Thursday, June 19, 2008

More Proof-Don't Do it Wrong if You Want To Succeed

The more I read, the less I wonder why some individuals just don’t work out in Mary Kay, the post actual speaks for itself but the little statements in red are mine. PT is continuing to prove the viewpoint of Balanced MK. Do it right, honestly and ethical and sell the product and this business to work, cheat the system and you will fail.
From a Pink Truth reader: It started for me way back... I joined the unit of a woman that many adore. She's been a million dollar sales director multiple times in her over 20 years. But those of us in her unit found out really quickly how just absolutely selfish she is. My inventory call came pretty fast, right behind the agreement where I was told NOTHING about inventory. I didn't buy any. (hmmm… I guess she wasn’t frontloaded??) But I found myself soon wanting the praise and adoration. I was dishonest, I admit it. I wanted to be liked, and move up fast, and have people notice me. So I signed up my friends and bought their starter kits and purchased their $200 activating order. I sold it all on eBay. I even stretched on eBay to make Star Consultant! LOL! (And who even suggested she do this????)
The night I was finally fed up was the last day of seminar when I got about 50 emails telling me each hour where we were in wholesale, and could we stretch, just for the team, you need it don't you, you want to support us, you want me to walk on stage, you want me to get that trip, you want me, me, me, to get all that cash? So I faded. (Didn’t this writer also want the attention “praise and adoration” too?” – see above paragraph) Then I came back thinking she won't ruin my business! I will just do it without her. But that doesn't happen so easily, so I faded again. (hmmm.. how did her director ruin it the first time? Sending emails??) Then I signed up again years later down the road with someone new, young, and vivacious! She was hot to trot, and the entire seminar knew it. You even know it, you mention her name here in PT many times. If you ever figure out who it is, let me tell you from personal experience... I was NEVER told to do anything dishonest, or forced into inventory, and in fact, I was always scared to say I did things the sleazy way if I did do them, because she would not stand for it. She will never assume you are doing something wrong, but if she knows it for fact, she'll tell you to knock it off. (hmmm… and honest director by her own admission??)
As I went through MK again I became more and more disillusioned. I wasn't built to sell makeup. Some people are and they love it. I don't. I feel that I am built for something different. I was buying stuff just to make goals, I was recruiting ghosts, and those who weren't ghosts weren't working. (She didn’t learn the first time????) It all started to dawn on me when my best and brightest recruit wouldn't quit buying inventory and I just let her knowing full well that it was helping my DIQ and car totals, but she wasn't selling one bit of it. She bought around $8,000 in wholesale and I was letting her. And as she hit her one year mark all I did was pray that she didn't sell back because God forbid she did, I was going to be cut out from that much commission. How terrible, I valued her money over her friendship. I did it with all my recruits who purchased big. (Sounds like a character flaw to me)
Many paragraphs omitted because it is very long and the same thing…
And for you that think you're too hot to trot reading this, I don't care how much money you have or what jewelry you wear. Show me a job that really means something. That stay at home mom you make fun of is giving constant love to her kids. That job I took over your lipstick is providing national security to you here at home and needed information to the troops overseas. That job that many took after MK is paying off the debt you helped them build and giving them medical care they didn't have while you filled their heads up with air. (I can’t remember ever laughing at a stay at home mom, even if we could have afforded it, I don’t think I have the patience to do it, my hat is off to any SAHM. - and I am really fearful if this is the mentality level of the people that are protecting our Country and our troops) So you can keep your HIGHEST CHECK IN ONE MONTH kudos and your I make six figures bull. Because I do, too. ( I am happy so has found something she is enjoys, I hope she is happy, and I hope she is not embezzling from the payroll . )


