 3 weeks for my tupperware, and didn't bat an eye.

    And earlier someone said something about not getting their order from MK in less than 7 days. My orders have always come in by UPS in 2-3 days and 1-2 when I do a product return. And I don't live in the same state as a distribution center. Unless I order the first day of the month, I see it pretty quickly. And, really, a week is not bad.

  59. Speaking, how is it a loss to her? What is she really missing out on? MK is not the be all end all. She can get whatever she needs from another job. I think that is the root of why some may think that the mary kay lady is crazy. Some seem to think that MK is the only way to go. You can work and stay home with your kids with a job other than MK. You can get great skin care from a company other than MK. You can have friends that are closer than sisters in another business other than MK. If she misses out on selling mary kay cosmetics and skin care it is not the end of the world.

  60. mk4me, I wasn't accusing anybody on this site of frontloading, or coming in with more inventory than necessary. I'm aware of how you guys operate your businesses. It's to be commended.

    Actually, your response was kinda comical when I read it because it spoke to the point of my post.

    The last comment on my post was just as an aside.

    Good to hear that everyone's business is doing well. I mean that sincerely. Tough times for most, you know.

  61. MK4Me, yes, I've read all 4 parts of Dave's articles on FP. I just went and read all the comments on Part 4.


    Naw, MK4Me, you're not missing anything. It's just xxxx waxing poetic (not!) with masterful word manipulation. You and Dave have xxxx pegged exactly right.

  62. Arabella wrote, "And no one minds waiting. Honestly, when you are invited to a home party you know they won't have everything you want right there. I waited 3 weeks for my tupperware, and didn't bat an eye."

    " one minds waiting." I'll agree that some don't mind waiting. I'll also agree that some will NOT wait. I've experienced both. Believe me, it is not pleasant dealing with the customers who do not want to wait.

    "And earlier someone said something about not getting their order from MK in less than 7 days. My orders have always come in by UPS in 2-3 days and 1-2 when I do a product return. And I don't live in the same state as a distribution center. Unless I order the first day of the month, I see it pretty quickly. And, really, a week is not bad."

    Uhm, that was me. My point was that TC made a statement, sounding like she meant it as a fact, that all orders come in 3 days. That is incorrect. False. Misleading. Manipulative. SOME orders come in 3 days, SOME orders come in 1-2 days, SOME orders come in 7 days. SOME orders even take 11 days!

    I do believe that Dave's whole thing here is that some will take the experience of some and make it the experience of all.

    In all my 16 years in MK I have never, not once, never ever ever, received by order in less that 4 days. This is my experience. This is not the experience of all.

  63. Let me clarify; if the product is worth it to the customer, they will wait for it. Be it 2 days, 5 days, 7 days, or 11. And if the service is there, they will wait and not go to another consultant.

    I could go to WalMart and buy rubbermaid. It's cheaper, it's quicker to get and there is a lot of it. But it's not tupperware. So I pay more and wait for it to come in. The same could be said for MK.

  64. Arabella, you have valid points.

    As do I.

    I don't WANT my customers to have to wait. Nor do I have the TIME to do in two steps what I can do in one step. (i.e. selling appointment, personal delivery, mailing, or customer pick up from my place.)

    For ME, I have found that it is best that I stock inventory. I'm pretty sure that there are other MK people who prefer to stock inventory, too. I'm going to change that statement to I am POSITIVE there are other MK people who prefer to stock inventory - MK4Me and STRT are two that I can think of right off the top of my head.

    Additionally, the customer's ability to receive their products immediately is something that Mary Kay deliberately set up when she created this company. It is also something that sets us apart from other direct sales companies. And I like it this way.

    Arabella, I have heard/read your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, and to voice your opinion. Freedom of speech and all that. ;)

  65. Interesting that when we say that what does upset alot of us it that the site "pt" says it is The Truth about MK. (as in the only true) when pro-mkers complain about that there is no balance and comments for good things in Mk are deleted, the defense is that..if you read what the Site is all about it clearly states that isn't about any of the good stuff. - So we are SUPPOSE TO READ ABOUT THE SITE- and those that don't will just think that those are the only MK stories ?????????????

