tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post219683035591144658..comments2023-10-14T05:42:23.964-07:00Comments on The Truth About Mary Kay: Your success in Mary Kay - Who is responsible?Jon Bironhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06398467008484819674noreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-81752389643783303952008-06-30T09:46:00.000-07:002008-06-30T09:46:00.000-07:00Whoa! This thread exploded over the weekend! My co...Whoa! This thread exploded over the weekend! My comments below are just hipshots to a few things in this thread.<BR/><BR/>David, regarding “no means no,” I do think a person’s first No should be respected when it comes to asking for an initial inventory order. Most of us know whether or not we can spare $600 plus at any given moment and if a person says no to that, then a director should back off and not push. My orders always took a week max to arrive from MK. I don’t know anyone who isn’t willing to wait that long for an order, especially if they know in advance that that is how long it’s going to take. Inventory should build as a customer base builds, not before. That’s just my opinion.<BR/><BR/>The “gang” comparison Deleted did was simply inflammatory. MKC is a legal corporation in the United States doing business with the intent to make a profit, not to do harm. Gangs are illegal usually having the intent to make a profit through causing harm. Apples to apples, please.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the purpose behind those who’ve had a bad experience in MK sharing and documenting their stories, I think it is needed. Just as much as I-Stories are needed to inspire those doing well in MK. As much as some may dislike PinkTruth’s attitude, it provides a place to land for those who have been burned by those who use MK unethically. PTers may have had nothing but a bad experience with MK, so they do tar the whole system with the same brush. That’s their right. They have no responsibility to give equal time to dissenters of their opinion. That’s what the Internet is for. The web is the great equalizer. That’s how I found you guys. PT has a place just like this blog has a place. Because there are tons of women who should never get involved with direct selling because THEY SUCK AT SALES. If PT can spare them financial loss and stress, then I support it wholeheartedly. Those of us who post there on a regular basis have totally moved on with our lives. But if we didn’t continue to be involved in PT as a community, it wouldn’t be there for others to find, rant, accept responsibility (as I did a long time ago) and move on. Just as mk4me has a life outside of MK, I have a life outside (waaaay outside) of PT. But I will always stop by, post and support those finding the listening ear there that was denied them in their MK experience (note, I didn’t say all MK experience). I love the stories on here of IBCs and directors who are doing it right. I say, good on you. Keep it up. I didn’t know you existed until I came here. So your purpose is being fulfilled. :)<BR/><BR/>Regarding providing empirical data—that’s a lot to ask of any of us. We are not researchers, we are just regular folks with our own experiences to fall back on. I’d like to see MKC provide empirical data on how great their opportunity is compared to folks who actually attempt to do studies on MLMs. I suppose you might point to the data in the Applause mag, but real honest data would include expenses so that we could see what women are really taking home vs. what goes back into keeping the business running (annual report, anyone?) Personally, I would argue that the popularity of Pink Truth stands as some evidence that MK should do a review of how they do business. I don’t think Corporate means to harm women, but I do think they put profit first. At the very least, they should provide free training (not from the directors who have enough to pay for already, but from Corporate) on real money management and how to keep inventory down while you build a customer base. Raise the cost (if they must) of the starter kit to cover that kind of training in a CD or a book. Teach them the truth of how hard they will have to work, none of this executive-pay/parttime-hours nonsense. Come on. If you want your sales force to be successful, teach them the ins and outs of running a business, not a hobby. As David said, a successful sales force brings in more profit.Nicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14641734858682638829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-22760746140437690822008-06-29T20:04:00.000-07:002008-06-29T20:04:00.000-07:00For the record, the NSDs do not receive a free roo...For the record, the NSDs do not receive a free room based on the number of bookings. They pay for their room, but receive a free upgrade, meaning they pay for a regular room and get a suite.<BR/><BR/>Maybe the PT people want us to stay away from Seminar so that we will not here the company stats and will not see what others have accomplished, and we will not be encouraged and gain belief in ourselves and the company.