  1. Okay, bear with me, it's late and I am going to ramble....Again, on this one, I am definitely off the fence and agree with your viewpoint. This is where I think Pink Truth falls short - the women who had these types of issues need some help to resolve them - dig deeper and resolve that particular issue within them that contributed to this situation. I don't feel this gal has completely gone through the whole process yet of recognizing her issues and wanting to fix them. She, like others, still want to be praised and adored - now by the Pink Truth crowd. Ironic, huh? Holding recognition and achievement above the values of inner peace, health and economic security is a road to disaster and I don't care if that road is to an MLM, a corporation or investing in a non MLM business.
    That said, I don't know this person, I don't like to "judge", and I do think there are some women that were manipulated by others in Mary Kay - however, that behavior can occur anywhere in this world! A person reaps what they sow and those that did the manipulation, if they do not repent and change, are going to have face the final judgment. I think it's a little sick that some Pink Truthers seem to want Mary Kay to implode - well, that's an over-reaction and will hurt a bunch of people who have not done anything wrong! Going one step further - do they wish death upon the manipulator (yes, I am being dramatic here)? That is wrong, wrong, wrong. They need to forgive. However, as I tried to point out on a posting on PT (which was pretty much ignored but what the hey) healing takes a long time and everyone is in a different stage. I also find it "interesting" that, a month or so ago, there was a posting on PT re: sending in testimony to court about the tactics and there didn't seem to be a lot of interest in writing letters to send to court. There was talk of going on TV and one person advised that they need to be prepared to answer tough questions. Again, no one seemed to be excited to get their story on TV yet or dare I say, want to do the work to send a letter into court. Why is that? Is it safer to post on the internet and keep churning than put it out there via national TV or send a leter to the court? Is it because you can't control the other folks' side of the story? Okay, off the soapbox for now. Thank you for listening.

  2. These types of stories truly destroy PT's credibility. Here we have a former rep that was NOT frontloaded, was in an HONEST director's unit and (by her own admission) did "sleazy" stuff to get praise and adoration.


    You can't blame MK for an inherent character flaw.

  3. No, but you can blame the system for allowing it to be exploited. That's where Mary Kay falls down. Big time.

  4. Anything can be exploited. As long as someone has a need regardless of whether it be in business, social circles, friendships, and families it can be used against the.

    And please, understand I am not judging this person per se, I am simply pointing out that it isn't the structure of the Company, it is the character of the person. Perhaps she is very needy of praise and recognition but because of this she could be manipulated in loads of ways, mlm, direct sales, and a loads of other ways.

  5. speaking the real truthJune 20, 2008 at 9:31 AM

    Really Anonymous? Did you read what you said? "Blame the system for being exploited". When something or someone is exploited who do you blame? The exploiter or the exploited?

    Do you blame the IRS because people cheat on their taxes? Do you blame the credit card companies for those who scam?

    I do understand what you are saying, but really, what would you like for Mary Kay to do? WE ARE INDEPENDENT. That is a big point that those against Mary Kay seem to want to leave it. How is Mary Kay to track those who order too much, limit our orders? Who wants that? Not me. Let's see, call and verify every single new consultant? Can you imagine the time that would take? They do spot checks, so you cannot say that they do nothing. Do I want product shipped directly to my clients? Usually not! That is just a step away from eliminating my job altogether and my clients buy more when I can see them and talk with them.

    For me, the changes that could be made are limiting the order of new consultants to say $3,000 at most. That way, they can build up if they see that things are going well. I don't think anyone needs to start with $4800, period. I'd like to see the DIQ program return to earning a car first. And, I would like the company to check out directors before they invite them to teach a class, and, for those moving quickly, do call some of their unit members and get a feel for how they are doing it, look at their numbers, etc.

    I don't know that you can blame Mary Kay for those who abuse the business plan. In contradiction to what some say, Mary Kay does not encourage or endorse unethical behaviors in the sales force. Mary Kay is not a big monster to be dealt with.

  6. Selling stuff on Ebay, placing orders and buying product for other consultants is Mary Kay supposed to take any of the blame for even a little bit of what this woman did , especially since the beauty agreement specifically states not to do some of this stuff.
    Anon, your comment is so illogical its not even funny. Its absolutely crazy to blame any kind of entity for just having the ability to be exploited. Like many have already said, anything can be exploited, the fault lies with those that do the exploiting

  7. That just proves how far some will go to try to place blame on something else other than where it should be.

    Take responsibility for your own actions already!

    How can she possibly have done all of this and then say its MK's fault. MK corp spefically tells the consultants NOT to do these things.
    Good Grief!

  8. Quote: When something or someone is exploited who do you blame? The exploiter or the exploited?

    It depends. In this case I'll blame the exploiter. Why? Because people don't necessarily provide all the facts in order for the less experienced to make the best possible business decision for them (them being the new comer). Also, there's a lot to learn and the learning curve can be long.

    In this case I'll follow the money. Who's benefiting from the outcome? To say that the recruiter/director/nsd and Corp are completely "clean" because this girl is lacking emotionally, or however you want to put it, is crap! Everybody in this instance needs to take responsibility for allowing this to happen, including the girl.