    Are we suppose to read the disclaimer the same way people DON'T READ THE AGREEMENT OR ANY OF THE OTHER MATERIAL ON INVENTORY?

    Sort of sounds like do as I say, not as I do.

  66. "The Truth" can differ from person to person. Each person's experience is that person's truth.

    It is my truth that all director's try to frontload a bunch of product on a new IBC. This is my truth because it was done to me by my director. It was done to my SIL by her director. It was done to my best friend by my director. It was done to a co worker by her director. Every director I have personally met, has tried to frontload. Granted, I only know 6 personally. And all 6 have IBCs that have told the same story. That does not mean that every director in MK does it. But it is my experience. That is MY truth.

    Which is why it is so refreshing to hear about MK4ME and Speaking. From their posts, they do not encourage large initial orders. Which is my biggest beef with MK.

  67. Can someone please explain to me why Mary Kay Corp regulates dress code, advertisement, method of sale(no auction, no actual store, no craigslist)but they do not regulate the ttraining materials that SDs and NSDs are allowed to publish on their sites? Seriously, read some of the scripts on the unitnet sites and tell me that they don't perpetuate the crazy Mary Kay lady myth. There is a script on several for calling a person 5 times! 5! There are scripts for annoying a person as they shop in a store. There are scripts for persuading a person to join when they do not want to, scripts for "pulling" inventory and on and on. Now, even with MK consultants being independednt, MK Corp regulates the things I listed above but they don't regulate scripts that encourage behavior that makes Mary Kay look bad? I do not get it. And I am not exaggerating that almost every site accessible to non-password people has this crummy literature on it. If I were still a consultant, this type of crap would tick me off because it makes people hate Mary Kay. It sure made me not like it. I really enjoyed Timewise (2001-2002 formula) and I have not bothered since my last experiences (mentioned in another comment) with Mary Kay were annoying women and deceptive recruiters and consultants.

  68. Great question, Mom. I have wondered that for 7 years now.

  69. Have you asked Corporate that question?

    If yes, what was their answer?

    If no, why not?

  70. speaking the real truthJuly 24, 2008 at 9:21 PM

    Arabella, I am going to try to comment on your posts as I go along.

    First, why do you blame directors for all of the orders that consultants place? The last time that I had a consultant place a $3600 wholesale, she decided that on her own before I could even talk with her about inventory.

    Next, I never said that Mary Kay was the end all. What I said was that if someone was interested in the opportunity and walked away from it due to false information, then that is a loss for her, would you disagree? Don't you think it a loss if someone does not follow through with something that they wanted to do because someone else gave them wrong or untruthful information?

    And about waiting. On this one, I strongly disagree with you. Some clients do mind waiting. I have had clients ask me point blank, up front, if I stock inventory. Then, they tell me the horror stories of having wait for their products from their previous consultants. Do I think that a consultant needs everything in the line, no! I teach my consultants to carry items that women do not want to wait for, like mascara, cleanser/moist., foundation, etc. I also understand that at a party, new customers will wait for their order because they are accustomed to doing so with other home parties, but your regular re-order clientèle are different. If you were out of something like foundation, would you really wait a week? If the consultant were ready to place an order, that would be a good average by the time that she received your order, placed the order, received the order, and then made the delivery. And, as a consultant, she certainly wouldn't want to order just the foundation, the shipping would devour her profit. So, would you not admit that some inventory is wise?

  71. speaking the real truthJuly 24, 2008 at 9:31 PM

    Mom, this may seem like splitting hairs, but I think this is the difference.

    As for the dress code, etc. most of that is recommendation, and is not enforceable except for on stage appearances. However, because they do not want to be publicly embarrassed at MK events, most adhere to the requests of corporate. Face it, break those "guidelines" and everyone knows it, right?

    The advertising, etc. gets into trademark violations, etc. and into legal territory, and that is a different ballgame altogether.

