Wednesday, June 25, 2008

Your success in Mary Kay - Who is responsible?

I must warn you that this post is REALLY long. It is so long that I have hidden it behind the 'click here' link. Please, take a deep breath, tell your boss that you have important work to do, take your laptop out to the pool, or whatever you do and then join the discussion!

An absolutely fantastic discussion has begun on another post and I thought it appropriate to address it.

I think that it can be summed up with – should Mary Kay Corporate track actual sales in awarding prizes or should they continue to award prizes based on ordering with the assumption that the orders are based on sales?

The question, in and of itself, is fairly benign. Ask anyone that is involved in any industry that distributes product and you will probably get a response in the order of, “huh… who cares?”

Warning, semi-boring but quite necessary ‘ground work’ to follow – I will isolate it so you can skim.

Typically speaking, any product that you are using will “get to you” by a channel similar to the following. I will use beverages in this case, and specifically the carbonated variety (Soda, Pop, or Coke depending on where you live) and even more specifically, because everyone is familiar with this brand, I will use Coca Cola brands/products.

First, there will be a concept. Someone, for instance, will say, “I have an idea… let’s make a carbonated beverage with lots of sugar and sell it. (Anyone who knows the story of the origins of Coca-Cola will know that it was not that simple, but please understand I am simplifying for illustration sake and will similarly simplify the roots of Mary Kay momentarily.) That person (or those people) will then begin ‘the process’ of bringing their concept to market. As they develop their business model, there will be many steps that overlap each other in many ways. All of these steps should be planned with their end consumer in mind.

They will have to develop the product. They will have to develop packaging for their product. They will need to develop a brand identity for their product. They will need to create a marketing plan for their product. They will need to advertise their product. Advertising and marketing, although similar and often combined are two different components. They will need to create a channel or method of distributing their product. Then, they will need to continuously evaluate and improve on all of those things in an effort to maintain the demand for their product.

Because of the multitude of various options available to a producer of a product, each one will take on a unique strategy that will set it apart as different – maybe better, maybe worse – from everyone/everything else available. Take McDonalds and Burger King for instance. It is rumored (I don’t have any source for this, but it certainly seems possible) that McDonalds spent millions or possibly billions of dollars studying the demographics of every area that they launched a new location to determine the absolute BEST physical location for that store. Burger King’s strategy? Build a Burger King next to (or across the street from) a McDonalds. I say it seems possible because there is almost always a Burger King a stones throw from a McDonalds. (If anyone know whether this is a myth or not, please let me know) I use this illustration, true or not, to demonstrate that everyone will employ different strategies to accomplish the same outcome.

For those of you that were skimming, we are back!

Mary Kay is no different from any other manufacturer in principle.

They have a product.
They manufacture that product.
They create packaging for that product.
They have a clearly developed brand and brand image.

Where they are unique (compared to many of the other products that we are familiar with) is that they combine their advertising, (a majority of their) marketing, and their distribution into one venue. That is, they entrust the distribution and promotion of their product to individual representatives.

National companies that go the route of advertising spend a lot of money on that venture. I mean A LOT of money goes into advertising on a national level.

Again, if you want, you can just skim the following

For instance, Proctor and Gamble spent $4.8 Billion in 2006 and $5.2 Billion in 2007 in the United States alone. Proctor and Gamble (if you are not familiar with that name) is; Olay, Crest, Pantene, Gillette, Cover Girl, Febreze, Swiffer, Tide, Prilosec (otc), Oral-B, Secret, Clairol, Dayquil, Nyquil, Mr. Clean, Duracell, Iams, Head & Shoulders, Pampers, Charmin, Always, Actonel Rx, Bounty, Herbal Essences, Dawn, Old Spice, Tampax, Downy, Vicks, Max Factor, Pur, Folgers, Aussie, Cascade, ThermaCare, Metamucil, Pepto-Bismol, Pringles, Dolce & Gabbana, Braun, Gain, Tag, Puffs, Cheer, Fibersure, Luvs, Bounce and Fixodent – by ‘megabrand’ ordered from most money spent to least. They spent $394 Million on their Olay brand and a comparatively modest $11.3 Million on the Fixodent name.

In 2007, AT&T spent $3.2 Billion and Verizon and GM each spent $3.0 Billion. L’Oreal spent $1.6 Billion.


Mary Kay has chosen to invest (spend if you will) this money on their consultants instead of on TV, Radio, Newspaper, Magazines, etc. Citing (among other things) that they want their product to be demonstrated in a one-on-one setting with the accompanying personal attention to detail, they have for the most part shunned traditional advertising and methods of distribution.

Is anyone still with me? I hope so! Now we can get into the question.

The simple question of whether or not Mary Kay should distribute/market in this manner is not worth discussing, because it IS the way they do it, and any contrary suggestion should be brought up with them.

However, the question of whether Mary Kay should track individual sales (rather than simply inventory orders) boils down to a more direct and accusatory question. Who is responsible when a consultant loses money?

One point of view is very keenly summed up by commentator ‘Enesvy’ (previously known as ‘Black Nova’

My issue is more human. I see MKC as a bus. They built the bus, they maintain the bus, they even provide drivers. People board the bus believing it to be safe and trusting those who introduce them to it and convince them to get on. Naive? Yes. But I can't fault anyone for not being a complete cynic and believing what somone with supposed experience in riding and/or driving that bus has to say. So when that bus is in an accident because it's not well-built, it has flaws, people riding it get hurt. My point of view is that MKC should be doing everything it can to ensure that their IBCs aren't hurt by their business model.

The other point of view – expressed by me… composed ‘just now’ is

There is nothing wrong with the bus. There is adequate training and information available to potential drivers. Potential drivers are ‘tested’ before being allowed to drive. The problem comes when a driver decides that she has thought of an excellent shortcut or ignores her training and starts speeding and cutting corners. Mary Kay Corporate, upon discovering such renegade drivers will implement disciplinary action, but just like the police here in Los Angeles (God bless them, they have a hard job), they WILL NOT get everyone that breaks the law. Many people have been badly injured and even killed on the streets of L.A. IF the LAPD and CHP could do a perfect job of policing this city, that number would be drastically reduced (or hypothetically eliminated entirely). IF Mary Kay could be everywhere at all times and hear every presentation, they would similarly meet (or come close to) the standard of perfection where no one is ever hurt.

As you have hopefully picked up from this, there are a lot of variables, and it is easy to get distracted by one element or another.

But this conversation is very important to have, so let us establish what this discussion is about, and what it is not about.

Let us assume for this conversation that Mary Kay Corporate is NOT out to get consultants. Evil as they may seem to some, it is illogical to assume that a corporation would exist simply to torment and ruin the lives of thousands of women.

Further, let us understand that, like it or not, they ARE a business. They are not a non-profit organization. Their primary purpose and reason for existence is to make money. This is NOT a bad thing. It also does not contradict their goal of enriching women’s lives. However, they are not here to just GIVE money away. If you want a piece of this pie, you are going to have to earn it. Please notice that I did not say you are going to have to work hard for it. I could sign up for Mary Kay and then go in my back yard and dig holes all day and night for years (hard work for sure – right!) and still not EARN anything.

The question here, is, “Who is responsible for the wreckage?”

From one direction, you have the ‘personal responsibility’ crowd. No matter how tantalizing something looks, no matter how much you trust someone that is suggesting something to you, no matter how influential and convincing someone is, you should always evaluate whether or not it is a good match for you. “I trust everyone. It's the devil inside them I don't trust.”

From the other direction, you have the ‘corporate responsibility’ crowd. Mary Kay is making a lot of money. If even one person loses money so that they can line their pockets (the rich get richer while the poor get poorer) with MORE money, they should be ashamed of themselves and do everything they can to make it right.

A philosophical discussion to be sure.

I can predict right now that the majority of those claiming ‘personal responsibility’ will be well adjusted within the Mary Kay structure while those claiming ‘corporate responsibility’ will be those that (at best) did not do well with Mary Kay.

Although I am sure that it is quite clear which ‘side of the isle*’ I am on, I will leave the question open ended for now.

*I know that ‘aisle’ is the correct word here, but I wish I were on a beautiful island right now – so I felt it appropriate to express my view as a ‘side’ of the ‘isle’ that I am on in my mind!

Where do YOU stand?


  1. I think MKC could do more to police the work force. I know no one wants to be policed but if there is this rampant problem, fix it. I think MKC should know more about their directors. How hard would it be to talk to IBCs who come in with huge initial orders. And can't they monitor initial orders and step up when they see that the majority of that order is stuff about to be changed, discontinued, limitied, etc. That is where a lot of problems lay.

    Personal responsibility has to be acknowledged. Directors who are master manipulators have to be acknowledged, also.

    As for the churn and burn theory. I've seen that in my unit. My director spoke openly about having to replace 2/3 of her unit every quarter. She knew statistically that they would not be there in a couple of months, yet she still encouraged large initial orders.

  2. hi disallusioned, (same as disallusioned with MK? or different?)

    I want to establish a few things based on your comment for everyone that is going to join this conversation. I am not picking on you, but I am making an example of your comment.

    First, you say, "...but if there is this rampant problem..." I have still not seen or heard any evidence that any of the problems cited here or elsewhere are rampant.

    As to the difficulty or necessity of initial orders being monitored, that is good material for this discussion, but I will let others speak to that.

    Regarding 'churn and burn', we all need to make a distinction between normal turnover and the intentional manipulation that is associated with a phrase like 'churn and burn'

    Mary Kay can't be compared to a normal 9-5 (in terms of turnover rates) because no one is receiving a regular paycheck.

    I won't get into it now, but to illustrate, it would be like saying that the sellers of exercise equipment intentionally sell to people that they know WONT exercise so that they can get duplicate business when they come out with a new version of their old equipment.

    A lot of the 'need to replace 2/3 of a unit' is just that some people never 'take' and, although they were not churned and burned, they say, "thanks for the opportunity, I am not interested".

    That is the nature of sales. Imagine if YOU (the recruiter) GAVE the starter kit to anyone that wanted to try and then had to track them down to collect it from them when they decided they weren't interested in selling!

    Some wont even mail it in to get their 90% back.

  3. Wow, Dave, you have patience I don't have. This will be a quick one and then I will have to study it more but first two no three thoughts...

    The bus might be safe, the driver might be safe, but someone else could still hit the bus. People could still be hurt even if all the conditions with the bus were perfect because there are other outside influences. We don't live in a vacuum and that works both ways.

    I have heard of MK Corp, counseling both directors or Nationals when heard misquoting stuff. I think the problem comes in with the fact, we live in the US, as citizens we are entitled to free speech, if what a National is saying is what she believes and it is not against the "rules" of the Company, imho, they don't have the right to tell her not to feel the way she feels. I am a spiritual person but I am not a "preachy" person, if a director is at the podium and it turns into a sermon versus a talk, I simply (and quitely) remove myself from the room. Period, I don't care if it is at Seminar, Career Conference, etc... I have free choice, if I choice to not listen I don't have to.

    As far as asking the consultants in her unit, it will be a she said/she said thing. Let's face it, there are going to be personality conflicts, and as women, one day we can like each other and the other day we can hate each other. So how reliable would that information be? Right now I bet if you polled my unit, most of them would love my, some would be indifferent and I have one that wishes I would die. (I had to tell her to stop taking other consultants clients and just mention to her to ask first if they have a consultant before you offer them a discount and do not sell stuff at a flea market.) I did say it nicely but now I am evil.

  4. Ooops third point,

    churn n' burn - this term really irks me. Yes, there is turnover, there is turnover in any career, shoot, every time I go to my bank, there is a new teller. I don't think that the one's that left are lazy lousers, I don't think they are stupid, I just think they didn't like it and moved on.

    I have consultants that join, and think they are going to do something, never order inventory and they are going, ok they paid for the starter kit, but ended up with $323 of retail product. Didn't go any further, some are still clients they just didn't really want to do anything or life happened. That is not churning and buringing through people.

    Some people come in, try it for awhile and find they don't care for it. As I have often stated, my consultants don't care massive inventories so most just have a going out of business sale and that is that, many once again remain clients of myself or their recruiters.

    I have to admit, I have never (ok, I am knocking on wood right now) had a consultant that come in with a large inventory kept ordering and ordering and then got feed up, into much debt and sent back product and quit.

    I have had consultants in my unit since before I became a director. The majority of my unit is at least a few years old, we really aren't a big recruiting unit. We truly focus on sales.

    So even though my numbers stay pretty consistant, would you say that what happens in my unit is churn and burn?? I don't think so, it is just turnover.

  5. Wow, David! Great post! :) And I’d like to be on any side of the “isle” right now, myself. Sipping a pina colada, preferably.