    You ask about tracking... the director and recruiter monitor every single order in their unit. I know because my recruiter said that she was able to watch my ordering. They get to see exactly who's ordering when, what, how much, etc. These people, if they're holding their weekly meetings and awarding sales ribbons should be able to do the simple add/debit calculations and know how much product is flying off of her shelves.. or not! To sit back and hold their hands up and say, "Hey, I'm not responsible for what happened!" Is wrong in my books. Who's the person with influence here? Who's the leader? Who's the one suppose to be training this new recruit?

    I also don't agree with anybody coming in with anything more than $600. Too many changes! No clients! Based on my own personal experience, it's just setting a new consultant up for failure. $3600 +/- is waaaay to high a level with no clients -- yet! New recruits need to work to that level, not start at it. How is $3000 benefiting her?

    If the IRS is made aware of cheating, they take great pleasure in pursuing the culprit and wring their scrawny, bony neck for every plumb nickel plus interest owing on arrears. Every body has to pay their taxes. If Mary Kay is made aware of cheaters, what do they do? I'll tell you what they do. Again, based on my own personal experience... NOTHING! They close ranks around the director or NSD or whomever and nothing gets done about it.

    Quote: Like many have already said, anything can be exploited, the fault lies with those that do the exploiting.

    Isn't that what I was saying? The fault lies with those that DO the exploiting.

    Lastly, IBCs and directors aren't independent or free to conduct their business as they so choose. If they were, you wouldn't have rules and anything to blow the whistle on them about. And you couldn't be fired, either. Or to use the Mary Kay lingo, have your Agreement terminated.

  9. Anonymous, by this person's own admission, she hid what she was doing from her Director because her Director would have told her to "knock it off" if she had known.

    This is not "the System." This is the individual.

  10. Again I disagree. If the system (or model) was changed so that stuff like this couldn't happen, for example, implementing a "policy/procedure" change, it wouldn't. In fact "all" of it would stop.

  11. OMG, got a great idea for my next post, but.. gotta run some errands so it will have to wait.

    But to our anonymous 's - if you click in the circle next to "name" after you see the Choose an identity - we will be better able to follow the posts and conversations, even if you just add a number after typing in anon, it would help.

  12. I'm not saying that she has no responsibility for her actions. You better believe she does. I'm sure the interest on her debt is like a knock up side the head every month she pays on her debt. I mean it when I say that I really hope the girl of this post gets help. When you have somebody like this, if it happened in this environment, there may be other ares of her life "in jeopardy". But to say that she hid it from her director...

    She didn't hide anything from her director. If her director is watching her unit orders and she's holding her meetings and awarding those ribbons, she knows exactly what's, what. Even, in all fairness, if she doesn't know the specifics, there's no way she doesn't have strong suspicions about something when she looks at that girl's sales sheets and she's pinning ribbons on her chest.

    If I were the director I would confront this woman. If she denied any wrong doing, I'd be like, "Fine! But if this is what you're doing, beware of the consequences of your actions. And don't say that I didn't warn you!"

    Then I could walk away knowing that I met my obligation to her as leader. Maybe not successfully so from my vantage point, but at least I would've made the attempt.

    That didn't happen in this case. The IBC "hid" her actions and the director "didn't see anything".

  13. This is kind of like hearing the cookie jar lid open and close, not seeing the child walking away with the cookie, but insisting nothing happened because you didn't see the child walk away with the cookie.

  14. So le’me see if I understand this. It’s actually Mary Kay Corporate who is being exploited.


    I think maybe I’ve finally got it. It’s time for me to face reality, face the truth, and see the light.

    It’s amazing what ya can learn if you just allow yourself to hear the real truth. Apparently, what my wife and I (and the rest of our family) experienced was an aberration, a fluke. And all those folks who’ve been trying to warn others about the MK MLM pyramid scheme were (are) simply exploiting MK Corporate. Gee! Who would’a thunk!

    Those dastardly Mary Kay Survivor people! I’ve not figured it out yet but somehow I just knew they all had (have) some ulterior motive. It could be they all get a special set of luggage if they warn X number of women to pass regarding the Mary Kay Cosmetics opportunity. Maybe they get a special plastic ring with a heap of applause. Who knows.

    Seems to me we should demand someone do something to stop the purveyors of untruth, like and the many other sites spreading similar rumors about this wonderful philanthropic organization. And what’s more, somebody needs to squelch those people at the Federal Trade Commission. How dare they even remotely suggest anyone may need to be protected from the tactics of the MK MLM and its ilk. What we need is a set of FTC proposed business opportunity rules making it a federal offense for any woman to talk blasphemously about the go give spirit. And come on now, what women in her right mind doesn’t want to go shopping at Target and also hear: 1.) How sharp she looks, and, 2.) How awesome an opportunity Mary Kay is to all women! I think they should make this a requirement at Target, WalMart, (and all other public shopping places); you’ve got to meet with the Mary Kay Cosmetics IBC before you get your cart.