    The company does strongly suggest that we stick to company materials. Also, when they select teachers for company events, they give them a specific outline, and ask them to stick to it. We really are not supposed to put the Mary Kay logo or trademarks on any other documents, and can be pursued for that by the legal department.

    With that said, the company does allow some latitude in the area of training, so that we can effectively work with our consultants. It would not be possible to hire enough personnel to police all of the documents used by the thousands of directors out there. However, if a document is in question, one should submit it to the company for review.

    NSDs and other directors do fall under some special guidelines regarding the sale and distribution of recorded materials, but I have not taken the time to learn all of the details on that, as I am not interested in that at this time.

  72. speaking the real truthJuly 24, 2008 at 9:34 PM

    FYI, I am not big on scripts in the first place. I would rather see a consultant learn key phrases and words that work for her and are comfortable for her rather than memorizing a canned sales pitch. A client can spot that a mile away.

    On another note. If you deceive someone, either by getting them to an event under false pretenses, ordering them the wrong products, giving them info. that you know to be incorrect, you might get a short term benefit, but the long term loss is never worth it. I work to build trust with my consultants, and I had rather have their long term trust and respect than a bigger check next month. The paycheck will come, in more ways than one, and I can feel good about spending it, because they are spending their own paycheck and I have earned mine honestly.

  73. I gotta agree with Your Mom. I rarely ask anyone if they want to try MK. All of my recruits past and present approached me about MK except for one. What I've learned is the people who want to work will work. They don't need much persuasion or motivation. I know I didn't. I wanted to sell MK because it was a product I believe in and can sell in good conscience. My goal is to build a team of others like myself. They are out there. I just have to find them. ;)
    Also, Your Mom, I have 2 team members who both are former consultants. It is rather amazing to me the things their past directors/recruiters told them (or did NOT tell them). One was not told by her former director that qualified status ($600 w/s) can be achieved cumulatively. She emailed me that she was working on her $600 order. I said, that's great! But remember, you don't have to order that all at once. She had no idea!
    My other team member was told by her previous people that she is absolutely not allowed to advertise in any way. I told her that's not true. We can advertise; we just have rules and guidelines to follow and I will help her with that when the time comes. Her director didn't even tell her she could talk to local businesses about doing fishbowls or facial boxes. Not my favorite method, but why withhold it from your consultants???

    Arabella, I am complete agreement with you as far as why argue with pt? I saw that site about 2 years ago and it had a different name. I was disgusted by it. I saw what it was doing. It was deliberately pissing off the MK people and enticing them to send "hate mail" or "hate comments" (if they were really sent by MK people at all) and put them in a bad light. It just made everyone look ugly.

    My blog is just about me and my experience in MK and offering what I feel is good training. I share what I get from my directors and put it out there because I know everyone isn't as lucky as I am to have such ethical, sales focused training available to them. I'm not so into the "blog wars" but this site generally brings good conversation. My blog is to help other consultants and I also refer my customers to it so they can read more about products. I do product reviews and plan to take it in new directions. For me, MK is all about having fun. If it's not fun anymore, I simply won't do it anymore. :P

    On the other hand, I also put my blog out there so that every online search for MK isn't a negative result. It has to be out there so there is some positive info, too. So many people have commented on my blog that they are so excited to see something positive on the web. It's possible to be positive without blatantly bashing other sites ultimately stooping to their level. ;)

  74. I'm not a script person at all. The only thing I have learned from scripts is that maybe I should write down what I want to say to people before I call them so I don't blabber all over myself on the phone.

  75. Speaking, I don't blame directors. But I would assume that the majority of the time the director is guiding the decision of the new IBC. Isn't that what a director does? Directs? I would have a hard time believing that most new recruits are wanting to make huge inventory orders without some prompting. A handful, yes, will want to do their own thing. But most have never been in sales and need as much help with it as possible. The director should discourage large initial orders until the IBC knows who she will be selling to and what will sell.

    As for the waiting for product, a new customer will wait. That is why inventory is not necessary right away. Once you have an established customer base and you are building your inventory, yes have some on hand. By that point you will know what sells and can order accordingly. I just do not see why a new IBC needs to come in with $600 worth or more and has never even held a SCC on her own.

