Monday, June 9, 2008

What do Mary Kay Consultants have in common with College Professors?

For those of you that don't know this, I like to read. One opinion writer that I enjoy reading (because of his style and thought process, not necessarily because I agree with everything he says) is Stanley Fish. He recently wrote a piece about the correlation between professors in colleges and their political views. Specifically, whether or not their political views have any bearing on their job in the classroom. You can read the article I am talking about here. Although you will find that it is actually an article in response to responses he received about another article he wrote. Follow? Good!

So, what does this have to do with Mary Kay? Glad you asked!

There is a section in it that I would like to call attention to because he addresses people claiming that it is impossible for professors to separate their personal views from their role as teachers. The arguments made seem similar to the ones made on this site and on Pink Truth that it is impossible to "do" Mary Kay without lying and cheating. Because Mr. Fish has done such a great job addressing this, and because I would like to share a favorite author of mine with all of you, I present the following excerpt.

The most often voiced objection to my position is that it urges something no one could perform. R.C. declares that “faculty are indeed human and thus tend to inject their own opinions into their teaching.” Mark in A2 agrees: “People inevitably bring their personal politics (and other views) into their role as teachers” and “to say otherwise is either na├»ve or ignorant.”

Evidence for these assertions is largely anecdotal and is often accompanied by statements of incredulity: “It’s pretty clear that Stanley Fish has either been living under a rock for the past ten years or doesn’t know how to add 2 plus 2.” Haven’t I read about all those professors who inject their liberal biases into the classroom and insist on ideological conformity? Yes, I have. There is an entire apparatus dedicated to searching them out and making sure their sins are publicized. But this little “parade of horribles” does not stand for the whole and, as I have already noted, the responses to the column provide evidence (also anecdotal) in the other direction.

The non-anecdotal argument for the it-can’t-be-done objection is philosophical. Teachers come to their task burdened by religious and political commitments, moral philosophies and world views, and they can’t simply unburden themselves when they walk into the classroom. “It is a fallacy to think that the ‘academic’ world is or can be isolated from the political world.”

But isolation from the political world is not required. All that is required is the quite ordinary ability to distinguish between contexts and the decorums appropriate to them. When you enter an institutional setting — an office, a corporate boardroom, a cruise ship, a square dance, an athletic event — the concerns to which you are responsive belong to the setting, and you comport yourself accordingly. Rather then asking, “What do my political and religious views tell me to do?”, you ask, “What do the protocols of this particular endeavor or occasion tell me to do?”

The setting of the classroom is no different, even though the materials you encounter are often fraught with moral and political questions to which you would give very definite answers were you confronted by them in your life outside the academy. As long as you are in the classroom, and as long as you recognize the classroom as a place with its own constituitive demands, those questions will be seen as items in an intellectual landscape and not as challenges to which you directly and personally respond.

Of course, somewhere behind what you are doing will be the larger commitments and world views that make you what you are, but for the duration of your professional performance, those commitments will be on the back burner, exerting some influence to be sure (I am not insisting on purity), but not enough to blur the distinction, basic to the very rationale for higher education, between what you would do were you in the ballot box and what you are pledged to do by virtue of the contract you have signed and the salary you are paid.

That salary is provided on the assumption that in return you will carry out certain duties and refrain from others that belong to different enterprises. If you are unwilling to do so or believe that a general human infirmity prevents you from doing so — a belief that will follow from setting up an impossible standard and concluding from the general failure to live up to it that all distinctions are null and void — then in all conscience you should resign. You should not take the money while you run away from your responsibilities, and you should certainly not excuse yourself for having done so by saying, or thinking, “I couldn’t help it.” Yes you can. Hundreds of thousands do every day. As Susanne Woods put it, “Professionalism is professionalism whatever the profession, and a university professor who actively proselytizes (whatever the political beliefs) is not doing her job any more than a physician who insists on telling me about the virtues of the free market while I’m hooked to an EKG.”

Simply replace the professors with Mary Kay Consultants and the behavior of injecting personal political views with deceitful and manipulative practices and the words above amount to (for me) a resounding, "that is what I have been trying to say"!