    As for the “aisle,” I think we know which side I stand on. ;) However, let me say this. I take full responsibility for my experience with MKC. I invested money I shouldn’t have because I thought it sounded like a great opportunity and my director convinced me that if I didn’t have inventory, I wasn’t going to do well. She said that women wouldn’t want to buy from me if they had to wait for stuff--didn’t I want to be successful? So, I had a poor bus driver. But am I supposed to know that? Especially when the MK website supported everything she said? I should never have invested that money. Why didn’t she encourage me to not invest, to give it a try with just a few things? Terrible bus driver. I just figured that she knew what she was talking about—she was quoting Mary Kay for heaven’s sake! Yes, it's my responsibility, but I often rely on professionals (my plumber, my coworkers, my real estate agent) to provide me with insight that I can't possibly have. You can't fault women for trusting the MK Prosa and their advice.

    That said, here is where I differ in that I don’t think the bus is well built. And thanks for your allowing me to use that analogy. :) The product is fine. I don’t consider that the bus. It’s the business model that bothers me. This goes for ANY direct selling business. The rewards in MK (or any direct seller) are monetary as well as emotional. The rewards encourage bad bus driving. Praise is a powerful motivator. We all want to be liked. So in MK you are rewarded with money and praise for buying wholesale. I mean, honestly, as much as great directors like mk4me reward actual sales, I was given praise for my initial order and I hadn’t sold anything yet! I got to attend a special dessert social for top sellers and I remember thinking, “What the…?” But I was trying to fit in and get to know people, so I went.

    The ability to purchase your rewards without documented sales is what I think encourages a ton of abuse. So many women climbing that ladder are so needy for attention and praise that they’ll do anything to get it, including being indifferent to the finacial wreckage of women they recruit. That is the part of the bus (the MK business model) that I think is broken and caters to the darker side of human nature. mk4me, since I was referring to the Direct Selling model as the bus, I'm not sure how an outside influence would manifest...unless you're talking about the company going bankrupt or something.

    A quick response to David’s comment about no evidence of churn being rampant, Mary Kay reported to the FTC that their consultant turnover rate is 68.6% ( It’s even higher in Canada. That’s a lot of turnover for something that’s supposed to be enriching all those women’s lives. None of them signed up to fail. And the women who recruited them lose money and recognition when this turnover happens. When those are your goals, it makes you want to recruit more: to get more money and recognition. These are the women, the bad drivers, who have created an environment for a blog like PT to flourish.

  6. Enesvy,

    Thanks - I'll have a mojito!

    I would like to point out that your argument here (the emotional side of the equation) is probably one of the best available, and yet runs very contrary to the 'women are equal to men' movement that, arguably, Mary Kay Ash herself was pivotal in perpetuating.

    It is difficult for me (as a guy) to lend much sympathy to reasoning such as, "It just felt so good to be recognized that I kept ordering". Yet, I know from interacting with my wife how incredibly different we (she and I) are in terms of what motivates and drives us.

    To me this looks like this.

    Mary Kay Ash (MKA) said: I believe that women can set aside their emotional responses and take responsibility for themselves and their finances to the extent that they can operate their own business.

    Women everywhere said: MKA is right, we can do this.

    Some of those women started using the very emotions that MKA sought to set aside to manipulate other women to join in and essentially enriched their own lives on the emotions of other women.

    The women who were manipulated are now crying foul, claiming that emotions can't be set aside.

    (food for thought)

    On the rampant churning.

    Again, this is a matter of definition.

    TURNOVER the rate of people joining and quitting IS high. It will naturally be that way. Like the number of people that buy exercise equipment and never use it. Like the people that buy a coupon book for the money savings but never cut out a single coupon. It is basically a $100 mistake. We don't have any information about how much those 68% SPENT, how much they SOLD, or if their net result was a loss, gain, or break even. I can't assume that they were all minimal losses, and you can't assume they were all life changing losses.

    It is just a statistic that says 68% joined and quit.

    CHURNING is (at least as I understand it) people that are INTENTIONALLY saddled with HUGE inventories, MANIPULATED into ordering, ordering, ordering and then when their resources are exhausted, they are dropped like a bad habit.

    THAT definition of churning has NO evidence of being rampant. In fact of the stories about this kind of devastating loss in Mary Kay, few of have ever been questioned or challenged. (This is one of my primary problems with Pink Truth - Mary Kay = Evil; anyone that says anything bad about Mary Kay = Truth Teller)

    We never really here the, "well my director told me not to order until I had sold what I had, but I just HAD TO HAVE that prize" because it does not 'help' Pink Truth's case.

    That is what I meant by no proof of a rampant problem.

    I saw that PT has a post about the 99% thing AGAIN today... Hopefully I can put together a post about that soon... another serious problem I have with their logic!

  7. Good stuff, David. :) I do think women and men are very different even while being equal. And when I say emotional, I'm not referring to being all weepy and such. I'm just considering a person's emotions. Myself, I'm in a play right now and just a few minutes ago, someone came up and gave me huge compliments on the role I played. Boy, did that leave me feeling good! I can tell you, I will bust my butt this weekend, and all six of our final shows to make sure I give my finest performance. Because I know it's appreciated. That's emotional and wonderful. Now, this doesn't mean I have to hear that all the time; I act because I'm passionate about acting and the theater. But for people (men and women) who don't have a solid support system of love around them, the emotional support of MK sisters is a powerful motivator.

    I think I just regurgitated what I said before! Anyway. ;)

    I understand your point and find it valid that there's no way to know how much of the 68% turnover is positive vs. negative experience. I just think it's really high when the "opportunity" is touted as so totally awesome for everybody and their sister. Clearly, with that kind of turnover, it's not.

    Hey, you all, I really do appreciate you. :) I think you live up to your name as really wanting to provide balance and listening to all points of view.

  8. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus - was written for a reason. :)

    If there were more men in direct sales, I bet the turnover rate would be way down.

    It isn't easy but most women need to separate thinking with our head and thinking with our heart when it comes to a business decision.

    Maybe because I was never a girlie girl and all my friends were always guys, and my poor dad had 4 daughters and no sons, I became "his son" - total tomboy all my life, I don't think they way most females do.

    My hubby laughs and says Men may be from Mars and women may be from Venus but mk4me, I swear, I think you are from Pluto!!

    And I have never seen someone who decides not to continue with Mary kay as a failure, they tried it, didn't like it and moved on. Just personal choice. Not lazy, not stupid, not a looser, just didn't want to do it, hey that's cool.

  9. Your hubby calls you MK4ME? How strange. ;)

    Just kidding.

    I will post more when I get the chance.

  10. darci consultantJune 26, 2008 at 5:19 PM

    Ok, I'm going to admit right now that I didn't have patience to thoroughly read the entire post. But I did skim it all and read most of it.

    I have a few thoughts . . .

    1. Can MK require us to turn in our sales? I mean, per FTC rules, are they allowed?

    2. For the sake of argument, if they are allowed to review our sales, how would we prove that? Via Weekly Accomplishment Sheets? Via Sales Tickets? What a logistical nightmare for them. And who's to say people STILL wouldn't lie and submit false WAS or sales tickets?

    3. Again, assuming MK could review our sales, in order to prevent falsifying sales tickets or WAS, would MK have to disallow us to carry inventory and then have us place an order to them each time we sold an eye brow pencil, thus increasing the time before our clients receive their product?

    If #3 came to fruition (NOTE: I'm not saying it will, I'm saying if this was the only way for MK to track our real sales), I would send back all my inventory and be done with MK. At that point, it's not my business anymore that I have control over. And frankly, my clients would go buy their stuff at the drug store. No one wants to wait 2 weeks for a lipstick or cleanser. Maybe they'll wait for other types of direct sales items, like baskets or candles, but it's completely not the same.

    Also, from what I know about other companies (basket and candles and jewelry) that are direct sales, those consultants don't have inventory, clients have to wait a long time for product, hostesses have to deliver the products (ick!), there's the fun added expense of shipping to every purchase, there is no flexibility with hostess plans, AND the consultant makes 25% GROSS commission.

    Now, of course, we don't really make the full 50% commission we talk about. It's 50% GROSS commission and if you manage your money well, you can net upwards of 35%.

    I'm fully on the side of personal responsibility. And that starts with when someone is being recruited. The recruiter has the personal responsibility of being 100% truthful with her potential recruit. Is she using the product? Does she love it? Has she been a hostess? Did her friends love it? Do you honestly like her? If you don't, she could make your life hell. If the potential recruit signs up, there's going to be a long-term relationship here. And if the recruiter screws over the recruit, that recruit is gonna talk (see PT).

    The potential recruit has some personal responsibility too. As a potential recruit, are you using the product? Do you love it? Have you been a hostess? Did your friends love it? Do you really like the woman who is trying to recruit you? If not (and I know this is going to be controversial), sign up w/ someone else. Research MK. Go to some MK events. I didn't say 1 - I said some. Ask LOTS of questions. Be honest with yourself. Did you feel like your questions were being evaded? Why are you thinking about joining? Because it sounds like fun and you need approval or because you want to run a business? Read over the agreement thoroughly, even if you do it online. Print out the terms and conditions.

    For recruits, you have responsibility too. Talk to your recruiter and director. Be honest with them. Return their phone calls. If you get scared, it's ok, but talk to them. Go to training and meetings. Know your rights as a consultant to return product, about being active, inactive, terminated, etc.

    I could go on.

    But my point is just that responsibility is a two-way street.

  11. speaking the real truthJune 26, 2008 at 5:56 PM

    Darci, the question has been asked several times as to how sales could be tracked and we've pointed out that if someone will order to win a prize, they surely would report false sales to win one.

    If MK Corp. gets into policing the sales force, or they cut into prizes and recognition, that hurts me. Extra paper work, etc., and if they cut out prizes, I am likely to not get the prizes/recognition that I earn and deserve. So, who is hurt there?

    Disallusioned, the fact that your director encouraged large orders may the part of the reason that she had such a high turnover rate. This Seminar year we have added less than 25 new unit members, and only half have come in or built to qualified. (sidebar-I am suspicious when someone adds 25 people and 24 are qualified.) Yet we are a Circle of Achievement Unit, and I hover at around 80-85 unit members. I have a seasoned, selling, unit. That is what directors need to strive for. Those who should be directors (leaders) will naturally rise up in a unit like that. They will be ready and strong, with their own steady customer base.

    I harp on sales and reward sales AND effort, not ordering. Rarely do I offer anything for just ordering. I think that rewarding effort and activity is important, as it will produce results and it trains the consultants on the right ways to work their businesses.

  12. MK4ME said, "Maybe because I was never a girlie girl and all my friends were always guys, and my poor dad had 4 daughters and no sons, I became "his son" - total tomboy all my life, I don't think they way most females do."

    LOL! I was never a girlie girl either! I collected bugs, played in the dirt, caught frogs and snakes, and liked Matchbox cars--all while wearing a frilly little dress looking all the part of a priss who would run screaming from a mouse. On the other hand, I loved girlie toys, too. I just had a mix.

    In college I took a "test" in my psychology class. The questions were based on how we react to certain emotions and what our interests are. Then we scored them. I believe -1 to -5 reflected a more "masculine" stereotypical personality while scoring 1-5 reflected a more "feminine" stereotypical personality. The closer to zero your scored, the more androgynous you were meaning you were balanced. Wouldn't you know it, I scored zero! My prof said that's like winning the lottery!

    But I digress. David pretty much said what I would say. That 68% is just a number with no examples. It doesn't say how many sold stuff back. It doesn't say how many were directors or consultants or drove free. It doesn't tell us if they all ordered inventory.

    I suspect 68% is how many end up either selling back or going to a terminated status by simply not ordering in a year. And of course, 68% doesn't say if any of them sign up again later. I know a few people who weren't happy in their units and terminated so they could sign with someone else. They don't dislike MK. They disliked their upline.

    As far as who is responsible for my success in MK? I AM! I can go ask my director for help and she can give me advice and I can take it or leave it. Has she given me advice that I didn't agree with? She sure has. In those instances, I went with my own gut and tried my own thing. Have I tried something she suggested and had it not work? Yes. Is that her fault? No. Is it mine? No. It just didn't work for me. It's trial and error.

    Does recognition feel good? It sure does! Especially when it's deserved!

  13. Darci - the only way for MK to absolutely know for sure that a retail sale was made to a customer would be for MK to get the customer's name and credit card info with the order, charge the customer's card and then ship the order to the consultant or customer. In that case, the consultant would have to criminally submit the customer's credit card info in order place a fraudulent order.

    I think that requiring customers to wait a week for their order (and probably pay shipping) would kill the business. I personally handle most of the reorders from my wife's customers. I've lost count of the number of times that a customer has called at the last minute.

    David - you are very correct about some consultants who do nothing with their $100 showcase. Just like there are people who buy $100 shoes, wear them once, and then discover that the shoes hurt when worn for more than 2 minutes. They can't return worn shoes to the store. Do these people then consider that the shoe salesman was "churning & burning" his customers, even if he was so complimentary and gushing, "you look fabulous, my dear." No, they look in the mirror and say, "what was I thinking when I bought these shoes?" And then buy another pair next week/month from Luigi, because he is so gracious and brings her a free coffee and cookie while she is browsing the racks.