    And ya know the biggest thing, all these whining negative nellies..... well, they all deserved it. I mean, com’on will ya! If you don’t know enough to sit down with your accountant, your attorney, and your minister and read all the information, twice, well, let’s face it, you’re just asking to be a victim. If you’re one of those shallow people who actually trusts someone, well you’re just an idiot. I say good for’em (us); it’s a valuable learning experience.

    So step up people! Support Mary Kay Cosmetics Corporate! Don’t stand by and allow the continued baseless attacks on this paragon of virtue to go unanswered!


    AKA: Blessed, Loon, Brick, (I forget the rest)

  15. why do people completely disregard the beauty agreement and legal ease on in touch..
    How can you say she did not know about these things,how can you say her director should have told her. How do you know her director didnt tell her, but still after all its in the agreement.

    None of us know exactely what happened which is the problem with these blogs, only one side of a story is shown. How do we know at some point her director did not say somehting to her. She was already inclined to be dishonest, so she could have very well hid everything until she could not hide any longer, then she wants MK to share the blame. WRONG!!

    The company cannot be to blame nor can the diretor because each consultant is told what to do and what not to do, via the beauty agreement, legal ease and countless other training and "do's and donts" that we have to take responsiblity for learning.

    Nobody can claim ignorance in this,you cannot argue with whats in print.

  16. foreverpink, what does the agreement say about inventory? Aside from the buy-back policy? There's zero on the sites about buy-backs being tied to the commissions. There's zero on the site about co-pays, etc., etc. They only ever talk about the flashy feel-good stuff. Not about the consequences of not meeting production, etc.

    I still hold documentation my director sent me (post cards) about me being in a red vibe. But she would never tell me anything about getting there except to recruit and she'd get me in one. Not anything about "maintaining" it. She made it sound like if I did "it", the car was mine. What a liar! I learned after I left that there is so much more to it than that! It's not like I didn't try to research moving up... believe me I went all over the corporate site looking into specifics and found notta. I'm talking nitty-gritty specifics.

    Is there even a director's agreement available for viewing on InTouch? I never saw it. Because a lot about this is spelled out on the agreement, but it's not available for public viewing.

    I don't understand how you can just shrug it off and say, "read the literature!" Not even HALF of what you actually learn by experience is even documented! It's all verbal and up to your director to fill you in.

    You and I will have to agree to disagree. We can only come to the party with our own life experience. You have your opinion based on yours. I come with mine. My experience doesn't mirror this poster, thank God and neither does yours. But you know, I tend to sight her director as being opportunistic simply on the basis of my own experience. That director is not stupid. Anybody who's at that level is pretty astute at interpreting "their numbers".

    My director took advantage of my ignorance, never advised me against anything that she wasn't benefiting from monetarily. Ev-er. It wasn't until hindsight was 20/20 (times too many times to count!) that I finally had enough of being taken advantage of and I cashed in. With absolutely zero direction from my director or recruit I may add! It's not like either of them didn't have the opportunity to explain things to me. My questions were pretty direct. But I had no experience in that specific business to know I was being b.s.'d. It was up to them to provide me with sound business advice and guide me ethically. I followed their direction and every single time it cost me money when it absolutely didn't have to. I complained bitterly to corporate and as I said, they didn't do a thing.

    So there you go. My opinion is that the system is broken, Corporate doesn't care and the players, IF they choose to be, are dirty.

    Weekends here. Yippee! Good food and wine await.

  17. On Mary Kay Intouch there is an an item called the Advance Brochure, it has every single requirement in it from brand new consultant to national, every thing required for the cars including the coop pays if you miss production, etc...

    It spells the entire career path out from A - Z.

    The minute someone gets a consultant number, they have access to Intouch and the site is free.

  18. I knew a very dear elderly director and I remember years ago at a Seminar awards banquet, the lovely director singing the praises of the consultant that had attended Seminar. This consultant had done amazing things in a very short period of time. All of us were in awe of her accomplishments. She sold like she was selling water in the desert, attended every meeting turned in her weekly accomplishment sheets, she was just awesome. She smiled on the congratulations, she told how she got her bookings and how she sold the "You Deserve it All" collections. She was telling how she did so well, sharing her insights. Every director was secretly wishing they had a consultant like her in their unit.