I would like to highlight the following:

"Professionalism is professionalism whatever the profession..."

"But this little “parade of horribles” does not stand for the whole and, as I have already noted, the responses to the column provide evidence (also anecdotal) in the other direction."

What do you think?

About politics and professors.

About Stanley Fish - and this article.

About Mary Kay Consultants and ethics.


  1. I have been reading PT and any other MK (pro or con) site, blog, etc. for a while now. And if you put it in context, they are not saying that you cannot "do" MK without lying and cheating. They are saying that you won't get to the real money making stage. You can sell it honestly. But you can't recruit and sell and go far up the ladder and still keep your ethics.

    This is not my view. I cannot express a view since I did not ever recruit anyone, and did not make the big bucks, so I don't know from experience if this is possible. The only person I "know" who seems to be doing it ethically is MK4ME. She's been at it for years and has not reached the higher levels and the amounts of money that she posted is not huge; it's an amount you would expect to be making after being at a job for that many years. Nothing to sneeze at, but nothing to be overly excited about, either. I would love to hear from her on this issue.

    I just proofed my little comment and I don't want anyone to think that I am "knocking" MK4ME's income. She seems perfectly happy with it and that is all that should matter.

  2. MK4ME in my opinion if she wanted to could make BIG money in MK ethically if she wanted to put in 50-60 hours a week. I dont think (and I cant speak for her) she is willing to do that. There is an ethical way to do it. Put in more time than 40 hours, find and mean FIND women who are willing to put in 3000, and 1800 orders and stay on them to hold classes and show them how to do the same thing and push them into becoming directors.
    If you can show a coachable person how to do what you have done it can be done. Most of the women in MK who are making BIG money (and I dont mean 2-3 year Nationals) have been at it for 10 years before they became Nationals. They got in at a time where it was easier to hold home parties and the like and their area is so big that if a director drops out they will inherit the unit so its easier for them. I see nothing wrong with that if someone drops out and the director who took time to help that person move up SHOULD inherit those people for the work she put in. Dual Marketing MLM whatever you want to call it, when you train someone on a job (and I like jobs) they sometimes get promoted over YOU. You can keep your ethics if you are willing to sacrifice some time for a few months or a few years

  3. "Could" do it and actually are doing it are two different things. And one of the recruiting tactics of MK is that you only have to work part time, so the 50-60 hour a week is off the charts.

    "If you can show a coachable person how to do what you have done it can be done." That's a BIG if.

    "Most of the women in MK who are making BIG money (and I dont mean 2-3 year Nationals) have been at it for 10 years before they became Nationals." Is THAT what they mean when they say short time sacrifice for long term gain? 10 years is not a short time, in my life. And that is certainly not how the plan was laid out for me when my director was dangeling the bait.

    I hope I am not coming across like I am attacking you, Colleen. I do not mean to. From reading your other posts you come across as very sweet and trusting. Two very desirable personality traits.

  4. Judi I KNOW you are not attacking me and we can agree to disagree but I think your points are well taken. I have to admit that if things are presented a certain way then there is a misrepresentation.
    I WILL say any woman/or man who is educated and thinks they will make a six figure income selling 10-20 hours a week is on a slow boat to china...LOL I have gotten wrapped up in HOOPLA myself but I have never thought that you can earn an executive income on those types of hours. I guess it depends on what is important to you and I DO believe luck has a lot to do with it too.

  5. speaking the real truthJune 10, 2008 at 7:50 PM

    I do not agree that you cannot move up without doing things unethically. I've recruited many women, have produced several offspring, and had many cars.

    I have had many of those women thank me for introducing them into MK and also express gratitude that I am their director. The offspring directors that I have lost over the years are still on friendly terms with me, and many former consultants are still customers.

    That is how I KNOW that I am ethical, and that it is just not some surface niceties. That I am still on good terms with those who have left the business, etc.

    As for getting to the top, I will. My place in life still requires a lot of time with family, so I feel that I make good money for the hours that I work. No where else could I make what I make and be with my family so much.