    An interesting note about the cost of the starter kit. A few years ago, MK ran a half-price Starter Kit promotion. Yes, there were lots of new recruits in my wife's unit, but the "do nothing" rate went way up. I think that a lot of these people saw the $50 kit price as a great deal to get the product that came in the kit, and had no intention of selling MK. I'm also sure that some of these new consultants were customers who were told by their recruiters to "just sign up, it's only $50, and you'll see if you like it or not." I have no way of knowing how many of these people returned their kits. (BTW, the 90% buyback is for wholesale product. MK will refund the $100 plus tax of an unused Starter Kit.

  14. I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but the statement is made by the anti-MK people that it is unfair for MK Corp to chargeback commissions when a consultant returns product to the Company.

    Let's examine what the effect would be if there were no chargebacks. In other words, a consultant returns product to the Company and the recruiter/Director keeps the commission.

    In this scenario, you have tremendous incentive for fraud. A person could recruit people who then place orders with the intention of returning the product as soon as the recruiter has received the commission. The recruiter then splits the commission with the former team member. The only limiter on this fraud is that MK will not allow a consultant who returns product to rejoin the sales force, so the recruiter has to find new shills. This fraud is very similar to a staged accident insurance scam.

    The only way to prevent chargebacks would be for MK not to pay commissions until 1 year after the consultant places the order. This way, the recruiter/Director recieves commission on product that cannot be returned (over the 1 yr window). A big complication that I see with this idea is with the status of the recruiter/Director. It would require more time/effort than I want to expend on a "What if" exercise. Example: what if the recruiter is inactive, terminated or has returned product herself when the 1 year commission is due to be paid to her? What if the former recruiter has moved and not updated her address with MK? How long does MK have to keep the commission in escrow? Etc ...

    Of course, these "what if's" ignore the effect of commissions as a sales force incentive. How would waiting a year to receive a commission affect that?

  15. I have to come back to finish this long (very interesting) thread. But I can't leave without first posting what screamed out at me as I read about product creation/positioning/channel distribution/marketing.

    McDonald's does not sell hamburgers to people to peddle on the street -- like Dicky Dee does with ice cream.

    The difference for me is, contrary to McDonald's selling hamburgers to the market, a market that witnesses hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising world wide, every day, in order to get you to COME TO THEM to purchase their sandwich, in my mind's eye, Mary Kay is the Dicky Dee of the cosmetic industry. They share the same product to market concept on the same scale.

    Dicky Dee has warehouses of ice cream. Associates purchase their inventory and then have to peddle their ice cream from a wagon. Like the Mary Kay consultant, The Dicky Dee ice cream guy gets to advertise his product throughout his immediate vicinity with a bell (the analogy being that the cost of advertising is comparable). He has no idea who else is riding a Dicky Dee wagon, but he sees the grocery stores and corner stores and knows that's who he's competing with.

    That's how I felt. Like Dicky Dee. Sadly people weren't as happy to see or hear from me.

  16. Okay, I skimmed the rest of the thread (not the responses)... to carry on in the same vein as David...

    If the Dicky Dee guy rips people off, or worse is predatory, is Dicky Dee the company responsible?

    I guess that point is still moot (debatable). We could debate whether Dicky Dee needs to screen their reps better, blah, blah, blah... Or we could just look at the fallout of a "bad" Dicky Dee rep.

    People in the vicinity will not shop from the Dicky Dee man. They will go to the corner store or to the grocery store to buy their ice cream.

    That's the point. It costs a ton of time and money to win just a handful of customers. You don't want to lose them with negative experiences, etc. because, in short you won't get them back.

    Therein lies the point. Well my point anyway. It costs Mary Kay (ultimately the company) too much revenue to NOT deal with the predatory type front loading, etc., etc. It's bad enough when you have a handful of p.o.'d women who've been ripped off in your immediate vicinity. They each tell two friends and they tell two friends and so on and so on... (remember that commercial?) But now you have the internet to help spread the (negative) message.

    As for the bus.. many people don't take public transportation because because they don't want to get hurt. As in, the public transportation system has lost revenue and thus the loss is picked up on your tax bill.

    Not that the public is paying for Mary Kay's (and by extension sales force's losses). I was simply referring to consequence of inaction by a corporate entity to taking care of business.

  17. Good analogy, flybye64. :)

    I just had a friend email-invite me to a CABI party and I respectfully emailed back that I appreciate the invite but as a rule will not attend/support the direct selling industry. I told her I loved that I was part of her circle of friends and she responded graciously. But because of my MK experience, I will not give money to any direct selling company.

    Regarding the emotional level that a few posters here have said should not be involved in deciding to buy wholesale and open an MK business: are not all IBCs and directors who want to recruit trained on overcoming objections? What is an attempt to overcome objections but a play on emotion and the inability to take the first No for an answer? Why are there even scripts to this effect if not to manipulate women into signing up and buying inventory? Why can't recruiters and directors asking for an initial wholesale purchase take that first No for an answer and go on their happy way?

    I know you will say, "Well, that person should just keep saying no." Quite frankly, it's abusive to keep pushing someone to sign/buy when they've already said No once.

    And I do speak from experience on this one. My director, though I told her I couldn't afford to buy inventory without going into debt, kept pushing and telling me how I wouldn't be a success without it. How she would be there to help me sell it (that didn't happen). She was the professional, the successful MK director. I believed her. If you want to call me a rube for that, go ahead. I prefer to think of myself as trusting and human. That director has made me a less trusting person. You decide whether that's a good image for Mary Kay or not.

    The truth is, if she hadn't kept pushing when I said No the first time, I wouldn't have bought inventory. Because my first answer to her was No. Is she not at least 50% culpable? 30%? Or are the personal-responsibility proponents just cold on that issue?

  18. Commission payback:

    Just a brief comment about this. I understand, and agree somewhat that the commissions should be paid back if the recruit exercises her 90% buy-back. On the other hand, the commission is paid to a leader (whatever level) not just as a bonus for volume sold by her unit, but for her ability and dedication/motivation in order to do so. She's being paid to lead and the commission is part and partial of that.

    I think if somebody is doing her job (leading, motivating and training) and she's absorbing all the associated costs in order to do so (that is the intent of commissions isn't it? Not entirely but partially) then I don't think that it's fair, one year later, that 100% of her commissions are clawed back because they are attached, in their entirety, to the inventory purchased by her team member.

    I think it would be more fair if they either made it that 75% (??) be clawed back as opposed to the entire amount. That way, at least Corporate acknowledges the director's attempt to bring her recruit along, and the whole cost of doing so isn't picked up by the director FOR FREE to them.

    Corporate still hangs onto 10% of the initial purchase. How come the director's entitlement is 0%?

    That's my beef.


    Adversity can be one of God’s most effective signals of a need to change course.

    I invite you all, particularly as this month of June draws to an end, to ask for an extra dose of discernment. A decision to take a break for a while doesn’t mean you’re a loser, a quitter, a negative nellie, or you “can’t hang.” Is there a possibility your “deserve level” is actually telling you that you deserve a break from MK? Ultimately, it could be a reaffirmation of your initial decision to pursue the Mary Kay Cosmetics dream. Consider, at least for a moment, allowing yourself to take a break. Give yourself a month, maybe two. Two months of no MK meetings, no hype, no reading the literature, no listening to the “training” tapes, etc. Skip the recorded conference calls, put the uniform in the back of the closet, and hide the pins in the bottom of the jewelry box.

    Visit family and friends without even bringing up the topic of Mary Kay Cosmetics (my bet is they won’t either). Go shopping w/o looking for “sharp looking” women. View this as an “awesome” and “amazing” opportunity to be genuine, to be spontaneous. Revisit the pleasure of uncanned communications with other women.

    Relax. It’s OK. Consider stepping out. Consider the possibilities. You too can be real. You can do it if you really want it.

    Good luck.


  20. Er...this commercial break from the discussion brought to you by Deleted! Now, back to your previously scheduled discussion already in progress. ;)

  21. Just a quick 'broad stroke' "hi" to everyone... hopefully more to follow.

    First of all Enesvy, HA!! (commercial break!!!!) You have great comedic timing!! (on the internet, punchlines can be delivered an hour later and, so long as no one has commented in between, still be "spot on"!! Great job!

    Ok, I have to make this quick,


    I think Dicky Dee (although I am not familiar with them) is a near perfect comparison. Dicky Dee, like Mary Kay, is what it is. Cheaper buy in than a Kroger/Ralphs/Shop-Rite/Vons (or whatever you have by you), but certainly not a "powerhouse" mega-million franchise.

    Your point,

    "It costs Mary Kay (ultimately the company) too much revenue to NOT deal with the predatory type front loading, etc., etc."

    is exactly my point as well.

    People seem to think that Mary Kay is intentionally NOT dealing with problems, when really, it is not logical for them to NOT deal with them. It is because of this (and stories of MKC taking action when they have evidence of abuse) that I am constantly asking, "what evidence do people have that Mary Kay is NOT doing something about it?" The fact that they did not punish YOUR individual director/recruiter when you complained (more accurately stated, "you did not observe them...") does not mean that they WONT do it when they have "enough" evidence or that they are not actively attempting to correct problems like this.

    Regarding the commission thing, that (the partial return of commission) may be a good idea. Personally, I am of the belief that the commission is being paid in advance, based on the assumption of an actual (eventual) sale, and thus should be FULLY refunded. It is not a bonus for the activity of recruiting and pressuring orders, it is because your SALES team is making SALES. If it turns out they are not making SALES, you don't deserve any of that commission. Still, whatever MKC gets out of that 10% they keep (shipping, processing, or whatever) might be deemed as something the director ought to receive back as well.


    Your point about the emotional factor can be applied to ALL sales situations and MOST people here (as well as MOST 'good' sales people in general) will ABSOLUTELY 100% agree with you that these tactics are WRONG. Regarding you being a 'rube', it really comes down to why you trusted that person, and what you are doing to protect yourself from trusting an untrustworthy person again. If I want to buy a new car, I HAVE to deal with a car salesman. Some will do ANYthing to get me to buy THEIR car, (and usually the one that makes them the most money) others will want me to find the best deal for ME. It is often impossible to discern the difference. The fact that SOME car salesmen are dirty, sleazy cheats, does not mean they all are. Same with auto mechanics, lawyers, and even Mary Kay Reps.

    The point here being, what you are pointing out as "bad" is/are things that we also feel are "bad". Our primary arguments HERE are not that those things are ok, but 1. they are not as rampant as some would lead you to believe and 2. they are not condoned, promoted, or ignored by Mary Kay Corporate. As Flybye pointed out, it does not make sense (from a business stance) for MKC to allow that to be the standard operating procedure (S.O.P.)


    Since you are going to go down the road of invoking God and His will/direction, I will respond in kind.

    You say,

    "Adversity can be one of God’s most effective signals of a need to change course."

    That may be (and sometimes is) true, BUT (and this is a REALLY big but) I thank God daily that when Jesus faced adversity (his decision whether or not to die on the cross for the forgiveness of my sin) he did not perceive that as a 'most effective signal of a need to change course'. I'm just sayin'

    Having said that, I agree (believe it or not) with you to a degree. If someone is feeling like Mary Kay may not be a good match for them. If someone feels discouraged all week and only gets excited about Mary Kay when they are at meeting or on conference call, it may be time to take a hiatus. Nothing wrong at all with taking a step back and reevaluating any situation in life.

    After all, there is life outside of Mary Kay!!

    ...coming up next, "Is big oil really behind the price at the pump and is global warming just a scam to get money out of your pockets?", but now back to your regularly scheduled "is Mary Kay good or bad" discussion.

  22. Why does MK Corp "hold back" 10% of the whsl value of product returned by a consultant?

    I think the obvious answer is that 10% is the manufacturing/administration costs, exclusive of commissions paid. Of course, I know that some people will debate whether that amount is too high, but I think that it is reasonable that the manufacturing/administrative costs are 5% of the MSRP.

    MK Ash for years was very clear that directors should not be spending more that 5% of their commissions on prizes/gifts for consultants. She did not want directors to be in competition with the company promotions.

  23. Thanks mkhonesty, I wanted to comment in that direction, but it is out of my 'field' of knowledge, so I didn't want to make numbers up and didn't have time to look into it.

  24. Good points, David. :) Although I do still believe that "not taking no for an answer" is standard practice when recruiting. But it is impossible to know for sure. As you've stated, it's the squeaky wheels that get heard and for those for whom their MK business is just hunky dory, there's no squeakin'.

    As for Global Warming, hey, if the Earth wants a tan, who is the human race to tell it no?

  25. mkhonesty quote:
    MK Ash for years was very clear that directors should not be spending more that 5% of their commissions on prizes/gifts for consultants. She did not want directors to be in competition with the company promotions.