  76. Good morning!! Personally I think that the "over there", they have the intention of bringing Mk down. Now I think that it is personal responsibility that some are lacking. I know that when I signed up with MK. I didn't place my first order for a while like maybe six months. I placed a $600 order, I was not going to order more because I didn't need anymore than that. This all boils don't to taking responsiblity for your own actions.

    I have three recruits that have not order yet and when they ask me where to start I told them to hold classes first and see what the people want. When you receive your starter kit there is enough product in there to do 30 facials. So why not hold a couple of classes and see how that goes. When you are first starting out you tell the ladies that are holding the classes that and that you will be placing an order. That way you don't get as over there states stuck with product that you can't sell. Like I have said before it all boils down to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

    I don't read "other there" any more because to me it does sound like a bunch of bitter ladies that want to bring down a company. What I don't understand is if tc is so against MLM then why does (the last time that I visited) she have those adds on her site. To me that is being double mind.

    Well I hope that everyone has a GREAT MK DAY. The way to put "over there" in there place is to work your business ethically and upright. So if we do that then"other there" is just a bunch of untruths.

  77. I think people will order what they want in the end. My director didn't pressure me to order huge. I ordered based on my comfort level. I had a team member whom I told don't go crazy with inventory. I said it's OK to start small or even with nothing. Know what she did? She went crazy with inventory! Now, she sold most of it in her first year so she was good at selling. She just didn't like doing it and wound up going inactive.

  78. speaking the real truthJuly 25, 2008 at 4:06 PM

    Arabella, I had asked earlier if you would wait a week for foundation if you were out, would you?

    We will just have to disagree on the waiting thing. I think that new clients are the least likely to wait. If I get a website hit from a new client, and email her that I do not have it, what kind of message does that send? My regulars know that even if I do not have it, I will get it ASAP. The newbie has no trust or rapport with me yet. As I said earlier, parties are different, they came there wearing product, so they usually have something at home. What complicates this problem is that women wait until they are OUT to call us!

  79. If the product is worth it, yes, I would wait. If it is better than I could get elsewhere, yes, I would wait. I ran out of BareMinerals and had to wait 14 working days. But I waited because it was worth it.

  80. speaking the real truthJuly 25, 2008 at 8:18 PM

    Arabella, I think that I see why we disagree. You must just look better than me, because I could not go w/o foundation for 14 days unless I missed a lot of outings! I have clients who will not get the mail w/o a full face. Now that isn't me, but I need my products. Good for you that you can go w/o, you must look fab!

  81. hey strt, I am sort of one of those people, but we have moved to a very rural area so I can get my mail and not see a sole, so that's cool, but aside from that now way, hubby will say oh let's just run her, put on a ball cap and some sun glasses you look cute that way, reply "what are you Flipping nuts, - no way hose do I go in public without my mk face - think I have mentioned it before, the ups man is a firm believe in the miracles performed by MK!! He has seen the before and after.

    And I would loose at probably half my clients if they had to wait more than 24-48 hours - and they really appreciate my customer service. i have a whole box full of thank you cards and notes i always save them, I am truly a sentimental mushy sap.

  82. I think it is important that we have this site available and that we are able to discuss/refute what is said "over there".

    My entire unit was recently sent an email that referenced new product. Once opened, the content was about seeing the "real truth" and had a link to "over there".

    No one knows where it came from or the "person" who sent it. We suspect someone somehow hijacked an email. So, "they" were trying to directly impact my business --don't I have a right to respond somewhere?

  83. Hi anonymous,

    Please take a look at ATTENTION ANONYMOUS USERS if you are planning on continuing to post here - and I hope you will. Welcome.

    Also, if you would be so kind, please forward me that email that you received.