    For example, today, we slept in, I worked while my child had breakfast and watched a few cartoons. Then we hit the pool for a couple of hours, back home for a little lunch, etc., then to swim practice. That was followed by grocery store trip and dinner as a family. Then a little TV and hanging out while I worked a little in my office. Not a bad day, I would say. For the other consultants and directors here, I'd love to hear more about your days. What does a typical day look like for you? Are you a member of the 5 o'clock club? I am , the 5pm version! HAHAHAHAHHA!

    The bottom line is, "what works for you?" For me and my family, this definitely works.

  6. speaking the real truthJune 10, 2008 at 7:54 PM

    I should add...some days I work more, some less, but I finished the Queen's Court of Sales last month and will complete a unit circle in a few days.

    I DO NOT work 50-60 hours per week, and the hours that I do work are blended in with my family. Where else can you be doing laundry, running the dishwasher, watching over your children, waiting on the AC repairman, and working, all while in your PJs or a swimsuit? That is what I don't think that people get. Very few of the hours that I work are DEDICATED hours.

  7. Speaking the real truth I totally agree with you but the young NSD's Im not calling any names there is NO WAY they moved up as quickly as they did without a lot of frontloading and I mean suggesting that people get 3000 inventories and making them think it will FLY off of the shelf. If you disagree with me thats fine. Im like you it can be done ethically but when I see people moving up FAST to that amount of time I question how much they are telling people to order

  8. speaking the real truthJune 11, 2008 at 7:12 AM

    Colleen, I am against the "Do it fast at any cost" mentality.

    If someone can manage to put in enough hours to get it done in a few years, then great for her, but I think that would be a real rarity.

    This business does take some time to build to such levels. You have to establish contacts, build them into customers, then share the opportunity and some will become consultants, then build those consultants, some of whom will become directors. THAT TAKES TIME TO DO IT RIGHT.

    I also believe that some of the record breakers have had some unusual life circumstances that helped them to move so quickly. One of them for instance, had no children, lived in an area that experience tremendous financial growth over a period of a few years, and she was able to work with a growing bilingual market. Everyone in Mary Kay does not have those circumstances. Therefore, I don't think her climb to the top is repeatable.

    There is another very successful NSD that I think is unique. Her personality and charisma on stage are unmatched. Can everyone repeat what she has done, no.

    We all have our special little things about ourselves, but some people do have unique life situations that help them. The danger is when we hold these people up and encourage others to "do what they have done."

    Show me someone who held the parties, over time, still managed their family appropriately, still had a rock solid marriage, was still active in church, and who still sells the product and hold appointments even though she is a successful NSD. That is my NSD and I feel that I can follow her model of success in this business. It is something that can be taught to others and that others can duplicate.

  9. Hmmm...STRT...your NSD sounds like my NSD... ;)

  10. speaking the real truthJune 11, 2008 at 2:26 PM

    Shades, no way! Could there be more than one???

    All kidding aside, I think so! IN addition to my NSD, My Sr. NSD worked hard holding classes and appointments and is still a strong seller and recruiter herself.

    They did it the old fashioned way, and guess what, they make money and do not have to worry about it all falling apart!

  11. OH! Ditto again, STRT! LOL My NSD and her Senior teach the same things, run the same program, debuted real close together and their offspring directors who are future NSD's work the same way. My SSD (my sales director's senior) is going for NIQ next year and I want to be one of her 8 second line to help her get there. She still works like a consultant and she teaches all of us how to do what she does. My director still works as a consultant and teaches us as well. And so on down the line. :)

  12. I see on that site where they are saying the 60/40 rule does not work!
    First of all you can do 50/50 or 80/10/10 or whatever it is YOU want to do its your business. I know people who do 50/50 and they are happy! Now they are saying that the training doesnt work and that girl who said she told her director that she was going to work on a training manual and she got into debt!! MK has a training manual its called Intouch and the books that come with your starter kit. Of course there are TONS of free director websites and Unitnet but there is TONS of free training.
    There are people who dont go to meetings who train themselves. Also you learn by doing. If your director is honest she will do a good recruiting interview for you and show you ALL of the inventory levels. I DO want to say that I have heard of directors not showing anything lower than 600 and that is wrong!!!!! Run like the hills if that is happening to you! I would say to make sure that if you have a bad director go to her meetings if you like her but train yourself. There are tons of hotlines to listen to and things on the web. Its your business and you can run it the way you want to. There are bad college professors too just because they went to school does not mean they are good teachers.