    So if Mary Kay Ash recognizes the cost of a director doing her job is not to exceed 5%, shouldn't she be entitled to keep that?

    Whatever. Overhead is overhead. Admin costs are admin costs be them spent at head office or in a director's office. Apparently, though, time is not free except when you "work" for Mary Kay.

  26. For you, Dave


  27. Enesvy,

    I like your sense of humor, I think the ones 'concerned' about global warming fell that the earth does NOT want a tan though...

    "don't take no for an answer" is an robust subject.

    If you lived near me, and you offered to drive me to the airport, I might offer to give you $5 for gas (now it would be more like $10 with gas prices, but you get the idea). You might say, "no, I can't except that, I am doing you a favor" and I might say, "I WONT take 'no' for an answer.

    If I invented a new ice-cream that I promised you tasted better than anything you have ever tried, cost less than anything you ever bought, and was VERY healthy for you, you may be skeptical. (understandably!) If I was so sure that if you would just try it that you would love it, I might plead with you, "Please... just try it".

    When you want someone to try something, you often must overcome objections. There are two 'lines' that should not be crossed. Both are near impossible to define.

    1. Is your motivation to offer something that is really good for the person? (obviously you will profit in some way as well, but are you abusing them to get what you want or are you offering something mutually beneficial?)

    2. The ends do NOT always justify the means. If I have to convince you to rob a bank so that we can feed starving children in Africa, my intent is good, but my 'means' to that 'end' is wrong no matter how you slice it. Getting someone involved in Mary Kay - whether they end up loving it or hating it - should never come at the expense of manipulating or preying on their emotions or trust.

    So, "don't take no for an answer" is NOT, in and of itself, bad. It can be really bad, but it can also be really good. And which one it is really needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

  28. "Apparently, though, time is not free except when you "work" for Mary Kay."

    Wow I had to read my own post four times before I got was I was trying to say... hahaha!

    It should read, 'apparently, though, time is not free when you "work" for Mary Kay.'

    Incase my inference isn't obvious, I'm talking about pay check recipients of Mary Kay Corporate.

    Alrightie, then... It's Friday, 6:00PM my time, and I'm going to look for something yummy and intoxicating to drink.

  29. Flybye,


    For an interesting read on another interesting 'marketer'

    Check out Red Bull

  30. To all readers, sorry this this comes across as strong but, I have had just about enough. Blessed, please get a life, the sky is not falling. (Chicken Little ref.)

    I am taking a break, my hubby is on vacation next week so we are going away and I am going to Dallas in July for Seminar too!! Some of us don't need to work 24/7 to make money in MK.
    However, if I take a month or two break, I would have clients going without products and consultants going without assistance and wouldn't be EARNING my income. UMMM.. I live and pay my bills of my MK business, (did you hear that? )Are you offering to finance my time off? - I can't just take two months off, anyore that someone who works for an Employer would.

    Guess what, I missed two months of meetings because of doctors and hospitals this year, still doing MK!!

    Oh, in case it never crossed you mind, guess what, I go to Church and listen to the Father, I DO NOT Sit their and try to figure out who to warm chat. I am there for any other reason. Cross my heart, I have never tried booking someone at Church. There is a time and place for everything.

    Many of us have the intelligence to not to run our months "pink" every time we open them. Mary Kay is only one part of me.


    My family knows what I do, they don't need to hear about it 24/7 or my extended family doesn't need to hear about it every time we get together but hey!! Guess what??? Because I don't walk in flapping my gums like a duck's *ss in a windstorm and talk about the stuff that is important to me like family stuff,usually they start asking me how business is going, what new products are coming out, etc....
    To tell you the truth, I try to end these conversations to continue with family stuff and we can set up an appointment to take care of business without it imposing on family time.

    I don't need to be told to relax, when I want to relax, I relax. If I want to blog, I blog, If I want to watch tv, I do, or anything else I want to do, I do.

    I don't need to get away from MK and I am not in a fog. My eyes are WIDE OPEN - oh, YES!! there are those that lie, cheat, and manipulate, frontload, etc... but... I will not operate in that manner and I will inspire and mentour all of my peers to also operate from an ethical leadership role. The way Mary Kay taught us to do it and they way two nationals taught me to do it.

    Newsflash: I AM REAL!

    I don't need some person that wasn't intelligent enough to not continue to allow his wife to throw more and more money into looking like she was a succcessful director. And when she couldn't afford to fake it anymore, screaming foul - it's the Company's fault. And you know what, my husband is the head of my home, (of course I consider myself his neck - ya know controls the head) - but seriously I respect that, NOONE ANYWHERE IN OR OUT OF MARY KAY WOULD ANYONE EVER CONVINCE ME I SHOULD HIDE SOMETHING FROM HIM.

    So - thank you for your advice but as a favor, I would like to offer you some too.

    GET OVER IT! You guys tried MK- ok, you were lied to - again - and again - and again- you continued to to paddle a boat with a leak in it intio deeper and deeper water. Finally had your "duh" moment. Quit, broke loose, ran far and fast, recouped whatever money you could. Pouted about your loss, got embarrassed by your mistakes, now get over it. My goodness, is your time worth nothing to you??

    You have already (according to you let Mary Kay take up so much of your time and money) - you are out now, but you are still allowing it to take your time and affect your life. You aren't doing this to help others, actually, I think the more people reading your posts, pretty much think... well... umm... hmmm..... what in the heck is he talking about. I think on many occassions you give more credibility to the pro-mkers than you do to the anti ones.

    The more I continue to see you post and whine and realize you weren't even the consultant, I feel sorry for the director that had to deal with your rhedoric.

    And I am sure if your wife knows how you are still so torn about about what happened to you as a couple while she was in MK, you must be making her feel like sh*t, because it was her "fault" and she should have listened to you. But can't you let it go? No, just keep going on and on about Mk, do you have a clue what you must be doing to her self-esteem, do you realize - she probably feels you are still blaming her, nice husband. I would guess that some where in your marriage you made a mistake - does you wife throw it up in your face day, after day, after day, after day?????

    You learned the lesson, now forgive those that wronged you, forgive yourself for being wrong, love your wife and move on. Geez.......

    Get a life and love your wife!

    (sorry if I offened anyone but I just had to express my feelings on this issue.

  31. wow mk4me, tell us how you really feel!

  32. I enjoy Blessed's posts. Probably because I can relate to him. He had a bad experiance and is telling it to others so they don't fall into the same trap. Can't fault him that.

    If you are doing MK the right way, keep doing that. THAT'S what will be louder than anything you can say on a blog. If Blessed's rants can stop even one person from getting manipulated, then let him speak.

    Yes, not all are bad, but the word has to get out that there are women out there who have no qualms about manipulating someone under the guise of enriching their life. And it would seem to me that the ones really working the business the right way would WANT the word to get out so those "bad seeds" could be weeded out. Instead you want us to shut up, and move on. Why? Blessed takes up just as much time as any of us on the blogs. But you tell him to get a life? Can't the same be said for you?

    I have enjoyed most of your posts, MK4ME. They are usually so inciteful and sincere. Until I read your posts I really did not believe anyone was doing this business the right way. You are the polar opposite of my lovely director.

    But I've got to hand it to my favorite poster on any MK blog, pro or anti -


  33. Thanks, David!

    Re "Flugtag"... interesting you should post this link. Hubby owns a company in the marine industry and he will be providing barge and back-up to Red Bull's Flugtag competition which will be held in our city in August. :)

    They're a really neat company. One that would make an awesome case study if I were a marketing student again. Actually, it would be a real horse of a paper so maybe it's just nice to sit and read about it. LOLOLOL...

  34. MK4ME, cheers! (Passing glass of favorite beverage to MK4ME)

    It's Friday! :)

  35. I vote for MK4ME as my favorite poster. She is financially savvy, ethical and real. She is pleased with her MK business. She has been so transparent (the financial buzzword of the 00s) with us, sharing in great detail how she runs her business. It would be a darn shame to just have Mary Kay "disappear" when there are those like MK4ME who do it right. I'm sure there are more MK4MEs out there, they just chose not to blog.
    I hereby aware MK4ME a certification - CMKFA - Certified Mary Kay Financial Advisor.


    Objective 1 CPA, CIA, CFE and hopefully CPIM if I can stop reading these darn blogs and study!

  36. Well, I guess I proved I am only human, sorry for the outburst but sometimes he can be so offensive. I don't feel for one second he is trying to help anyone, I think he simply likes to be a pain. ugg..

    Okay, got to run - late models are getting ready to run at the track (I am one of many sponsors on one of the cars)!! :)

    First day of Summer open house, over $1000 - catching up with friends and clients, and wow, guess what, all product left with its owner, no deliveries to make or mail!! Woo hoo, gotta love this business and I still have Day Two tomorrow and generally Saturday is better than Friday.

    Thank you all very much for the kind comments, it is nice to know that they are appeciated and I honestly hope the help someone and anyone on here if you ever have a question (about MK) I will do my best to answer.

    Cheers to all my fellow bloggers!!
    Dave, I say your ad for Red Bull, hmmmmmm I have yagermister at home... I think a
    yagerbomber is going taste might good when I get home!

    Well, hubby has to work tonight so I just might be blogging later if not,
    Have a Great Weekend Everyone

  37. objective1 - humbly, thank you for the high compliment! :)

    Former Corp. Accountant/Business Develpment Analyst
    Major: Business/ Accounting
    Minor: Psych

    Personality Type "c" - If I can't win you over with the facts, I will bore you to death with ever last detail of them! :)
    (Including but not restricted to the fine print)

  38. speaking the real truthJune 27, 2008 at 6:51 PM

    Deleted, here is the problem, you are often just plain wrong.

    I worked my church's VBS this week. I had 2 clients (1 a hubby who is on skincare) approach me and tell me that they need product. So, see, even when we are minding our own business, customers want MK products!!!

    I would be willing to bet that for every negative MK experience that Deleted could dig up, I could dig up 5 or more positive ones, and more who would consider the experience neutral.

  39. speaking the real truthJune 27, 2008 at 6:55 PM

    mk4me, I love that you are here. The anti-Mary Kay establishment would have me think that I am alone in working ethically and making money. If they can't prove that no one does, then they try to make it sound like you are the only one.

    You seem like an awesome gal and you represent the Mary Kay that I know and love.

    Pink Hugs to ya!

  40. strt, pink hugs back to you!!

    (I don't know if you saw it but somewhere I posted as I read your posts, I have to look up to see who posted it because, it is my thinking but I didn't remember writing it!

    I think we may be twins that were separated at birth!

    Oh, boo hoo, coil went bad in the car, didn't get to finish the race and hubby is now on his way to work, so .... I can blog, damn, I feel my hips growing wider as I type.

  41. Judi: "Blessed takes up just as much time as any of us on the blogs. But you tell him to get a life? Can't the same be said for you?"

    Judi, yup maybe I should get a life, but my husband works third shift and since I hate housecleaning and I must admit, I haven't found many people willing to have a facial or class at 2:00 am in the morning, so my new hobby, until July 1 when it will become excerising to undo the hip spread from the prementioned bloggin hobby. But in your defense of blessed you are missing the point I am trying to make.

    Have you ever thought of what effect this could be having on his wive's feelings? He is so bitter about her experience in MK, I am sure she is still blaming herself, I shouldn't have said it as get a life... I really meant, move on with his life.

    You know alcoholics could blame the bartender for serving them, after they went to AA - they wouldn't go screaming that the bar/bartender was bad, that noone should ever drink, that every bar owner lies and manipulates his customers by asking them if they want another. And happy hour because drinks are cheaper - and they are really, really bad because they are bribing and manipulating people to drink more.

    In fact most of us would never know if someone was a reformed alcoholic because unless we offered them a drink you wouldn not hear them preaching to everyone that would listen that alcohol and bars are bad, bad, manipulating liars that just want to make money. They accept responsibility that they had a problem with alcohol. Just because they did, doesn't mean everyone will.

    His over the top, dry humor, etc. , and I realize it is just my opinion - but he seems to rub lots of people wrong, not just pro-mk but anti-mk people as well.
    You know the old saying you get more flies with honey...

    Just as I AGREE with the anti-mk people that directors SHOULD NOT GO AROUND.. saying you make executive pay for part time hours, you "win" the car, you always "drive for free". I also feel we don't need people like blessed, going over board the other way.

    And, he wasn't even a consultant. I believe if he stated the problem and suggest how it may be avoided our what to watch out for his message would reach far more. I am glad you post here Judi (for real) I enjoy your post, they usually encourage good conversation, but (and I apologize to you) - when I read his posted I think he is an embarrassement to the anti-mk people.

  42. And.... I am so sorry for the lousy typing job I did on my "rant". Another fact about mk4me, I am almost all Italian, throw in a dash of Irish and a dash of English, and bam!!