  84. A few quick things--

    Wouldn't it be funny if some of the consultants or MK "newbies" on that other site who are complaining about their manipulative, lying directors, were in the units of the ex- or current directors who post over there about their own lying, deceptive practices? Hahahaha. Hope you can understand that statement.
    Also, I recently returned from Seminar, and in one of my classes (for consultants & sr. consultants in MK 0-2 yrs) they taught about different legalities in MK. Of course they covered MK in salons, MK displays, etc., but they also talked about recruiting--the WRONG way to recruit (exaggerations, generalities, etc.) It was really good. MK Corporate knows sometimes consultants are either lying, or misinformed, or just plain confused. That's why they addressed it.
    Another note--I was so relieved to hear our #1 NSD in my division address the economy, and the hard times. Before Seminar, I thought, if they don't mention it, they really are burying their heads in the sand. But the NSD's first speech talked about the economy, and the supposed recession, and it wasn't just rah rah Think Pink, have a positive attitude. There was a little bit of that, but also some other insightful points. She pointed out that many times, we hear or see or notice something, and then look for evidence to back it up. That's so true! She also talked about how many of the top directors and NSDs who have been in MK 20, 30 years, were building their businesses in the late 80s, early 90s, when there was another mild panic in the economy--gas was up, etc. We think it's all something new and use it as an excuse, but we need to have a reality check.
    Anyway, just some interesting things I thought I'd add.

  85. David -- I am the anon from yesterday talking about the email sent to my unit. Unfortunately, I deleted it immediately. But, it was a one-liner saying something to the effect of "... to find out the real truth about the new products you won't find on InTouch, go here (insert was address for PT)." That was it.

    Thanks for the welcome, but I won't be blogging if have to get a username (am paranoid about using my email anywhere after that last one). But, I appreciate the invite and will continue reading your great blog.

  86. It has taken me a few days to read through all of these comments and finally make my way to the bottom of the list. Having personally gone through several phases of feelings about MK I feel that I might have something to add to the conversation. I was recruited by a hotshot who was trying to get her car and do DIQ when she had only been with MK for a month. She started out with a huge investment. Between inventory and section 2 and business accessories such as the rolling bag to put her inventory in her intital investment was around $9000. I came in with an initial inventory of just $200 but within a month had moved up to star status and not because I was selling anything. More about that later. So I started out really excited about MK. I was sure it was going to change my life. Problem being I didnt' manage my money well and I didn't get out there and do the work I needed to do and I was dealing with other things in my life. I blame nobody but myself for the fact that I didnt' make money. I do feel like I was pushed to keep ordering but no one actually forced me into any of it. I typed in the credit card number. Eventually I decided to send all of my inventory back and I became very bitter towards MK. I posted on "that other site" regularly and I fell into negative thinking patterns. The thing is I am a nice person and so I started trying to defend the people there who were being attacked and so I got booted off the site because I wasn't anti-mk enough for them. As a side note it is interesting how they complain that MK doesnt' allow opinions other than theirs to be shared while they are doing the same thing... but thats not my point here. Getting kicked off that site was good for me. So glad it happened because it led me here. I feel now like I am not bitter anymore. I would not recommend MK to someone as a good way to make a steady income. But I also dont' think the company is evil or needs to be sued or shut down. I am convinced that like any other group of people in the world there are good and bad people in the group. Generalizing about an entire group based on the actions of individuals is never helpful for anyone. And, in terms of my feelings toward what they say "over there" my honest opinion is that they have an inflated sense of their own importance in the eyes of MK. They have not left behind who they were in MK, they have simply moved to a different scene. The same hierarchy is still in place. As a psych student I actually kind of find it fascinating. (sorry if that is offensive to anyone)
    Oh and in case anyone was wondering I'm out of MK as is the hotshot who recruited me and our director has stepped down and is now a IBC again.

  87. Welcome praying4courage, glad to have you join us.

    Sorry about your experience but thank you for you candor.

    If you get a chance read back over some of the older posts, there is some really good stuff here, of course we also have some silly and fun stuff too. (Can't be all serious and business-like, ya know!)

  88. Praying4Courage - Welcome and thank you for your honest and insightful sharing. I am sorry you had such a horrible experience - both in MK and on PT. The only thing I can say is that going through tough times will only make you a stronger and better person in the end and it certainly sounds like that has happened for you. I agree with your psychology "read" on what is going on over there in "PT Land". Lemmings going over a cliff (not just hamsters on a wheel) just came to mind (sorry that just slipped out!).