  13. speaking the real truthJune 12, 2008 at 12:39 PM

    Guess what, I, nor my Senior or offspring has charged for meetings, and still do not. My local meeting is here in my home and I even provide pizza for dinner, free. When I travel, I foot the bill for meeting space, gas, etc. as well.

    Now, the expensive events and materials offered by some directors and NSDs is one of my gripes. YOU DO NOT NEED THAT STUFF! And, I do wish that the company would put some type of limits on these workshops, etc. Maybe if they are appearing in their official MK capacity, the company could limit the amount charged. I know that many of the attendees are not from their areas, but it is their choice to have the event and allow it to be open to all. Trust me, some of these ladies are making bucket loads of money on these events. Did Mary Kay Ash charge to hear her speak?

    The best way to stop this practice is for directors to stop promoting them and for consultants to stop attending. It hurts us all. Either the consultant is in their area and they are already being paid a commission on them, or they are not a commissioned level, or they belong to someone else. Consultants often spend their 60% re-order money at these events, then do not have money to place the order that they need to place! That means those directors are affecting the bottom line for that consultant, the unit, and their own director. The other scenario is that they spend their profit. That's okay if it is worthwhile, but ladies there is no secret, no magic trick that will totally change your business.

    The one workshop that I do highly recommend is Robert Jones. It is worth every penny and the information provided will help you recoup the cost of the workshop over and over again.

    As for CDs etc., go straight to MK InTouch and shop. There are very inexpensive AND company approved.

  14. Speaking the real truth I really dont have a problem with some bigtime directors charging for events in a hotel IF a consultant wants to pay and its a debut or even a recruiting event especially if its at a hotel because guest are free. Im with you though on the directors who are charging 35-40 dollars for someone to hear how THEY did it....LOL There is only so much one can say about recruiting.

  15. speaking the real truthJune 12, 2008 at 2:01 PM

    I have no problem with someone recouping their costs (reasonable costs!). However, I have heard from a NSD herself that some are making really big bucks off of these events, and some of them include their own people!

    BTW, if you do not know, NSDs receive money from corporate to help cover their expenses related to Go-Give activities.

    My question is why should she profit from teaching and training what she has learned in and through Mary Kay? Was she charged? Years ago, this was not the practice. And, she is paid a commission for training and working with her own people, and is expected to do Go-Give work. If her area grows as a result of a recruiting event, she will be paid commission that. I ask, why should she profit on training and recruiting events?

    Yes, NSDs do sometimes work for no commission, but the payment structure has been re-modeled so as to keep that to a minimum.

    If you are paid to work with your people, and then profit off of their attendance at your events, aren't you being paid twice for the same thing???

  16. Speaking the real truth Im not going to mention any names but how do you feel about NSD's having seperate companies that sell motivational training and speaking tapes (one is an NSD who is african american, the other is an NSD who is battling a severe disease and has for a long time) you know the two directors of whom I speak. I think if its a different company its fine but you and I both know that these tapes and cds are bought by MK consultants because that is who they are marketing to. YES I knew the MK of the 80s and its not like what it is today. For the most part I think its still a good company but there have been some charlatans who have creeped in. Im not speaking of these two Im speaking of the "Do it fast" mentality. One thing I have to give the African American NSD and the other lady whom I truly admire they did not do it fast 5 years or less. They both built a huge area over time and one came in 1988 and the other RT I think came in very early when the Mary Kay Company started. Oh heck Ill mention initials I dont know much about DW and AL the two young ones..I have read that they did 4-6 appointments a week consistently and that is how they moved up so quickly, but I cant help but think that some frontloading went on in between that. I cant judge though since I dont know them. People think there is some secret I mean even if frontloading and pushing DIQ's was done they both still had to work hard to get this far.