    However the Italian in me has made it a requirement for my hands and arms to move even more than my mouth (on occassion) - MR. Mk4me often says, "girl, if I tied your hands, you wouldn't be able to talk!"

    Well thinking of this made me realize, when I am on a "rant" or passionately posting, I am talking in my head, but my hands are on the keyboard and not going all over the place like they are accoustomed to, so I guess that is why my fingers hit the wrong keys all the time. Or at least it sounds better than I am just a reallly bad typer but you do understand why I went back to College as an adult to get of of my secretarial position to my professional career!! I was a really bad secretary.
    (hmm..... does that mean I was a lazy looser as a secretary - or does it just mean it wasn't my niche???)

    things like:

    month is suppose to be mouth
    anyore = any more
    their = there

    just to point out a few...

  43. mk4me,

    since you are up and pointing out your own errors, I just couldn't help but point out that you have just expressed sympathy for a minimum of 2 of deleted's wives. (as opposed to his wife's feelings - singular possessive!!)

    Being from NJ myself, I can appreciate the Italian in you 'more than anyone else'. Keep up the good work! Mr. mk4me sounds like a very intelligent and caring man!

  44. Judi wrote, "Yes, not all are bad, but the word has to get out that there are women out there who have no qualms about manipulating someone under the guise of enriching their life."

    My problem with this is that it is actually so very true - only - this is oh so very true EVERYWHERE and in EVERYTHING. This is NOT exclusive to MK, or to direct sales, or even to MLMs. There are people (male, female, all walks of life, rich, poor) everywhere out to manipulate others. EVERYBODY has to learn to keep an eye out for this.

    Like it or not, that's just the way it is. The sooner individual people learn this, the better off they will be.

    Regarding Blessed's comment, "Visit family and friends without even bringing up the topic of Mary Kay Cosmetics (my bet is they won’t either). Go shopping w/o looking for “sharp looking” women. View this as an “awesome” and “amazing” opportunity to be genuine, to be spontaneous. Revisit the pleasure of uncanned communications with other women.

    Relax. It’s OK. Consider stepping out. Consider the possibilities. You too can be real. You can do it if you really want it."

    I do this all the time. Been doing it for years. In fact, I get a whole lot irritated at family, friends, and even MK customers, who won't LEAVE ME ALONE about MK when I am not wearing my MK hat.

    Sorry, Blessed, but you are wrong with your guess, "Visit family and friends without even bringing up the topic of Mary Kay Cosmetics (my bet is they won’t either)." Oh, they do bring it up. And they wanna know if I brought any of my MK stuff with me.

    MK4Me, I agree with your rant wholeheartedly.

  45. mk4me,

    do you have your own blog? I would love to learn from you.

    Sometimes I feel out of place, because I am not a "cheerleader" type. So the meetings and calls do not get me excited. What does is when I know that I have met a customer's needs.

    Back on topic, almost all sales related JOBs do chargebacks. If you sell something and are paid a comission then it is returned the company does a charge back to you. That is the nature of the beast. Now if you are a store manager paid on the comission of your store, guess what your sales associate and you are charged back. I completely agree with MK doing chargebacks to directors.

    Speaking of directors, doing the business the right way by building a strong customer base and SELLING product about how long does it usually take for one to become a director?

  46. Judi,

    I am beginning to suspect that you ARE blessed. Please forgive me for feeling this way, but consider how you started this.

    "I enjoy Blessed's posts. Probably because I can relate to him."

    How do you know that you can relate to him? He has not told any part of his story. All he has offered (many, many times) is a very vague, "Mary Kay screwed me and my wife over" complaint. He didn't say that his wife was front-loaded. He doesn't say that she was lied to. We just know that 'they were wronged'. It 'sounds like' she was a director. So MAYBE, she was similar to YOUR director that you have told us about that really hurt you. IF (and I stress if) that is the case, do you really think that you can relate to him? This would be like you relating with the husband of the director that lied to you, never helped/trained you and ultimately left you out to dry. We don't have ANY idea what his wife's time in Mary Kay was like. (perhaps you know him personally and thus can relate to him that way, but nothing about either of your posts suggests that there is a pre-relationship, and if there was I would be even more suspicious - but less surprised by - you staunch support of him.

    That being said, something else concerns me about your support of blessed. You say,

    "If you are doing MK the right way, keep doing that. THAT'S what will be louder than anything you can say on a blog. If Blessed's rants can stop even one person from getting manipulated, then let him speak."

    My concern goes back to something I mentioned earlier on this very post... namely, "does the end justify the means?"

    Blessed is saying, "ALL of Mary Kay is bad. He makes no qualms about declaring that. He does not think there is any redeeming value in Mary Kay. He is not suggesting that some are good, some are bad. He is not suggesting that you should advance with caution. He is saying that Mary Kay should be avoided at all costs.

    There are some people who say that anybody from the middle east IS a terrorist. These people would have you believe that if you see someone from the middle east, you should call the police because they MIGHT be planning an act of terror. (Extreme I know, but there ARE people that think that way.) The point COULD be made that their EXTREME view MIGHT help stop AN act of terrorism. But at what cost?

    I am NOT suggesting that Blessed is lumping us in with terrorists (though I wouldn't put it past him), I am saying that for him to smear EVERYONE involved with Mary Kay is (as even you are now realizing) inaccurate AT BEST. If I suggested on this blog that you were a liar, a cheat, and a thief (I am not, but if I did) would you ignore me and say to yourself, "I will just prove he is wrong by not being those things"?

    What I believe you are missing in mk4me's post is that we are not asking him to "shut up", we are asking him to be more productive.

    Instead of insisting (as he does) that Mary Kay will only be good when it is completely destroyed, we have asked him to HELP the people that are in it by suggesting the pitfalls to look out for. His response? "Mary Kay is a bridge that is out." "Go back the way you came." Not exactly informative is our point.

    You will notice that what we TRY to do on this blog is talk about NEW stuff, fresh stuff, stuff that is ongoing. Not the same, tired, Mary Kay is GREAT!!! and Mary Kay Sucks!!! WE KNOW (for the most part) WHO LIKES MARY KAY AND WHO DOESN'T LIKE MARY KAY. We want to find out WHY. Because when we find out (and post) WHY you didn't like Mary Kay, and why Enesvy didn't like Mary Kay, and why Flybye didn't like Mary Kay, we are letting people know, "IF this is the way YOU think about things, IF this is what YOU like/don't like in a company, than Mary Kay is/isn't for you.

    I hope that this makes it a little more clear why what blessed/deleted is doing helps (almost) NO ONE. And why we are so adamant about TRYING to explain it to him. I know he won't listen, but I hope it will make sense to you. We don't hate him. He is just EXTREMELY unproductive and as such he is more of a distraction than the warning that he takes himself for.

    Think of it this way, if you had read what he said BEFORE you had problems with Mary Kay, would it have helped you? (I know you will be tempted to say yes because hindsight -they say- has 20/20 vision and looking back now, he seems to make sense to you, BUT really think about where you were at before. We are TRYING to create an environment where someone that IS being lied to, manipulated and deceived will SEE their situation HERE and realize that they are getting the SHAM version of Mary Kay and they should either get out completely or try to switch to a unit/area that is doing it right)

  47. Smiley4,

    Hello and welcome.

    I am sure that you will get some good responses to your questions - please be patient!

    A lot of people seem to disappear over the weekend. Like they have something better to do than posting comments on a blog!

  48. For Judi, you say that deleted should continue to say what he is saying, and we should just chuckle at his post?? Why - he tells us we are all bad?? MK is all bad. Period.

    We all disagree. You say, well just do things right and if you are you shouldn't worry about what he is saying because your conscious clear.


    Would you please tell me how you and every single pt-er and anti mker would react if I went over there and posted (of course we know it would be deleted and I would be banned but..)

    All people that didn't succeed in Mary Kay are lazy lousers and just didn't try hard enough or do the work.

    Notice I said all?? But if this statement doesn't apply to you don't worry about it because your actions spoke louder than your comment, if you did try, then why are you worried about people saying that, you know you aren't lazy!

    Do I really need to explain it any more??

  49. Good morning Smiley4!

    Thank you but no, I don't have my own blog, being a little OCD, I wouldn't even attempt it because I feel it would take up too much time to do it well, but thanks to Dave's gracious offer, I can sort of have one without feeling I am not keeping up with it. Thanks Dave!

    And your question about how long and being a director is a great one. I feel it is worth its own article. So look for it in the near future. Needless to say, there is no magical timeline but have some great ideas and stats!

  50. Wow. Had no idea my comment would warrant any responses.

    I am not Blessed. I do not know him. I know a little of his experience, thru what he says here and on other blogs. I can relate that he also had a bad experience. I enjoy his posts. I think they are hilarious. Snarky, smart alec. I love it.

    I do not take myself very seriously so I would not get offended if someone said "we were all lazy losers!" How I feel about myself is not determined by what a stranger says to me online.

    I first got involved with MK when I was 18. Really had NO IDEA that the MK lady would lie to me. I mean, she was preaching god first! I learned that she was fairly new to MK herself and got to director very quickly. So when she would tell me stuff, it was not correct, but she didn't know that. Can corporate at least know what their directors are teaching their downlines? Can they at least make sure their directors know the basics? My director had no idea that you can return product for a rolling year, not a year from signing your agreement. I know, I know. I could have read that on In Touch. But I mistakenly thought my director knew what she was talking about. I did not know I would have to research everything she told me. So I fizzled. I was 18, did not need to think about wrinkles and skin care. Those were the days . . .

    And then I resigned up years later under my lovely director, who is not a director at this time. She is set to become one again soon. I get daily emails from her and her director asking me to please stretch. Just a $400 order by June end. Then she can acheive her dream. If it's YOUR dream, why does it hinge on MY finances??

    So, why do I stick around? Well, I am not 18 anymore. I do think about wrinkles. Don't have them yet, don't want to get them. And my director is sooooo desperate for my order that she gives me free product when I order. I have a bunch of people that order with me. At least one of us gets her order for free. We take turns. My soon to be director again also gives me the hostess gifts she is left with at the end of a quarter. I give them to my friends who order. Why would any of us go elsewhere? I have many incentives to stick around.

  51. speaking the real truthJune 28, 2008 at 7:09 AM

    smiley-I say 2 years, will explain when mk4me does a post about it.

    Judi, your director, even though she might be nice, and in your words, "lovely" is doing it all wrong too! The is building on quicksand, and using styrofoam instead of wood. If she is having to buy orders now, she will never make it as a director, and it sounds like she has been one before. When she keeps asking you to stretch, why not write her back and say that you will ordering what you need to service your clients, and would she kindly refrain from trying to guilt/pressure you into ordering more in order for her to become a very weak director?

    As much as unethical directors are a problem, so are ones like your soon to be director, who are not building strong, who work from desperation. Desperation can leads to poor decision making, and I think that is why some directors wind up doing unethical things. If she would build stronger, she would not feel so desperate all the time!

  52. Judi's quote: "And my director is sooooo desperate for my order that she gives me free product when I order. I have a bunch of people that order with me. At least one of us gets her order for free. We take turns. My soon to be director again also gives me the hostess gifts she is left with at the end of a quarter. I give them to my friends who order. Why would any of us go elsewhere? I have many incentives to stick around."

    That's just plain wrong. Judi, your post leaves the impression that you are a taker and an opportunist.

    Another Judi quote: If it's YOUR dream, why does it hinge on MY finances??

    So you won't support her when she needs the extra push, (understandably if it's not in your best interest), but you'll take advantage of her? As in accept her free product incentives with a two-faced snicker behind her back?

    What if there were no incentives, at all, ever? Would you even use Mary Kay?

    Somebody needs to find out who your director is so that she can drop you like a hot potato. As in let you order when you're ready and IF you meet the ordering bonus THEN you get the bonus. Same for your free-loading friends.

    You know, many would classify me as "anti-mk", but dearie, if I compare you to me, YOU'RE the "anti". You're what screws with a consultant's head.

    Wow. Nasty!

  53. Sorry, I was being sarcastic when I used the word lovely. She has been a director FOUR times before. She is not the best money management person, is she? I have told her to stop with the emails. She says we are all women, we must help each other. I actually am ready to place an order but will wait until July 1. If she can't help herself, I will try to help. I have not gotten any emails from my new director to help her (new director), but she does email me to help my ex director. If it weren't so sad, it would be comical. They are not treating this like a legit business. It would have been nice to start out in MK3ME's unit.

  54. Fly, so I shouldn't take a discount that is offered to me? This woman bombards me with emails and phone calls, and has yet to learn that no means no. She needs all the orders she can get to achieve her "dream" of being a director for MK. I am helping her achieve that dream. Because she certainly is not treating it like a job, with financial consequences.

    I have told her I am not selling this stuff. I am strictly personal use. That is what gets me about the "helping her." She knows that when she asks for help she is not asking me to do another SCC. Work my business a little harder. She is asking me to order, for the sole purpose for furthering HER.