  89. Praying4Courage, I, too, would like to welcome you. I like your psych stuff, I'm not the least bit offended. I don't think anyone here will be offended.

    I'm glad you're here, but most of all I'm glad you've found your, ah, ah-hum, balance. ;)

  90. Hey all, sorry, posts will be coming, things are exploding in a good way!!!

    but praying4courage, I minored in psych too, was my major until my professor told me I would burn out before I ever earned enough money to pay for my schooling, I would burn out and be looking for another career. So that went to a minor and accounting/business went to the major!!

    Love reading pt for the very same reason, studying the thought processes of others.

  91. Anonymous if you are a director and want to share with us Im sure David wont mind if you post anymous or put something like anonymous director....LOL We appreciate your input and you seem like an honest person.

  92. Thanks for your replies to my post.
    Mk4Me- I wonder sometimes if I am going to burn out. I'm working on my BA right now and am planning to get my MSW after this. I was going to go for a PhD or a PsyD but what I want to actually do is more like a MSW's job so that seems to be the direction I'm heading. Hopefully I'll get through it all without burn out!
    LOL we should start a thread for the psychoanalysis (speculation of course) of the PT members ;-)

  93. Hi Jon - You must have inadvertently deleted my other comments. Praying4courage has stated on several other sites that she is schizophrenic, which makes it a little ironic that she's interested in psychoanalyzing others. Please leave my comments up this time, Jon. You always say you're so interested in letting all voices be heard. Let mine be heard too.

  94. LOL,

    I am sure that you are talking to me when you say "jon" because I post as Jon on another site.

    I am sure that it is possible that praying4courage refers to herself as schizophrenic on another site.

    But this is not those sites.

    If you would like to refer to me as "Jon", do so on the site where I refer to myself as "Jon"

    If you would like to comment on praying4courage's schizophrenia, do so on the site where she mentions it.

    All things in context... do you understand?

    I did not "inadvertently" delete your other comments.

    This has nothing to do with "letting all voices be heard".

    This has to do with the fact that you are talking about things that did not originate here, have no business being discussed here, serve no benefit to the conversation we are having here, and so (as far as I am concerned) are nothing more than spam.

    I do not allow spam.

    If you can't understand this, I will simply apologize now, and reassure you that your comments will continue to be deleted.

    Got it?

  95. I'm calling you Jon because that's your name. And if Praying is going to talk about psychoanalyzing people here, then it only seems fair that her psychological issues should be discussed as well. You're all for open communication and letting voices be heard, right? If it's appropriate for her to talk about the psychological status of others, then it would only seem appropriate that her status is to be discussed too.

  96. lol,

    look, there is a difference between saying, "I think the Pink Truth board offers an interesting psychological study" (which could also be said of this site, I think!!) and calling someone a schizophrenic.

    On this site, I am David. On this site, Praying is whatever she has declared. For the purpose of discussion that everyone can follow and benefit from, we "keep it simple".

    I am not sure what else to tell you.

    If you don't let this go, I am going to have to delete all the comments again.

    If she had called someone else schizophrenic, I would have deleted her comment as well.

    If she had said on this site that she was schizophrenic, I would have allowed your comment.

    But as it stands, she did not (on either count) and so her comment stays, yours is deleted.

    Sorry if you feel this is unfair, but I have now spent more time on this than I feel is worth, and I will have to allow you to continue believing me to be partial!

  97. Wow, excuse, me but busy or not, I can't let this fly without putting in my two cents.

    Schizophrenia is a illness, just like, cancer, diabetes, or anything else, treated with medication, it is quite manageable. Having any mental illness does not make someone less of a person. And if you feel it does (than in my opinion) that makes you less of a person.

    I would think that one who has experienced cancer and the said effects of the treatment and how to deal with it would have more to offer than one who has not. Someone with diabetes needs their insulin, it deoesn't make them less of a person. Maybe praying4courage loves pschy because it can help her understand what she has and how to help others.