  17. Hey all, good to be back, my national was in for a visit and that is why I was absent. What a great time we had. Guess what, she pays for her own ticket, and if necessary, her rental car, her hotel, her meals, etc... Now since we go way back, she stays at my home and I am usually with her so there is no need for a rental car, at the guest events and trainings we charge a very small amount and then donate it to the Mary Kay Ash Charitable Foundation from our unit.

    She believes the more time she spends developing her units, the more successful all of us will be.

    My meetings except if I need a larger room for special events are also free.

    I have always felt funny that a NSD charge big bucks for CD's, Dvd's, books, etc... I could see a small fee for the efforts and materials but I feel it doesn't go along with the whole idea of go -give if the are profiting on these items. (Just my two cents)

    My national along as strt and shades' nsd's teach selling first and foremeost, and I do know we all have different nationals!

    Have you ever noticed how people folk to tragedies, and can't wait to get a glance of accidents, fires, etc...?? It is always big news and talked about. When nothing bad happens, people do not talk about what a great day it is because they didn't hear of anything bad happening, I am starting to think this is what is happening in good versus bad directors and nsds.

    The good is just status quo so and it is just expected. But... the bad isn't suppose to happen so it is a big deal and talked about.

    It is goes along with the theory that it is the squeaky wheel that gets the oil.

  18. Disallusioned with MKJune 12, 2008 at 4:15 PM

    When my director was giving me the speil, showing me her commission check and telling me how much I would make, she also told me that training was free. My first weekly meeting I was told to donate $5. I told her assistant that I was confused. Her boss told me that the training was free. The assistant said that was true. But the room was not. I thought that was just a little bit deceptive. And before I signed up she was waving all those high checks, bragging about how much she made. What? It wasn't enough to cover her business expenses? So I refused to pay for weekly "training". I do not recall her offering to pay for my samples and cotton balls, my business expenses. So why in the world would she assume that her consultants would pay for hers?

    Everybody taking turns bringing snacks, that I can understand. We don't need that to be in business. If everyone agrees, then wonderful. Eat, drink and be merry.

    And to top it off, she was not even being charged for the room she was charging us for. It was her husband's office. He let her use it, free. But she's charging us $5 a week.

    And, yes, I reported her to corporate. She's still a director. If they did anything, it was behind closed doors and her status didn't change. Still driving the car she's co paying for.

    If there were truly money to be made as a director they wouldn't need to charge for rooms, or CD's or training material. They would have enough to cover it all. Or are the directors charging for rooms just being greedy?

  19. My SSD charges $1 per week for her meetings. They are in her home, but since we use all of her samples and products at meetings rather than our own. The $1 is to cover these costs (as well as paper and printing fees for handouts). My director holds her meetings at a public establishment that provides the room and food for a fee. We pay $2 per week to help cover this. Seems fair to me. Even if they are driving free, those costs add up. (They drive free--no copay)

    Now, a director holding a meeting in her home or her husband's office and charging $5 is definitely a problem. She's trying to profit. Perhaps she's not selling her product.

    My NSD sells tapes and CD's to consultants, however, she does not charge huge fees for them. The cost is comparable to the MK Media Source prices. She also sells ministry CD box sets and those are pricier, but they are not geared to MK consultants. They are more for whoever wants them.

  20. Wanted to share that a few years back, I went to every other week for my meetings. People are getting so busy now that we meet every other Monday and then the off Monday's consultants have a night that they can do calls or book a party. I have found this works very well.