    Well, I heard just a couple of months later, that this poor director who you could tell loved this consultant like a daughter, got slapped upside the head and I mean hard.

    She got a chargeback to the likes that I had never heard of and then the rudest awakening anyone had every gotten. ....Can you guess??

    The consultant was a fake. She had barely sold anything in the year she had been a consultant. She had 10 starter kits she had advertised for sale in their newspaper. You see, it seems that this individual was really "not well".

    Now, as I am sure many are thinking, that the director should have known. Did I mention that this consultant turned in weekly accoplishment sheets every week, yup, every week reporting her sales. She brought people to the meetings that were going to be consultants. But the whole thing was fake. Can you imagine needing attention that badly, and the time to fake accomplishments sheets just to receive praise and recognition.

    I share this with you for all the ones that say "a director should always know", well sometime you just don't. I can not make a consultant turn in accomplishment sheets, if they don't attend meetings regularly, you don't know what they are doing. If you have 100 consultants to take care of and your own client base, you can not babysit everyone.

    Why would someone go to all the trouble? Who knows, but it doesn't matter what system is in place, if someone wants something bad enough, they will find a way to get around the rules.

    Now for discussion, why would this director or anyone think this consultant was lying and making all this stuff up. Should she have hooked her up to a lie detector to see if she was actually selling what she told everyone she was. I can tell you, I met her, I spoke with her, and I believed her, she talked a good talk.

    (And please, I am not saying this happens alot, but I am saying it can happen).

  19. speaking the real truthJune 20, 2008 at 6:47 PM

    I'm not sure where to even begin!

    One of the Anon. bloggers is the one who described MK Corp. and the opportunity as being exploited by some and how MK should stop it.

    As for the "Independent" thing. Just because you are an independent contractor does not mean that you do not have rules to follow or guidelines to consider, nor does it mean that you cannot be fired. My husband uses contractors at his job, but trust me, they are not free to run through his facility doing what they wish.

    As to inventory levels. If someone only has a little bit, what are the chances that she will have what the client orders? I am NOT for huge orders, but I have had MANY consultants who were frustrated by not having what their clients want or need. So, see, there are two sides to every coin. The key is to sell the product. No, she does not have a re-order business yet, but I sold over $500 my second week in the business by holding appointments.

    Let me get this straight about the role of directors, etc. We are to tell every consultant every thing there is to know in this business, not depend on them to read a thing, and then be blamed or at fault for their success of failure in the business? Is that what you are saying "Deleted"? If consultants listened to what I told them, they would have a lot more success in this business, but most do not follow my good advice.

    We cannot keep up with everyone's sales. The overwhelming majority do not turn in their weekly sales, and some actually make them up. Yes, I try to step in if I think someone is ordering more than they are selling, and I have told a consultant not to order any more until she sells some of what she has. But, is it my responsibility to step in, being that she is independent and being that I do not encourage the ordering? Most women do not like being told what to do, whether it is to stop ordering, or to order more!

  20. speaking the real truthJune 20, 2008 at 6:56 PM


    Every consultant SIGNS this agreement. There is no other way to join the company, only the paper agreement (verbage on the back) or online (it is right there on the screen).

    RESPONSIBILITY. She signs to be responsible and of integrity. What else would you like the company to do? Send the FBI out to check out each consultant and her business?

  21. Okay, is this where I get to say (smugly) that that director should've held those commissions in her bank account for a year before she spent them... Perhaps earn interest on the balance incase she had to pay it back? It's in the legalese.

    See how much that stings?

    Can you see my point about how frustrating this business is?

    The power is in the controller. The controller is Corporate.

  22. Yes, we only come to the party with the knowledge we have, however, we all must sign a legally binding contract with the Company. Watch some of the Court shows on tv. When the judge says, well you signed this contract so why do you think you should not have to honor it. And of course, many say, "well, I didn't read it", well I will tell you every judge says the same thing.... you should always read a contract before you sign anything, (or get it in writing when there is an absence of a contract) ignorance is not bliss and won't get you out of a legally binding contract.

    I have heard all my life when starting a small business, you should be prepared to NOT take a profit for 3 -5 years. Now, it is very easy to make a profit in MK way faster than that. How many people open a small business though and aren't prepared to go the distance?