    Okay, on my soap box here but "LOL", you didn't use that as a description, you used it to be hurtful. You really should hang your head low and be ashamed of yourself. Egads, if you can't play nice here, go post on pt, many will chuckle at your insults, the others won't comment for fear of getting band.

    praying4courage, please don't let a big old meaney run you off.

    Wow, ok "lol" make fun of me too?? I have diagnosed ADHD - wow, take a shot at that one. (PS - doctors say it was never diagnosed as a child because of the high iq I happen to be blessed with, I learned coping mechanisms.

    What's next the children the ride the "short bus"?

    And our host is David Shephard, quite frankly I don't care if he uses another name on another blog, it is still America and he can call himself Cinderella if he so desires. Since you seem all high and mighty, why don't you just post with your real name or the name you use on the other blogs you post on?

    You do not seem to be a very nice person at all.

    Once again this post is my opinion only not fact.

    May I suggest that from an outside very point I could diagnose many on PT as OCD.

  98. Before David has a chance to reprimand me, I am sorry if my above post offends anyone (except lol). When I read her posts, and I managed to catch it before David deleted it, everyone of my buttons was pushed. I wrote fast and hit submit without so much as a second thought. I should have perhaps taken a step back, vented and calmed down, but I didn't and it stands.

  99. lol,

    I would just like to point out, that you can (if you would like) respond to the things that have just been addressed to you.

    I let your comments stand, mk4me has responded, you can (if you care to) respond to the things she has mentioned.

    She has said that she was diagnosed ADHD. That happened here. If you would care to discuss that here, you can.

    She said that she feels you are being mean, if you would like to defend that, you can.

    She is referring to your comments here, her comment is here, so you can talk about it here.

    I hope you see the difference.

  100. David and Mk4Me I appreciate that both of you stood up for me. I do use this screen name on several other sites on the internet and because of that I should know that what I say on one site can follow to another. Because this has come up I am just going to clear the air and be honest with everyone. I am not ashamed to say that I do have a mental illness. My illness is called Schizoaffective Disorder. For those who are not familiar with the term it means that I have a mood disorder (Bipolar Disorder type II) combined with the major aspects of Schizophrenia. Some people may want to jump to considering everything I say and have said to being questionable (best word I could come up with) because there are many who fail to understand mental illness. As a result I am going to tell you a bit more about myself and my disease. Two and a half years ago (age 20) I was very ill and even spent an extended period of time in the hospital. I learned there how to manage my disease. I am 23 now and I am very functional on medication. I am a full time student. I live in the dorms during the school year. I attend a private college with a competitive reputation and I have been deans list every semester. I volunteer with a mental health agency that sends me into county jails to do needs assessments of inmates. I excell in psychology and the mental health field because I know what its like to go through mental illness. I've been there and I've fought my way back. When I tell people about my illness (even people who have known me for a while and have worked with me) they are usually shocked. "Lol" I dont' know who you are but it was a low blow to bring my mental health to to table. However, I am a healthy enough person that I'm not going to leave over it. I'm afraid that you are not going to get the response you want from me. I know who I am and I am not ashamed of myself. I hope you can say the same.

  101. Praying4Courage - you are a real gem of a person. I just read your last post. I want to give you a big hug. I wanted to speak up too and let LOL know that their comments are very unkind. I have struggled with depression for the past four years, thanks to the "perfect storm" - breakup of first marriage, discovering first husband was a real piece of work, and having work performance issues (after being a high performer for years) stemming from being a Type A overachiever perfectionist (always doing, never being). I am finishing up being weaned off Effexor (which can be a real fun time). I also have someone close to me who is manic depressive and will be on medication for the rest of their life. So, LOL (what a name) if you laugh out loud at mental illness, that is really, really sad. I will pray for you. You need to learn compassion for other people. Hope you don't have to learn it the hard way like I did.

  102. One more thing-- you must be really interested in myself and David to spend time searching for message boards that we post on using the same or different names. I can't help but wonder why you would take the time to do that or why we are so fascinating...