    And because long ago when I was a consultant we had trainings, not guests events, I wouldn't kick a guest out of my trainings but I DO NOT encourage them. On some "off" Monday's I will do special guest events, skin care, advanced color, footsie tootsie parties, etc... and then it is about brining guests. I find we can really get more training done w/o guests- I don't have to worry about recruiting and my consultants don't need to have a meeting to do a facial or a party, they can do that on their own. But the training they need. When we do a guest event the concentration is on the type of event, for example if I do a footsie tootsie party, that is what we are doing and then we have a strong closing and then time for guests to order anything they would like from their consultants, - I then briefly go over my company facts, guests fill out a short survey and then off they go.

    If we are going to do a recruiting event, that is what I call it and we invite people who want to hear more about the Company and the opportunity, now fancy that? Just inviting them for what is going on, manipulation not needed, if they are interested they come, if they are not - they don't.

    It really is quite simple and if you operate straight forward and honestly, it goes far smoother- no bumps in the road, and I never have to worry that guests are going to feel that they had been "hijacked".

    Like, Mary Kay always said KISS..
    keep it simple sweetie!!

  21. speaking the real truthJune 13, 2008 at 7:31 AM

    I pretty much agree with mk4me, as usual.

    Guests are usually welcome at our meeting, occasionally we will have a casual consultant only night to really get in some special training or something, but guests are welcome and encouraged, BECAUSE...I think that meetings are one of the best places for prospects to see what we do. They get a makeover, they get to see actual weekly sales reported and hear how those sales were made, they get to see the prizes, meet other consultants and talk with them, see me in action, and see what a meeting and training are like. I have always felt as if that actually shows them about MK rather than telling them. At the end we play a ticket game and they are allowed to ask any question that they want about the opportunity and then ask their opinion. That is the extent of the recruiting spiel, no hard sell, no big pressure to sign. Everything else is just watching us do our thing.

    However, my Sr. didn't ever offer much for guests, so we rarely had any. I did not build to directorship by bringing guests to meetings or large events, it was available to me.

  22. Our meetings always focus on guests. Once in a blue moon we have a meeting for consultants only, but that is rare.
    Every week, guests are treated to a skin care class (or pedicures, or makeovers, whatever we might be promoting) while consultants get the training.
    New consultants are required to observe the skin care class at least 3 weeks in a row before participating in the other training. This is so they can see how the appointment runs and take notes and determine what they might or might not want to incorporate in their own appointments.
    Consultants who have been in awhile will do the skin care class in rotation so our director can do the consultant training.
    We train on different things each week. Sometimes it's money management, other times it is product knowledge, sometimes it's how to do certain types of appointments (such as trunk shows). It's different each week.
    I do kind of like MK4ME's way of meeting every other week.

  23. Disillusioned,

    You make an excellent observation. Please know I don’t seek to minimize the gravity of the deceptiveness you described in your note. Upon reading your comment, though, my first thought was this:

    I wonder how many fewer women would have been victimized if the depth of the deceptiveness perpetrated by those peddling the Mary Kay “opportunity” (and openly supported by Mary Kay Corporate) was limited to merely lying about “free training.”

    I don’t know that I’ve ever been able to use the words “deceptiveness,” “elegant” and “finesse” in the same sentence except when describing Mary Kay Cosmetics. From co-opting the personal faith of recruits, to exploiting cultivated positions of trust, to just plain ol’ in your face lying, this piece of bunko (selling the dream) has to be admired for its level of sophistication. It’s not a wonder some say “…they teach Mary Kay at major business schools.” I don’t doubt it. I think it’s part of the same lecture that covers unindictable check kiting, embezzlement, and fraud.

    There is something that warrants repeating. There are wonderful people involved in Mary Kay Cosmetics. Mary Kay is comprised of people like me and my wife. It’s made up of retired folks, the spouses of old military retirees, transplanted Garden State natives, home schoolers, stay at home Moms, women employed full-time, part-time, and people who simply want to meet other nice people. I suggest to you there is very little difference between the women in Mary Kay and those who’ve never been involved in Mary Kay or any other MLM.