    You might get a director that says, oh, it is easy, the product sells itself, you can make six digits working 2 hours a week, but let's be real, read before you sign and if you intend on operating a business, any business, you should probably have at least an inkling of an idea that it is going to take some work to make a go of it.

    If it was so very easy, everyone in the world would be self employed and rich.

  23. anonymous, why do you say it smuggly? You make a good point, that we never know when someone may use the buyback opportunity.

    Now in 14 years, I have only had 2 chargebacks, one I totally understand the situation the woman was in and totally supported her decision, and the second, still has my cracking up because it was only a couple of dollars and the person continued to buy Mk from her recruiter at full price after getting out of MK.

    After thinking about the idea that technically anyone of us may encounter a chargeback and it will probably come at the worst time (Murphy's law) - I decided to take and start putting some $$ in a separate saving account if and when I ever have a rainy day.

    But on the topic of chargebacks, the Company gives us a warning and time to prepare for it, we don't get blind sided with it so we can prepare, if you know you may be loosing some of your commission money one month, it may be a good idea to book a couple of extra classes to make up the difference. And... if you encourage selling and proper ordering techniques, a chargeback should never be large enough to really cause a major pain.

  24. The above comment was in response to mk4me.

    strt, there's a difference between a contractor and owning your own business. Mary Kay sells the opportunity as "being in business by yourself"/entrepreneur/retailer ("Think like a retailer" is printed all through the Applause mags, at least it was when I was in). All those definitions are defined by many (or leaving the impression) as owning your own business. If they were to say, be a contractor for Mary Kay, that would describe a whole other ball of bees-wax.

    strt quote: Have all of you here read the agreement?

    Yup. After I got out! Seriously! I admit it!! All sorts of wonderful things were explained to me during my time with my director and then told to "sign here". Nothing that happened to me was in violation of the agreement. It was how the director conducted business within the "allowable" scope of the framework" which was dirty. Believe me, there's plenty of latitude there. Like picking $3600 worth of crappy inventory for a newbie! There's nothing anywhere saying that's illegal! But if you want to send it back and exchange stuff for what you can sell, Corporate says No Way! You're responsible for your orders! Doesn't matter if you didn't pick it. Your director is experienced and she had a "right" to choose all that crappy stuff for you because she "knows".

    Where does it say anywhere that the consultant should be choosing her own inventory because she's responsible for it. No exchanges allowed so pick carefully! Umm, nowhere. :)

    I think starting a new consultant with $600 and if she's selling lots increasing her levels in accordance with her sales volume is fair. She'll know within a couple of months what she'll be selling for sure based on her customer preference. 85% sure thing, 15% other 'stuff', like color. Having a keener at $1800 to $2400 in six months isn't unreasonable provided she can continue to turn it over. Meaning provided she can drum up sales outside of her immediate circle of friends and family, to warrant an inventory level that high.

    As for not being able to keep up with everybody's sales. Okay, I get that. But if you have a rogue. A real shooting star. Do you not 'watch' her? Wonder, even?

    Isn't she working in the same market as you and the others? Not just your vicinity but sister directors' vicinities as well? Where are her sales coming from and how come the other girls can't come close to matching her? Not to be offense, but does she come from and Italian clan? Lots of family and very fou-fou?

    Those are the things I think of.

  25. I'm not saying it smugly. I was projecting foreverpink's sentiments as per:

    why do people completely disregard the beauty agreement and legal ease on in touch..
    How can you say she did not know about these things,how can you say her director should have told her


    The company cannot be to blame nor can the diretor because each consultant is told what to do and what not to do, via the beauty agreement, legal ease and countless other training and "do's and donts" that we have to take responsiblity for learning.

    I feel sorry for IBC's who are taken advantage of. I feel sorry for really terrific and empathetic/sincere directors who nurture their downline like they were their own babies, only to be betrayed/deceived.

    On the subject of commissions. Do you think it's fair that if you earned those commissions that you have to pay them back? You know what I've been thinking about that message? Is that regardless what your downline sold, it doesn't matter. You were paid commission on inventory purchased, not product sold.

    I don't agree with that.

    I'm not saying the ugliness is inflicted just via the upline. I'm saying that no matter where you are on the ladder, you better not be bending over to pick up that bar of soap because you have no idea who's behind you.

    Again, the power is in the controller. Who's that? Corporate!

  26. anon, I guess some will see the glass as half empty and others will see it as half full. I see the 90% buyback as a safety net for consultants but also a director knowing she can get charged back if they consultant gets discouraged and sends back the product, in theory, should stay on her toes and look out for the best interests of the consultant.