    I dont' see how my friends are free loaders. If I want to share my discount, there is no reason I can't. And if I have a friend who sells melaluca and she shares her discount with me, then I am only happy to pass along my savings to her. How much money I make on an order has nothing to do with how much my director gets. Her commission is the same.

    Am I an opportunist? Yes. If an opportunity arises, I take it. Am I a taker? No. I am purposfully waiting to place my next order until after June ends. This woman is on a downward spiral. AGAIN. I can't support that.

    Do I snicker behind her back? At times. I get very aggravated with the emotional manipulation. When I don't hear from her for a while, phone wise, I really dislike her. I get so many emails. Then when I hear her voice, she is so very nice. I really don't think she means to do this, she is just desperate.

  55. Judi -- Just wondering? Why do you stick with this director? Not once have I been asked to order. I get deadline emails reminding me of dates, but that is it. If I got pressure, I would find someone else. It can (and should) be diffent in MK that what you are experiencing.

    In fact, when my director recently entered caddy qualification, she sent an email to all of us saying she would NOT be sending anything out. Just wanted us to all work our business as we planned, if she could help let us know and thanked us for all the work we had done in building our businesses and allowing her to share.

    Some of us called to just ask how it was going but she always advised she preferred not to share since she didn't want any of us to do anything other than we planned for our business. She always asked if we were getting what we wanted out of if and if she could help in any way. If we said yes it was working for us, she said she was proud of us and the converation moved on. If we said no, she asked if there was anything she could do to help.

    Needless to say, she did EARN that caddy. That is the MK way and I absolutely adore but mostly RESPECT her for that. And, she is the top director in our area. Guess MK did know what she was talking about!

  56. Judi -- Just wondering? Why do you stick with this director? Not once have I been asked to order. I get deadline emails reminding me of dates, but that is it. If I got pressure, I would find someone else. It can (and should) be diffent in MK that what you are experiencing.

    In fact, when my director recently entered caddy qualification, she sent an email to all of us saying she would NOT be sending anything out. Just wanted us to all work our business as we planned, if she could help let us know and thanked us for all the work we had done in building our businesses and allowing her to share.

    Some of us called to just ask how it was going but she always advised she preferred not to share since she didn't want any of us to do anything other than we planned for our business. She always asked if we were getting what we wanted out of if and if she could help in any way. If we said yes it was working for us, she said she was proud of us and the converation moved on. If we said no, she asked if there was anything she could do to help.

    Needless to say, she did EARN that caddy. That is the MK way and I absolutely adore but mostly RESPECT her for that. And, she is the top director in our area. Guess MK did know what she was talking about!

  57. Oops, sorry for duplicate comment. Phone rang and I forgot that I had already hit submit by the time I got off.

  58. Judi, Well, if I were you, I'd go into the "rules" area of my email program and set up a rule that would forward her email directly into my trash (or maybe just have it rerouted back to her in-box). That way I wouldn't have to be "bothered".

    Secondly, I would be very clear and tell her that I wasn't interested in the "left over" gifts, anymore and suggest that she may like oo offer them up to somebody else as an incentive to purchase her dream for her.

    Maybe the shock of telling her what you really think might get her to cool her jets. At least with you. Nobody likes confrontation. If I had to I'd get real nasty with her about not contributing her the financial grave she's digging for herself then I would.

    That's just me.

    You have your 50% discount. That's your incentive for a Personal Use Consultant. Taking her incentives as "payment" for putting up with her is just plain wrong.

    Maybe anon is right. Why not just adopt a different director?

  59. And for those who are doing it right, like your caddy director, and MK4ME, wonderful. Please know, that if I ever say "them" in reference to directors, it is not including those doing it right. I am only talking about those doing it wrong.

    Why do I stay with her? Right off the top of my head? She gives me free product for every order I place. I have a few friends that like MK but won't buy it retail. They love it wholesale, though. And many of them have discounts for other companies that they pass on to me. I am very willing to share my discount. Why not? So a bunch of us order and we take turns getting free product.

    My director- to- be would like for us to order more color. I do not see a difference in MK's color and cover girl, so I son't order that for myself. So she sent me $100 worth of new color. Full size product. I shared it with friends. If they like it and want to order it, good for her commission. I don't sell anything. But she will occasionally come and do a class for us to show us what is new. We order and she gets a commission. None of them would ever buy retail so she knows they won't go straight to her, or any other consultant. They have the best deal in town. We dont' ask her to do classes. She wants ordering consultants under her. It doesn't make much financial sense to me, but I am not hiding anything from her. The last class she had for us, our sitter bailed and we had all 16 kids here. It was a mad house. She was irked, but knew before hand what was going on. I offered to cancel it, but she didn't want to. That is her decision. I don't ask her for anything. She offers, I accept.

    But recently it is getting crazy. I know she is already paying for the use of the car. I really don't want to see her hurt. So I am not ordering until next month, even though I need some things and have an order ready. Just need to hit the checkout button. That is for her benefit.

    What do you guys think? This woman has been a director 4 times before. This will be her 5th time. She pays for her car more months than not. (I know that from her husband.) She gives away so much stuff, she can't possibly be keeping much in the way of commissions. I have been given so much luggage with the lips on it that I now have a collection. I don't know how much that costs, but I have 7 (SEVEN) pieces! That was when I was selling. Now she only offers me skin care. Should I stop ordering and let my gravy train run out?

  60. Guess you should realize this for what it is. If your director is not a director to help you build a business (which you don't want), then it is what it is. It's a gravy train, both get what they want, so don't complain if you have to put up with lots of emails. That is your end of the bargain to get the freebies.

    I don't personally agree with the relationship, but it's not mine so more power to both of you.

    I also want others who are considering this as a business not to think this is the norm in MK. At least it is not in my experience so it doesn't have to be in theirs either.

  61. Ok, gonna go put some effort into building my business. Thanks for letting me share and will be back to this site often. So glad I found you guys!

  62. Mk4me,

    Your distain for what I say has such depth, such passion! I’ve got to wonder why you can’t simply dismiss my comments w/o the increase in blood pressure. Somehow, it seems, my comments can furiously rattle your chain while (by contrast) cause others to barely flinch. I wonder why. I’ve got to wonder what the potency of my comments says about your world, your MK world.

    Just a few thoughts about my wife: You can’t imagine the horror of watching the one you love impale themselves on the Mary Kay Cosmetics sword. Your assumption was substantially on target. My wife does feel horrible about what her stint with the dream did to her, to us. If she could, I’ve no doubt she’d travel back in time and erase the “ya ya,” the fakery, the deception, and the pain. Make no mistake, though, she is no less a person and is not a failure, never has been. She is (we are) a recovered host of a parasitic social disease, the Mary Kay “opportunity.” I’m so thankful I have her, her wisdom, her love. We learned so very much during our time with the dream, we grew. We also learned and grew when we wrestled through my then 6 year olds bout with cancer. I pray God will never have us repeat either experience and I’ll not hesitate for a minute to help someone else avoid or recover from similar nightmares.

    Are there women in Mary Kay who largely (perhaps even completely) avoid directly committing the ridiculous acts which have reduced this “business opportunity” to the bad joke it is today? Sure. I bet there are many. I bet there are some on this blog who easily fall in that category. For me to say otherwise reduces my credibility. Many here seem to get lost on this point. I’m not accusing every woman who has signed an IBC agreement of engaging in the disgusting tactics so common to the public persona of the Mary Kay Lady. I am, however, saying you can’t be a part of MK and simultaneously claim immunity from the broad brush splattered around so recklessly by the Mary Kay machine.

    Consider the gang-banger standing at the cash register in the liquor store who just pulled the trigger and ripped a hole in the abdomen of the elderly man behind the counter. I think we can all agree what he’s done is bad. But what about the driver and the rest of the dawgs in the car wearing their colors, waiting for the money from the cash register, and a few hits of liquor. They were nowhere near the gun when it was fired. Shouldn’t they be able to claim innocence? How about the dawgs (other gang members) back at the crib who earlier in the week conducted surveillance of the liquor store? And what about the others who simply helped plan the heist/assault? Finally, don’t forget about the gang members who largely had nothing to do with the perpetration of this particular act but will use the money and imbibe the stolen liquor? Is the problem here limited to merely people in liquor stores who shoot store employees? I don’t think so. All have varying degrees of culpability. It’s kind of tough to be in a gang and “do it right.”

    So while you may in fact be able to avoid some to the famously unsavory ploys and tactics so common to the MK MLM, while you may be able to claim some reduced level of culpability, you are nonetheless part of the same enterprise that churns and burns and leaves so many women in its wake.

    All wishful thinking aside, you’re a part of it. Just like the Bloods and the Crips, you can’t be a member of the organization without being a member of the organization.

    Finally, please know Judi and I (for your information Dave) are not the same person. And Judi, thanks again for your kind words.


  63. speaking the real truthJune 28, 2008 at 10:02 AM

    Deleted, it is not only mk4me that you irritate! Your smug and condescending manner of speaking is what does it! In addition to the fact that you are often just plain wrong. I cannot speak for mk4me, but I guess that she is like me, passionate about her business, grateful for it, and that she gets tired of your incessant unsubstantiated critiques about something that we love.

    You do not even respond to the questions asked of you, you just go onto another tirade of ridiculous comparisons and analogies.

    Gangs. Really? Are you kidding me? If your theory held true, then everyone involved in organized religion would responsible for the liars and schemers like Jim Baker. Everyone who works for a drug company would be responsible for the damage that some drugs have caused to patients.

    If you want credibility, answer these questions:
    Does your wife know that you blog here regularly? Does she know that you are not over this?
    What EXACTLY happened with your wife and Mary Kay?
    Do you also blog about cancer? I am sure that there are those who could benefit from your experience with your child (and you truly have my empathy for what you must have gone through with that experience). Wouldn't that accomplish so much more than your rantings here?
    Would you respond when someone points our how wrong you are?

    Last, but not least, you talk about God. Is your behavior indicative of how Jesus would have handled things?

  64. speaking the real truthJune 28, 2008 at 10:06 AM

    Judi, I do not think that you are wrong for taking the products that she gives to you, nor do I think she should drop you. I can see where you get some of your negative opinions about Mary Kay, since you are clearly in the middle of a ridiculous mess.

    I have made it clear that I do not like the "wholesale buying club" that some establish, but that is your business.

    What I would recommend is that you call the sales development dept. for your Seminar group. Since she is a DIQ, they would be particular interested in how she works and builds her business, especially since she has been down this road many times before. Let them know before they give her a unit number again. That could really help her, as she might get some much needed counseling and mentoring. While you are at it, make sure that they know that you get emails from your director about her as well, when this director has to know that she isn't strong enough for directorship. She needs a whack in the head as well for encouraging it! Your recruiter does not need to be a director, and your director is not ready to be a Sr. Director.

  65. Ugh, I don't even want to read this site anymore, with that guy posting on it. I just can't stomach his rude and inconsiderate, not to mention, UNTRUTHFUL statements, and absurd sweeping generalities. I love this site; I don't post much but I, like a lot of people, like reading what Shay, MK4ME, Speaking the Real Truth, David, mkhonesty, and others have to say. But reading that man's comments is worse than Pink Truth almost! Just something about him gets under my skin. It seems here everyone is smart and can logically debate w/ each other, but I don't have the time or the clarity of mind to write a post w/out holes in it. So if people disagree with what I am saying, or point out the errors in logic, it's okay! I am speaking purely from emotion and NOT necessarily logic and clear though. That guy just IRKS me! I won't even get into MY MK story and try to defend myself. I will just say that his comments are very disheartening, more so than any other non-mk people!

  66. More info, please, Speaking. I called the 800 number for MK and spoke to more than one person about all the shinanagans. Is there somewhere else I need to call? I really do feel for this woman and her family. She has 5 small children, under 12. I really don't want to see her hurt, even with our history. So how do I get in touch with the sales development department? Is that thru the 800 number?

  67. Deleted,

    You are wrong.

    But since you really can’t seem to understand, why don’t we have a face to face discussion about it. But first, in order to avoid being hypocritical, I am going to have to ask you to do a few things.

    First, destroy your camera. Or cameras. All of them. You see, some people have used cameras to take pictures of people in the act of violating small children and profited by selling them.

    Speaking of which, cancel your subscription to the internet and destroy your computer. You see some people use computers and the internet to perpetrate unthinkable acts the world over. By owning a computer and by subscribing to the internet, you are an enabler to these horrific happenings.

    Burn your house to the ground, bring any and all vehicles you own to the salvage yard to be destroyed, because between slimy real estate agents, brokers, drunk drivers, vehicle insurance scams and drug traffickers that use cars to cart illicit drugs you are certainly far too supportive of those things by having a home and vehicles.