    Consider this illustration (brace yourself, yet another analogy). Picture in your mind’s eye a swollen stream of muddy water. Wading in the stream are women (Independent Beauty Consultants). There is a constant flow of women getting in and women getting out. Some in the stream are kicking the bottom, very intentionally stirring up substantial amounts of mud, greatly adding to the amount of dirt in the water. Many others are merely wading into the stream but, regardless of their deliberate attempts to walk gingerly, they too stir up mud as it is impossible to step into the water without (however slightly or unknowingly) stirring the muddy bottom and adding to the level of mud mixed with the water. The intent and/or moral character of those wading into the stream has nothing to do with whether they can avoid adding to the level of mud in the water. There are some IBCs who profess they are not stirring up mud but are, instead, walking on water. (Read here for a while; you’ll be able to pick out the IBCs who profess an ability to walk on water). In reality, merely agreeing to step into the water adds to the mud problem. Anyone who enters the stream gets dirty, regardless of how much they intentionally stir up mud or attempt to avoid stirring up mud. A gaze up stream reveals the stream is inherently muddy. Although those wading into the stream are adding to the level of mud in the water, the fact of the matter is the stream itself was muddy before anyone ever decided to wade into it. The constant flow of women (IBCs) wading in and out of the stream is not the cause of the dirty water; they simply serve to embolden and propagate it. The best way to avoid the mess is to simply avoid ever wading onto the stream.

    My point is this. While there may be some IBCs who are dishonest and intentionally deviant, it is (I believe) more so the institution of the MK MLM that is inherently flawed, inherently deviant, not the IBCs who wade into it.


  24. speaking the real truthJune 14, 2008 at 7:40 PM

    Deleted, is your wife currently in MK? I am not sure if that is what you were saying or not.

    Here is where I have a problem. You are putting Mary Kay into the same category as every other direct selling business out there, and I disagree with that evaluation.

    I see Mary Kay more as a nice clear lake in which many choose to swim. Sure, there are currents, occasional wakes and weather problems, but all in all, it's a very nice lake. Some stay in the water a long time, some run in and run out, and some go in for a while. Is there something wrong with that water? No, different people have different tastes and needs. People also have different abilities for swimming and floating, and some just wade around and never really try to swim. Now, if someone is dirty, they will drag dirt in to the water, the more dirty people who get into the water, the dirtier that it can get. There are also those who do not want to swim, they only want to ride around in boats, never doing any work, then there are those who will say that someone tried to drown them, when they freely walked into the water. I say filter out the dirty people, those how truly do not want to learn the swim, and those who will blame others for their problems, and leave the lake alone for the rest of us swimmers.

    Come on in, the water is fine. But if you are unwilling to stroke with your arms and kick with your feet, if you want to just ride along on someone else, or if you are already muddy, you might be better off on the shore.

  25. I wouldn't wade in muddy water, yuck.. And if I happen to be in a lake, i would be swimming because I don't like feeling the muddy bottom on my feet.

    Deleted, how do you figure it is okay to leave your house and function in the outsdie world? There are good people in the world, there are bad people in the world. Anyone can get mugged, hit by a car, have an accident well driving, etc... we can not lock ourselves in our house and never leave for fear something may happen to us, we simply protect ourselves, we stay alert, we look in the back seat of a car before we get in, etc... same way entering any venture, there may be pitfalls or dangerous, we as adults, need to watch out for these things both in life and in any business, (including Mary Kay)

    Are you planning on leaving planet Earth because lots of bad things happen to good people??

  26. speaking the real truthJune 15, 2008 at 11:48 AM

    mk4me, great point! If you keep moving and building the right way, you can avoid the mud. In MK, the right way is selling, good money management, holding appts., being consistent, and being ethical, then teaching that to others who want to build a business. Sure, you can just tread water (no growth), but you will not get very far.

    The ones that I see crawling around in the mud are those who feel desperate. They are usually pushing something to happen (DIQ) before they are ready or have built up a potential unit, or have not built on a solid foundation and are looking for a flotation device. Momentum and a good customer base will keep you not only afloat, but moving along at a nice pace!

  27. I am SO glad that deleted has chosen to grace us with yet another illustration.

    It is in these illustrations that we get to understand where his perspective of Mary Kay is askew.