  103. Also, for anyone who may be shocked at the idea of being hospitalized for mental illness - I'm sure I was "this close" to being hospitalized myself from being physically and mentally exhausted during {the perfect storm". The person close to me has been hospitalized twice and I know another person through work whose mother recently checked in (at doctor's suggestions) to have her meds adjusted over a few days. I feel our society still has a long way to go over understanding mental illness and just wanted to add some additional comments to this subject.

  104. I hope I dont offend anyone by saying this (oh by the way praying for courage you are brave I commend you for your comments) I used to WISH I had ADD or some type of mental illness (yrs ago) because it seemed like these people were highly successful! I still wish I were a perfectionist I like those types of people. My only quirk if you will is I constantly look in my bag KNOWING whatever Im looking for is there but I still look. I also cant go anywhere without a pen I like to bring pens with me, if I go in the drugstore I have to buy a PILOT fine tip pen, I feel inadequate without one. I love to write maybe thats it. Someone told me a long time ago women with problems make good MK directors (I dont believe that) but I can see how some of that can be true.

  105. Okay, maybe I shouldn't do this, but I'm going to jump in on this one. LOL has offended me on so many levels I can hardly see straight.

    He or she obviously has zero knowledge of the mental health system if he or she simply assumes that all people with mental health issues are disqualified to have opinions on anything. It's people like LOL that perpetuate the stereotypes that exist with mental illnesses.

    MK4ME is right. We don't make fun of cancer survivors or diabetics. But for some reason many people believe that people with mental health challenges are less than human, stupid, lazy, and chronic whiners, to name a few stereotypes.

    In my experience, which is vast, they are none of those things. In fact, some of the greatest minds were also some of the most tortured minds. My experience is vast because when I was a little girl, my mom was diagnosed as bipolar only then it was called "manic depression." And I've helped keep her together since I was about 6 - over 30 years. Today, she's probably closer to Schizoaffective Disorder. She attempted suicide when I was 20, 3 days before my sibling graduated high school. She's been hospitalized numerous times for her psychological issues.

    And I've personally experienced LOTS of discrimination when people learn of my mom's challenges and all I do to help her. She's neither stupid nor lazy. In fact, she's more of a visionary. She can see solutions to problems long before others realize the probles exist. She's also the person you'd want in a crisis.

    Praying4Courage - you don't owe anyone here or anywhere else an explanation, but I congratulate you for sharing your story. I know it's not easy.

    LOL - you owe Praying4Courage a HUGE apology, along with everyone else on this board you offended. And that list seems to keep growing.

  106. People, please learn the rules before commenting here. If you're going to make a comment about the psychological issues about someone, it's only acceptable to do so about Pink Truth members. No comments about anyone else, okay? We only allow poking fun at PT members.

  107. What I see about LOL's comments (and posts and comments from over there") is, well, many things. Just my observations, of course.

    - the sheer hypocrisy. Everyone else has to follow the rules except them. Also, they can be insulting to others but how dare anyone insult them. They don't show compassion but by golly we'd better be showing massive amounts of compassion.

    - bending the rules to suit their desires of the moment. Makes me wonder if this is what so many of the anti-MKers did while in MK. Ok, so it's clear from comments "over there" that this is exactly what they did in MK.

    - In my book insulting one's mental difficulties is just as bad as insulting one's physical difficulties. Maybe even worse.

    - Oh, and here's a biggie! "Outing" people. To bring to this blog something from another blog, as LOL did with Praying4Courage, is OUTING. To use Dave's screen name from another blog here is OUTING.

    - Blog rules. PT has her blog rules and all are expected to follow them. Or be banned. It's all okay for PT to have her blog rules. But, oh boy howdy, how dare any even remotely pro-MK blog have rules and expect it's commenters to abide by those rules! Let me amend that to include any blog and/or blog/group owner that TC (and her PTers) does not approve of.

    LOL should be banned from this blog. Period. Just my opinion, naturally. :)

    I am so sick of the anti-MKers' hypocrisy. Double standard. "Pro-clarity" my foot.

  108. I thought it, Nina, but didn't want to be the one to say it. Bravo!


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