    Now don’t make your way over here by plane, train or automobile… I could cite all kinds of things that would absolutely mortify you about those as well… and, well, as you say being connected to them is like being in a gang.

    So, I guess you will have to walk out here to Los Angeles. Close your eyes and hold your breath through Las Vegas… I don’t even want to tell you what goes on there. Or better yet, avoid that city altogether.

    When you get here – and if you have done all these things – I will gladly concede that the people on my blog should rethink their participation in Mary Kay.

    I hope you understand.

    Now, please allow me to address what some people here are pointing out about your irritating style.

    You write in a manner and style that is designed to provoke emotions in people. I know that you know this.

    How long have you been waiting to say:

    “Your distain for what I say has such depth, such passion! I’ve got to wonder why you can’t simply dismiss my comments w/o the increase in blood pressure. Somehow, it seems, my comments can furiously rattle your chain while (by contrast) cause others to barely flinch. I wonder why. I’ve got to wonder what the potency of my comments says about your world, your MK world.”

    When I was in High School, this was how we ‘played the game’. We were absolutely brutal to each other. When I think back on some of the things that I said to provoke classmates, I shudder. We were all verbally abusive. We tore at any weakness we could find just to elevate our social position.

    Growing up in NJ may have had something to do with it, or maybe all high school kids are brutal, but I will never forget the first time I turned that vile, manipulative tongue on someone that I really cared about. The look on her face destroyed me. What I said wasn’t even that bad (by my H.S. standards), but for her it was a knife in the stomach.

    I have tough skin. Your hate filled discharge invokes feelings of sympathy in me. But for others on this blog, for people that don’t understand the place of hurt that your anger is coming from, it is devastating. You are baiting them into having an emotional reaction. You are, in essence, begging them to hate you.

    Please stop.

    We WANT to help you tell other people your story. But you won’t tell your story.

    We WANT to help you warn other people about what happened to you. But you won’t tell us what happened to you.

    I won’t offer an ultimatum. I am simply asking you to please participate in the discussion.

    If you want to smear Mary Kay and bait consultants into an angry, heated exchange of sarcastic words, start your own blog. You already have one reader (Judi).

    This is not the place for it.

    Thank you.

  68. Dave,

    You make some excellent, valid, points. I’m not sure you intended to provide the illustration you did. But before I go further, let me acknowledge your wonderful ability to express yourself. That combined with what I detect as genuine compassion (to the extent you can detect such things on a blog) make for what I’m sure must be an exceedingly gracious person.

    You mentioned my cameras, my computer, the internet, my house, my vehicles, trains, planes, etc. Your analogy is incredibly illustrative. Think about it. If all these things are used as designed, absent unintended aberrations, they for the most part cause no harm. The vast majority who use them suffer no ill effects. By contrast, multi level marketing will, by design, produce negative outcomes for the vast majority of those who become involved. The Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM does so by subterfuge. Consider the audacity of an organization which proclaims to “enrich women’s lives” while promoting a system which, (again, by design) bilks women by the shipload and then cleverly maneuvers them to wither off feeling as though they’ve failed. I think your buddy Scam has it right (if I understood his writings); the MLM is on the way out as a marketing modality. I’ve got no problems with Mary Kay Cosmetic products, mind you, my complaints have entirely to do with a marketing plan which victimizes women and their families.

    Perhaps that’s the core of the issue. I believe MK is an enterprise which will assuredly bring eventual loss to the majority of its participants. Some on this blog believe MK is the God sent blessing to women presented in the advertisements. Mk4me, and others see it as just another business venture. We disagree.

    Another point: Our story hasn’t been completely told on line. It won’t be told in the near future (beyond what I’ve shared thus far). One day, I believe, I will not only tell our complete story, I’ll tell ya my name, my address, etc. (not that I’ve done a whole lot to hide that anyway). My wife isn’t one to get involved in blogs but she is all for helping others avoid the horror we and many others experienced. My current situation doesn’t allow me to publicly engage in public political debate. For similar reasons, we will continue to use the anonymity offered by the internet when discussing the Mary Kay cult. My point is there is no reason to continue to ask about specifics regarding our Mary Kay experience. We will continue to deliberately withhold that information. I wouldn’t find it surprising, though, if many who’ve read my posts already know the identity of my wife and me. I’ve certainly put enough details out there. So then, to conclude this point, you need not ask again for me to reveal more about our story. I will, however, continue to share our conclusions.

    Finally, and most importantly for this post, I want to apologize. I specifically apologize to Mk4me. I regret my comment sounded as though I was bating you. As much as we may disagree, I respect your right to make your own decisions about your participation in Mary Kay Cosmetics. I regret my posts have been construed by you and others here as insulting and condescending.

    Please know, however, I have no plans to yield, here or elsewhere, with regard to my convictions about the way the MK MLM accosts women. My post will continue to be intentionally provocative. I don’t, however, intend to personally insult. If you think about it, the MK community is comprised of women with some of the most desirable qualities; the qualities God blessed me with when he sent my wife. I regret I said what I did about your passion Mk4me.


  69. speaking the real truthJune 28, 2008 at 2:53 PM

    Hi Judi, you could call the 800-DIRSOON number and see if you can talk with someone in the DIQ dept. Also, when you call the 800 consultant hotline, ask to be connected to your Sales Development Team.

    If she isn't doing anything blatantly against the rules, they may not can do much, but they do keep records on each consultant. These types of calls do not look good on her record, and could affect them giving her a unit number or at least extensions, etc.

  70. deleted, thank you for the apology.

    I assure you, I have no plans on backing down either.

    Alot of bad happens in the world, lots of bad stuff,murder, rape, kidnapping, etc... by your logic, do you plan on checking out of the planet? By leading by example, by speaking out when things are done wrong, I can be part of a posetive change. Mary Kay started out with just nine people, she didn't not have a plan for people to get used and manipulated. If enough of us that do it the right way are loud enough, we will be heard and will have a posetive influence on those doing it wrong.

    On a personal note, it seems like the system is starting to correct itself because it seems like the ones that have built strong are NOT the units struggling right now, the ones struggling and stepping down are the ones that have been frontloading and manipulating people and it is catching up to them. I believe (and only time will tell) that we are going to come full circle and that more and more will start to realize doing it wrong might get you there but it won't keep you there. Doing it right, it will work for you and your unit. Everyone wins.

    (I am very sorry to hear what you, your wife, and your child went thru). There is probably nothing more horrific than watching a child suffer. I do hope that your child is now doing well.

  71. D,

    I echo mk4me's expression of sympathy for you, your wife and your child.

    Also, thank you for toning it down and expressing, in a more conversational tone, your position.

    You said,

    "By contrast, multi level marketing will, by design, produce negative outcomes for the vast majority of those who become involved."

    This is the kind of statement that I am asking you to back up in some way.

    You can cite PSA (pyramid scheme alert) suggesting that 99% of those involved lose money, but (if you have actually read the report) you and I both know that it doesn't really support that statement at all.

    Later, you more accurately say,

    "Perhaps that’s the core of the issue. I believe MK is an enterprise which will assuredly bring eventual loss to the majority of its participants. Some on this blog believe MK is the God sent blessing to women presented in the advertisements. Mk4me, and others see it as just another business venture. We disagree."

    This indeed IS the core of the issue.

    I have been saying this from day one.

    You think the majority will lose money.

    I think the majority are given the CHANCE to make money and (for the most part) their odds hinge on their actions.

    We disagree.

    However, I try to bring something NEW to the table every time I write something here.

    You, by contrast, just come up with a different illustration to illustrate the same point.

    What I am asking of you is to realize that we KNOW that you THINK Mary Kay is going to hurt the vast majority of those involved. What we don't know is WHY you think that.

    Details are not necessarily necessary. Support of your conclusion is what we are asking.

    Imagine that I told you that water was bad for you.

    You say, "no, it isn't, in fact, it is good for you".

    I respond, "water is like nicotine, it will kill you"

    You inquire, "how do you know?"

    I respond, "water is like cocaine, it will kill you"

    And we keep going back and forth.

    Not really productive is it?

    My point is that your illustrations, as graphic and demonstrative as they are, do little more than express your view that Mary Kay is bad... AGAIN.

    What I am asking of you is that you limit your posts to explaining WHY you feel that way.

    This request incidentally is why I deleted your crocodile post.

    It is ok to disagree here. Even those of us that 'like' Mary Kay disagree on some of the finer points of the best way to run a business or a unit.

    It is a GOOD thing to disagree. Exchanging opinions and understanding leads to better understanding. But there is a productive way and an unproductive way of doing so.

  72. Are you looking for empirical data? You want me to submit a research paper? I don’t have it. I’ve completed no objective research, no blind or double blind study with control groups. And if I were to complete such a research project, wouldn’t the results be tainted by my clearly published biases re the issues studied? I have simply my (our) personal conclusions and observations to offer. And in my mind, this is very valuable.

    This is what bothers me Dave. There are uncounted instances on this purportedly objective blog where those espousing the virtue of the “opportunity” have NOT been tasked with providing objective evidence. As I’ve said before, your enforcement of this standard is arbitrary and capricious. Around here, if your pro “dream,” you get a bye.

    My personal observations and conclusions are as valid as any others offered here. In fact, with regard to the experience of a family bilked by the MK MLM cult, I’m a world renowned expert. I find it offensive that you present this blog as an objective source for all opinions/information but then selectively enforce a subjective standard for evidence. Who is being condescending now?

    Regardless of your arbitrary standards, I can tell you my conclusions are perfectly valid, certainly as valid as anyone other conclusions offered here.

  73. Mk4me & Dave,

    And thank you both for your kind thoughts re my son. He’s now 17, healthy and wonderful!

  74. Deleted,

    Wrong again.

    This is a simple, IF/THEN equation.

    IF you have proof that what you experienced was by design THEN present that proof.

    IF you do not have proof THEN don't declare it.

    I challenge you to show me ONE (just 1) time that someone (besides you) has declared that Mary Kay was a gift from God - or that you could make full time money with part time work - or even, for that matter, that Mary Kay's manipulation of some IS NOT by design - that I did NOT chastise or correct.

    Many have said that they FEEL Mary Kay is this way, that they BELIEVE that Mary Kay is this way - and even in this thread, I had no problem with YOU saying that you BELIEVE that the vast majority of those in Mary Kay will lose money.

    But if you are going to say that it is a fact that MLM's ARE this way by design, that Mary Kay destroys their consultants INTENTIONALLY, you better come with the proof.

    Your "personal observations and conclusions ARE as valid as any others offered here". When they are presented that way.

    When you step into the realm of stating something as FACT, I will ask you to prove it - or recant.

    I KNOW that you are intelligent enough to "get this".

  75. Blessed -- When you say

    "with regard to the experience of a family bilked by the MK MLM cult"

    are you referring to MKC or independent contractors?

  76. Dave,

    No, I am right!

    You’re playing word games here. Are you actually suggesting nobody here has ever made unsubstantiated claims about the virtues of MK w/o a qualifying statement couching them as opinion vs. fact? Give me a break and come down off your high horse.


    I’m referring to both. I’m referring to the system, the MLM paradigm. I believe the argument over who is more at fault for the MK fiasco (consultants vs. corporate) is a diversionary tactic usually employed by those who often light candles at the MKC alter, as if corporate can do (has done) no wrong. You know, I’m talking about the, “It’s bad IBCs, not the plan” argument. It’s just a smoke screen.


  77. I'm new to this blog, so bear with me if this has already been discussed.

    As an IBC, I do treat my business as if it was a McDonald's franchise. It is a business for me, they sell me products, I sell those products within their guidelines.

    I do not worship at any altar, I worship God. MKC is a company, not an evil empire. MLM is a business model, not a get rich quick scheme (or scheme of any kind).

    As has been said before, those with good intentions will follow the rules, those with bad intentions will not. And, unfortunately, some may get hurt along the way -- either because the encountered the bad, didn't understand the rules, or were naive.

    I do not know your situation, so can't comment that you fit into one of the categories above. I just still don't get how MKC is the evil empire here.

    ltcme (posted as Anon because I can't sign in for some reason)

  78. Deleted,

    Does that mean you couldn't find any?

    As I said,

    "I KNOW that you are intelligent enough to "get this"."

    I am not playing word games.

    Allow me to illustrate from your response to 'itcme' here.

    Your quote,

    "I believe the argument over who is more at fault for the MK fiasco (consultants vs. corporate) is a diversionary tactic usually employed by those who often light candles at the MKC alter, as if corporate can do (has done) no wrong. You know, I’m talking about the, “It’s bad IBCs, not the plan” argument. It’s just a smoke screen."

    I feel like a grammar teacher here, but here goes.

    You say, "I believe" in reference to the argument being a 'diversionary tactic'.

    This is fine.

    I believe that it is NOT a diversionary tactic. We disagree.

    No big deal.