    As mk4me points out, by the logic applied here, you must assign the "muddy river", as an illustrative imagery, to the entire world. Life gets muddy. (perhaps a new life slogan for someone)

    It is unfortunate that deleted's (apparently) limited world view has left him thinking that:

    a. the abuse he and his wife experienced are the "norm" for everyone that gets involved with Mary Kay

    b. the abuse he and his wife experienced are limited to Mary Kay and MLM's.

  28. I wasn't going to ask but it has been mentioned twice, so I guess I just will.

    deleted, you use "you and your wife" has been good people in MK, is your wife still a consultant?

    It is sounding like she is. And if she is, then one can only assume that you must be gaining something from the Company, which ironically you say, has nothing to offer anyone????

  29. Mk4me,

    I hope you’re having a nice evening. In reply to your question, no; my wife and I disassociated ourselves from Mary Kay over a year ago. I ask anyone reading my comments to build your conceptualization of me and my ideas from what I write, not the characteristics others attempt to ascribe to me (i.e., Dave’s most recent comments in this thread).

    Have you ever met anyone who smokes but has never suffered the ill effects of smoking? They’re out there. There are folks who can consume tobacco products who have not (yet) experienced the trauma so commonly associated with same. Some users may die of other causes (even old age) before they ever experience tobacco use related problems. Also consider the benefits research suggests nicotine consumption can produce with regard to weight loss, reduced risk of Alzheimer’s Disease, etc. Yet even considering these and other exceptions, it is widely undisputed that use of tobacco products will most often significantly contribute to health problems.

    Exceptions aside, a good piece of advice for anyone is to simply avoid use of tobacco products. It’s interesting to look at the current collective consciousness of our society with regard to tobacco use and consider cigarettes were once promoted as being good for you.

    “Enriching Women’s Lives”?


  30. D,

    first, I did nothing but point out the narrow perspective that you blast this site with on a regular basis.

    Your tobacco illustration (like all of your others) falls short. Tobacco has been PROVEN to lead to the various forms of cancer you mention.

    I had not heard of the "benefits" you mention

  31. speaking the real truthJune 15, 2008 at 6:35 PM

    Deleted, really? As my teens would say.

    Are you hearing anything that we are saying/writing or are you just 100% convinced that Mary Kay is Satan's evil sister?

    Tobacco, hmmm. It has been proved that EVERYONE who smokes over a period of time will see a negative impact on their health and appearance, EVERYONE. From bad breath to yellow teeth and nails and lung damage (Whether it presents itself outwardly or not), with very few benefits. I did an award winning science project on the effects of smoking in middle school, before everyone else decided that it was bad for you! The same cannot be said for the Mary Kay opportunity. It is only in the extreme cases where harm is done, and it is not innately because they were a Mary Kay consultant, there were other factors a long the way in EVERY case. Those factors range from not selling the product and working with consistency to over-ordering, to having a crappy director, to being deceitful oneself. Those who have had a bad Mary Kay experience will also have one or more of the above factors to blame for their experience.

    As you that are against Mary Kay like to point out, thousands have come and gone through the Mary Kay experience, and the overwhelming majority that I meet have no problem with the company, nor did they lose money, it just was not for them. Many are still customers, and many return to being a consultant later in their lives. It is the rare exception that I meet someone who really dislikes Mary Kay or the opportunity. That's my reality.

    Let me ask you, if Mary Kay is innately horrible, and all involved get burned in someway, why do so many former consultant remain customers of other consultants or return to the company at a later date. Wouldn't you say that those ladies know exactly what the company is about?

  32. Why thank you deleted, yes we are having a wonderful Father's Day evening, just got done playing Texas horseshoes, swimming, and now we are all going to watch Rambo.

    and the only reason I asked deleted is you posted:
    "There are wonderful people involved in Mary Kay Cosmetics. Mary Kay is comprised of people like me and my wife. It’s made up of .."

    The use of are implies currant tense so that is why I asked, had we said have been or were, implying past tense, I wouldn't have asked.

    any way

    To all of our fathers reading, may I wish you all



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