    A consultant with too much debt and too much inventory is going to bail, a working consultant is going to be moving product, to be working a director should be taking an interest in the consultants success, if she doesn't help, basically she will return the "advance" on her pay if the consultant returns product. So it is in the best interest of the director not to have a consultant overstocked and not selling.

    It should serve as a warning to all - do the business right and you won't have to worry about things.

    I wonder to myself all the time why in the world a director would frontload a consultant with products that she doesn't need, it doesn't make sense to me. Short term it might work to her advantage but in the long run it will come back and bite her in the *ss. And then I believe you end up on the hampster wheel many exdirectors complain about, most of the time you can't tell in my life whether it is the first day of the month or the last day of the month, it is just another day in my life and in my business.

  27. speaking the real truthJune 22, 2008 at 7:58 AM


    As to contractors, etc. We are independent, but are building a business using the MK names and products. Any retailer is subject to constraints put on them by their supplier, like not discounting their product, etc. That does not mean that the retailer is not independent. If you buy a McDonald's franchise, you are an independent business owner, you do not work for McDonald's, but you are subject to their rules per the agreements/contracts that you sign with them. I hope that makes sense. Just because we are under the guidelines and rules of the agreement does not mean that we do not own our own businesses, nor that we are not independent.

    YES! I do watch those who I see ordering a lot of products. I talk with them and see what is going on. I advise them ethically and again, I have told consultants that they did not need to order any more product until they sell something. My question was just about responsibility. I do this, to protect them and myself, but is it my responsibility? I consider a smart business choice and one that reflects my character.

    If you do not encourage consultants to come in with too much inventory, and you focus on selling, I think that chargebacks are rare. And, when they do happen, they usually aren't so much that they really impact your business. For instance, the chargeback on an $1800 whse. inventory would only be $234 for the director, and a maximum of $234 for the recruiter, maybe as little as $72, if she only earned 4% commission on the order.

    It is those directors who build weak and lose, encouraging huge inventory orders, rewarding ordering, and holding debuts for new consultants where they recruit all of their family and encourage them to come in big and help "Sally" achieve such and such that are skating on thin ice. That is setting up a situation to have several consultants return product, and lots of it, at one time.

    As to the fairness, as I mentioned above, it is rarely a huge amount. When you do receive a chargeback, you are given 2 MONTHS NOTICE, so it is not a surprise. AND THE COMPANY DOES NOT TAKE BACK ANY BONUSES (recruiting bonuses, unit volume bonuses, or increase bonuses) EARNED ON THOSE ORDERS!!! I think that is very fair.

    Many have said that we should be paid based on what consultants sell. The current system just pays those commissions up front with the assumption that a consultant will sell the products. If she returns them, the commission is recouped. I know, what about those who do not return the products. That is their choice, the option is open to them.

  28. Okay, so I'm back... I was (one of ) your anonymous pain-in-the-a**es . ;)

    yeah, I signed up for a blog I'll never use. *grrrrr*

    srts - Franchise - Head Office would never allow you to open a franchise in a saturated market. Forget about the restrictions. They (franchise h.o.) has every store pegged on the map. They set you up to succeed -- right down to allowing you to earn advert points (based on sales) so that you have prime time advertising in your viewing area. That's contrary to Mary Kay's no territory policy wherein you could have 25 women working the very same market as you but you'd never know it because Mary Kay doesn't allow you to "show yourself" except in controlled corporate environments. Really, look around at the next 'general' meeting. How many consultants and directors live within a 20 mile radius of you?

    mk4me - you and I see eye-to-eye on the inventory "thing". Seriously, too much is nothing more than self-serving. That director is the same as the consultant ordering with no customer base for accolades.

    foreverpink, I just had the opp to go through the thread again and re-read your posts. You have to be a very direct and honest, black and white person with zero wonderlust. Sorry. I don't mean to sound harsh. I'm not attacking you. But you really come across as having zero empathy for babes in the woods. Many of the women who sign up have zero business skills and really don't know how to research the opportunity. THAT'S why a lot of them are recruited in the first place. Think bout it. They probably said during their recruiting process that they weren't the sales person type. (You dont' have to be!) And that they didn't this or that... to which they would've been told, "That's why you need Mary Kay!!!" *giggle!*

    They were targeted. Can you not understand that? The women with the most debt are the least experienced business women and they are, in short, taken advantage of.

  29. Quoted: "They were targeted. Can you not understand that? The women with the most debt are the least experienced business women and they are, in short, taken advantage of."