    If YOU ask ME why I believe so, I will take the time to explain that if MKC is culpable... well, I wont explain it again, if you want to hear why I believe that you will have to read this post again. I think - although it is long - it does a good job of explaining WHY I believe the argument is NOT a smokescreen.

    If I ask YOU why you believe it is a smokescreen what answer will you give?

    Now, the subject of your belief (the argument is a smokescreen) aside, your 'smear' of those that take up the discussion being "those who often light candles at the MKC alter, as if corporate can do (has done) no wrong."

    YOU KNOW that MOST people here that take up the discussion of who is culpable do NOT 'light candles at the MKC altar' and we NEVER claim that 'corporate can do (has done) no wrong'. Yet you state that as if it is gospel.

    You IMPLY that ANYONE who brings up the question IS this way and are using it as a smokescreen.

    Again, we KNOW that you think the problem is the plan.

    What we want to know is WHY you think the problem is the plan.

    What specifically is wrong with the plan.

    Again, please feel free to point out just one time that someone has posted (as you do) that they KNOW something to be true without some explanation of WHY or HOW they KNOW that.


    "I KNOW that I made money, because I made the money."

    (equivalent would be)

    "I KNOW that I lost money, because I lost the money."

    "I know that my wife was manipulated because I saw it first hand."

    These are all fine. I am looking for these. I welcome them whether they make Mary Kay look good or bad.

    What I am NOT looking for, and I have told you this over and over and over and over, is antagonistic accusations based on unsubstantiated assumptions.

    Again, please show me ONE (just one time anywhere, anyhow - besides the one that you posted when you were pretending to be an overzealous consultant) time that someone made "antagonistic accusations based on unsubstantiated assumptions" that I did not rebuke similarly to the way that I do to you.

    I KNOW that you can't. YOU know that you can't.

    You know what I am asking.

    Please leave it at that and either begin participating in the way that I ask everyone else to, or, as I suggested, create your own blog (they are free) where you can express yourself as you see fit.

    Thank you.

  79. Itcme,

    “Evil Empire” may be a bit too strong, but I can empathize with those who may want to use such a phrase. That’s OK. Don’t beat yourself up. There are many who don’t understand. Time and information are a sure cure. Take a moment and read some of the archives on, and similar blogs. These are testimonials from women just like you. It may be too presumptuous of me to suggest here you’ve not already done this. Forgive me if my presumption is inaccurate. I know, though, Mary Kay and its minions make it a practice to warn their flock to avoid “negative” material. I say read everything you can about the “opportunity.”
    Good luck and God bless.


  80. Deleted -- I was trying to be kind and truly understand. I found Pink Truth by mistake but read on. I was appalled. I searched more and found this blog, along with several others.

    That is as far as I will go with this discussion. I now agree with other posters, it is useless to try to gain information from you.

    A civil discussion is out of the question with you. Your condecending tone in your last response was totally unwarranted and I will not participate.

    I wanted to sympathize, understand your point of view and get all of the "facts" as you call them. However, your condesending tone has turned me off and I no longer care to understand your point. You have undermined your own credibility and I guess you wallow in your own misery. I choose not to participate.

  81. Dave,

    Forget it. I do know you place an unfair evidentiary burden on my posts but you can be sure I’m not gonna waste my time searching for an example of your bias. I do not soften my position in the least. Frankly, I’m just surprised you’re not more willing to admit your leanings. Don’t look now but there’s a huge pink elephant in your living room. It’s Ok though, if you’d like to play and pretend it’s not there. After all, as you pointed out, it’s your blog.

  82. For some really weird and warped reasons I am finding Deleted's last two comments to be hilarious!

    Oh what a lot of words used to say so little except very thinly veiled insults.

  83. speaking the real truthJune 28, 2008 at 7:27 PM

    Dear Deleted, in one of your earlier posts I sensed a human side to you, not the the rhetoric spewing machine that we normally hear from. I though to myself, "okay, now if he will talk in this tone, we can have some decent debate". BUT, then you get all riled up again when we ask for information.

    I am not asking to see W2s or anything else, no hard proof. Just your story. I don't understand why you are unwilling to share that. By the same token, other posters here share every day, from long posts with all of the sordid details, to short quips about our day and our businesses. With that said, I do not understand how you can accuse Dave of being biased, we've provided info., no solid proof, just info. on our lives in Mary Kay. Is asking the same of you, for the purpose of backing up your opinions, asking too much? Without any info. or details, it just all seems like rhetoric and talk, as if you are speaking in theory, not from experience. I hope that you understand what I am saying.

    Like the others said, I am very sorry for your son, and in an earlier post expressed my empathy for that situation. However, I left some questions for you in that post that you have not answered. Could you please address those?

  84. speaking the real truthJune 28, 2008 at 7:27 PM

    mk4me, waiting on that post about moving into directorship! I have a lot to say on that topic.

  85. speaking the real truthJune 28, 2008 at 7:33 PM

    also for deleted.

    If I understand you correctly, you feel that Mary Kay's business plan is inherently flawed, like gangs, and basically imply that no good can come from that.

    So, is that to say that if one joins Mary Kay, follows the plan as lined out by corporate literature, sells products, orders what she needs to service her customer base, and if she ever leaves, she sells back the remaining product, that you think she will suffer? If not, then I don't think that you can claim that the plan is inherently flawed.

    Also, intent comes into play. I understood you to say that Mary Kay intends for women to be hurt or suffer losses. Is that what you meant? If so, that doesn't even make sense, because that dynamic would not have lasted 45 years.

    If you are not going to answer the tough questions in reference to your posts, and are only going to quibble with Dave over words and semantics, I must tell you that it gets boring. It makes me suspect that you like the attention and that you like to talk a lot. So, for your own credibility and the "balance" that we strive for on this site, please respond to questions that are asked of you. We understand that you do not want to disclose your whole story/identity, that's fine, but all along I've asked several questions that you have ignored.

  86. Speaking,

    You ask some good questions. I've spent too much time on-line today as it is but I will ponder your request. In the mean time, have your read my post at the following location:

    Does this provide any more of a foundation for where we've been?

    A while ago I began to write about our experience. It's been a healthy exercise. What I've written, though, reveals so much about us. I'm confident we couldn't publish this and remain anonymous. I can understand how this may be difficult to appreciate. I hope you can begin to understand what must clearly appear like stone-walling.

    Please also consider I'm not making a profit from anyone's decision to forgo the dream. However harsh my presentation may at times seem, please know my intentions are honorable.

    For now, I'm going to bed.

  87. Deleted,

    First of all, I can't believe that you are still rolling out that old post that you wrote as though it actually in some way answers the questions that are being asked of you.

    I keep (every time you post it) following your link, hoping that it will be to an article that actually reveals what your beef is with Mary Kay. But it is always that same thing... talking about how to get out of the horror.

    Oh the horror... get out of the horror.... avoid the horror... run away from the horror... don't even look at it, trust me it's horrible... like you are trying to convince yourself that it is horrifying. EVERYONE else is left scratching their heads saying, "what horror?"

    Ironically, the one thing WE have been asking YOU to do, you exhort your readers to do yourself.

    From "2. Declare a crisis" of YOUR VERY OWN PIECE... the one you just linked us to!!??!

    "Do this now. Proclaim the harm your family is suffering due to your wife’s association with Mary Kay Cosmetics is WRONG! Effectively express your objections rationally. Do it often, and then do it some more. Express your objections without anger. Practice alone in front of the mirror or in traffic while driving home. Continue, with regularity, to effectively express your objections rationally."

    Proclaim the harm...

    WHAT HARM? your objections...

    WHAT OBJECTIONS? your objections...

    WHAT OBJECTIONS? your objections...


    (That triplicate was not a mistake or an emphasis on my part... YOU said it three times.)

    You say it over and over again, "express your objections", going so far as to say they should do it effectively and rationally, but you never once in the entire article mention WHAT these objections are.

    Regarding your comment to me, I hope you didn't expect me to be surprised that you can't come up with even one example of what you so freely accuse me of. (It is after all what I keep accusing YOU of... that is making statements you can't back up) Nor should you hope that I am shocked that you try to disguise it as "not wanting to waste your time", though I half hoped you would come up with a slightly more imaginative back door to escape through.

    You are surprised that I am not more willing to admit my leanings? Are you? I think my "leanings" are quite well published here. This blog has about nine months worth of my "leanings" in it. In what way would you like me to be more clear about my "leanings"?

    You're telling me that the "huge pink elephant in your living room" doesn't look good with the drapes? My interior decorator said that it was soooo vogue. Oh well, back to the elephant farm...

    What color do YOU suggest I get?

  88. Attention STRT!! I haven't had a chance to compose the post on the time it takes, and probably won't right away, but .. before you loose your thought, type them up and email them to me at

    and I will put in my thoughts if you didn't already cover them and post it!!

    I just want to make sure when something is posted that may help consultants I don't throw it together and not have it well prepared. If it is to be useful, I want to make sure I go over it a couple of times, not like one of my "rants" that I should take time to proof. hahahahahaa

  89. Another point:

    TRACY - on PT said:
    If the people attending book their hotel through the "nsd approved method" the nsd can get her suite at the hotel for free. That's the most direct benefit. But I'm sure that the company has some data that supports my contention that by and large those who go to seminar order far more products in the couple months after they get back.

    Could it be that they order more product because they got excited and learned things and came home and booked and sold??? It wouldn't be just for Seminar recognition since the next Seminar is a year away.

    If this is a fact then that means Seminar is absolutely beneficial for consultants and perhaps that is why they should go. By not going, you are not helping yourself in your business. Right?

  90. speaking the real truthJune 29, 2008 at 8:04 PM

    For the record, the NSDs do not receive a free room based on the number of bookings. They pay for their room, but receive a free upgrade, meaning they pay for a regular room and get a suite.

    Maybe the PT people want us to stay away from Seminar so that we will not here the company stats and will not see what others have accomplished, and we will not be encouraged and gain belief in ourselves and the company.

  91. Whoa! This thread exploded over the weekend! My comments below are just hipshots to a few things in this thread.

    David, regarding “no means no,” I do think a person’s first No should be respected when it comes to asking for an initial inventory order. Most of us know whether or not we can spare $600 plus at any given moment and if a person says no to that, then a director should back off and not push. My orders always took a week max to arrive from MK. I don’t know anyone who isn’t willing to wait that long for an order, especially if they know in advance that that is how long it’s going to take. Inventory should build as a customer base builds, not before. That’s just my opinion.

    The “gang” comparison Deleted did was simply inflammatory. MKC is a legal corporation in the United States doing business with the intent to make a profit, not to do harm. Gangs are illegal usually having the intent to make a profit through causing harm. Apples to apples, please.

    Regarding the purpose behind those who’ve had a bad experience in MK sharing and documenting their stories, I think it is needed. Just as much as I-Stories are needed to inspire those doing well in MK. As much as some may dislike PinkTruth’s attitude, it provides a place to land for those who have been burned by those who use MK unethically. PTers may have had nothing but a bad experience with MK, so they do tar the whole system with the same brush. That’s their right. They have no responsibility to give equal time to dissenters of their opinion. That’s what the Internet is for. The web is the great equalizer. That’s how I found you guys. PT has a place just like this blog has a place. Because there are tons of women who should never get involved with direct selling because THEY SUCK AT SALES. If PT can spare them financial loss and stress, then I support it wholeheartedly. Those of us who post there on a regular basis have totally moved on with our lives. But if we didn’t continue to be involved in PT as a community, it wouldn’t be there for others to find, rant, accept responsibility (as I did a long time ago) and move on. Just as mk4me has a life outside of MK, I have a life outside (waaaay outside) of PT. But I will always stop by, post and support those finding the listening ear there that was denied them in their MK experience (note, I didn’t say all MK experience). I love the stories on here of IBCs and directors who are doing it right. I say, good on you. Keep it up. I didn’t know you existed until I came here. So your purpose is being fulfilled. :)

    Regarding providing empirical data—that’s a lot to ask of any of us. We are not researchers, we are just regular folks with our own experiences to fall back on. I’d like to see MKC provide empirical data on how great their opportunity is compared to folks who actually attempt to do studies on MLMs. I suppose you might point to the data in the Applause mag, but real honest data would include expenses so that we could see what women are really taking home vs. what goes back into keeping the business running (annual report, anyone?) Personally, I would argue that the popularity of Pink Truth stands as some evidence that MK should do a review of how they do business. I don’t think Corporate means to harm women, but I do think they put profit first. At the very least, they should provide free training (not from the directors who have enough to pay for already, but from Corporate) on real money management and how to keep inventory down while you build a customer base. Raise the cost (if they must) of the starter kit to cover that kind of training in a CD or a book. Teach them the truth of how hard they will have to work, none of this executive-pay/parttime-hours nonsense. Come on. If you want your sales force to be successful, teach them the ins and outs of running a business, not a hobby. As David said, a successful sales force brings in more profit.


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First Post - Why I Started This Blog
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