    I won't deny that some absolutely fall into this category but I will say this loud and from the rooftops, the majority that are in way too much debt are there because they tried "beating the system" - they got to where they were on fake consultants, buying their prizes, buying their cars, buying there units and then when they couldn't maintain the charade they scream, foul" and it is the bad company's fault.

    Many that are in the biggest debt are the ones saying they are sorry because they were in the "fog" so they manipulated people to get what they wanted or needed, so by their own admission, they did it wrong and then when it doesn't work it is everyone's fault but their own.

    Anyone with some intelligence will realize that if you come into MK and operate it with the guidelines that are spelled out and you buy only product you need to sell, and don't take shortcuts and don't get caught up with beating someone else or looking like something you are not - you will be okay.

  30. speaking the real truthJune 25, 2008 at 5:13 AM

    FlyBye, you bring up a very good point that no one on the against Mary Kay bandwagon will answer. If no one is really selling anything, and consultants are quitting in huge numbers, how can an area be saturated with selling consultants? If the claims are true, wouldn't those numbers be in constant flux? And, if the majority of the consultants are not selling anything, how can the market be dried up?

    As to the contractor issue, I am glad that I can move my business anywhere. But my real point is that when you are selling someone else's product, you are always under guidelines and rules. You are to an extent at the mercy of your supplier, and my supplier has been very good to me! Do you think contractors should blame the corporate entity if their individual business fails?

    FlyBye, I appreciate your calm debate over these issues!

  31. mk4me quote: they got to where they were on fake consultants, buying their prizes, buying their cars, buying there units and then when they couldn't maintain the charade they scream, foul" and it is the bad company's fault.

    I don't completely disagree with what you're saying. There are definitely people in the world who'd rather not take an introspective look at themselves and "own it". It takes a lot of maturity to do that and let's face it, maturity doesn't come with age. My peeve about the some of the nasty outcome being documented on blogs today is that Corporate is not in the dark about what some of these ladies are doing.. and some continue to do. It would be different if they had an emotional soon-to-be ex-consultant/director on the phone and she was screaming about her financial loss and saying, "It's all your fault!!! YOU ruined me!" I, personally, would be like, "Yeah. Not." But when you have a women on the phone telling you during the exit interview what she's seeing... what's it take for corporate to call up her direct report and say, "Is this true? Your numbers kinda substantiate what she's saying.... FYI, if it is, you're outta here. You represent Mary Kay and we're not just talking about your physical appearance, we're talking about your ethics. Golden rule, remember?"

    But they don't. They'll pay people to read the blogs, but they won't pay people to follow-up and clean some house.

    strt quote: . If no one is really selling anything, and consultants are quitting in huge numbers, how can an area be saturated with selling consultants?

    If you have women in your direct vicinity selling, who used to sell but aren't interested in selling anymore (for whatever reason) and therefore, by extension, not interested in the product and grammas and aunties who used to sell, but aren't interested... or women tell you thanks, but no thanks because they have a consultant already, I'd call that saturated. As in an inability to sell your product because environmental factors (lack of interest from immediate market) prevent you from doing so.

    I would be really interested to see how many girls are Mary Kay consultants in my area alone. I (knew) of six within 3km. Then there is a Wal-Mart and a handful of drug stores. Lots of skin care and make-up to be had within 3,000 feet of where I live.

  32. I am a fairly new IBC (just a few months), but have to speak on the saturated market issue. I live in a VERY LARGE city with LOTS of consultants. I was actually concerned about this and was advised to invest a small amount in inventory to test it out and reminded that I had the 90% option available.

    My experience has been the opposite. My best customers are already (or were already) users of the product and were looking for someone who carries product, not wanting to wait weeks to get it. Many have lost touch or bought at a party, loved the product and never heard from the consultant again. In fact, I sometimes have trouble getting facials to show them new things because they already love the product and know what they want. They are just glad "they found me".

    I get internet orders from people referred to my site and they are surprised when I follow up asking if they liked the product. They say yeah, been using it for years. I ask if they have a consultant and they say they just buy off the web, no one has ever contacted them after an order. In fact, most were mailed without ever contacting the person so they never even knew who they were -- they thought the company just mailed the stuff out.

    This continues to boggle my mind. If IBC's had these customers and just offered good customer service the way MK teaches, I would not have nearly as good a customer base as I do in such a short time.

    So, my market may be saturated with consultants and with product, but not with customer service. That is where so many are missing the boat and folding their businesses while mine is flourishing.



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