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-84723850063888794732008-06-29T16:34:00.000-07:002008-06-29T16:34:00.000-07:00Another point:TRACY - on PT said: If the people a...Another point:<BR/><BR/>TRACY - on PT said: <BR/> If the people attending book their hotel through the "nsd approved method" the nsd can get her suite at the hotel for free. That's the most direct benefit. But I'm sure that the company has some data that supports my contention that by and large those who go to seminar order far more products in the couple months after they get back. <BR/><BR/>Could it be that they order more product because they got excited and learned things and came home and booked and sold??? It wouldn't be just for Seminar recognition since the next Seminar is a year away. <BR/><BR/>If this is a fact then that means Seminar is absolutely beneficial for consultants and perhaps that is why they should go. By not going, you are not helping yourself in your business. Right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-45485238988038738842008-06-29T09:21:00.000-07:002008-06-29T09:21:00.000-07:00Attention STRT!! I haven't had a chance to compos...Attention STRT!! I haven't had a chance to compose the post on the time it takes, and probably won't right away, but .. before you loose your thought, type them up and email them to me at<BR/><BR/>mk4me2@gmail.com<BR/><BR/>and I will put in my thoughts if you didn't already cover them and post it!! <BR/><BR/>I just want to make sure when something is posted that may help consultants I don't throw it together and not have it well prepared. If it is to be useful, I want to make sure I go over it a couple of times, not like one of my "rants" that I should take time to proof. hahahahahaaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-50178212617269476752008-06-28T23:47:00.000-07:002008-06-28T23:47:00.000-07:00Deleted,First of all, I can't believe that you are...Deleted,<BR/><BR/>First of all, I can't believe that you are still rolling out that old post that you wrote as though it actually in some way answers the questions that are being asked of you.<BR/><BR/>I keep (every time you post it) following your link, hoping that it will be to an article that actually reveals what your beef is with Mary Kay. But it is always that same thing... talking about how to get out of the horror.<BR/><BR/>Oh the horror... get out of the horror.... avoid the horror... run away from the horror... don't even look at it, trust me it's horrible... like you are trying to convince yourself that it is horrifying. EVERYONE else is left scratching their heads saying, "what horror?"<BR/><BR/>Ironically, the one thing WE have been asking YOU to do, you exhort your readers to do yourself.<BR/><BR/>From "2. Declare a crisis" of YOUR VERY OWN PIECE... the one you just linked us to!!??!<BR/><BR/>"Do this now. Proclaim the harm your family is suffering due to your wife’s association with Mary Kay Cosmetics is WRONG! Effectively express your objections rationally. Do it often, and then do it some more. Express your objections without anger. Practice alone in front of the mirror or in traffic while driving home. Continue, with regularity, to effectively express your objections rationally."<BR/><BR/>Proclaim the harm...<BR/><BR/>WHAT HARM?<BR/><BR/>...express your objections...<BR/><BR/>WHAT OBJECTIONS?<BR/><BR/>...express your objections...<BR/><BR/>WHAT OBJECTIONS?<BR/><BR/>...express your objections...<BR/><BR/>WHAT OBJECTIONS?<BR/><BR/>(That triplicate was not a mistake or an emphasis on my part... YOU said it three times.)<BR/><BR/>You say it over and over again, "express your objections", going so far as to say they should do it effectively and rationally, but you never once in the entire article mention WHAT these objections are.<BR/><BR/>Regarding your comment to me, I hope you didn't expect me to be surprised that you can't come up with even one example of what you so freely accuse me of. (It is after all what I keep accusing YOU of... that is making statements you can't back up) Nor should you hope that I am shocked that you try to disguise it as "not wanting to waste your time", though I half hoped you would come up with a slightly more imaginative back door to escape through.<BR/><BR/>You are surprised that I am not more willing to admit my leanings? Are you? I think my "leanings" are quite well published here. This blog has about nine months worth of my "leanings" in it. In what way would you like me to be more clear about my "leanings"?<BR/><BR/>You're telling me that the "huge pink elephant in your living room" doesn't look good with the drapes? My interior decorator said that it was soooo vogue. Oh well, back to the elephant farm... <BR/><BR/>What color do YOU suggest I get?Jon Bironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398467008484819674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-2494233020189955302008-06-28T20:05:00.000-07:002008-06-28T20:05:00.000-07:00Speaking,You ask some good questions. I've spent ...Speaking,<BR/><BR/>You ask some good questions. I've spent too much time on-line today as it is but I will ponder your request. In the mean time, have your read my post at the following location:<BR/><BR/>http://www.pinktruth.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=176&Itemid=54<BR/><BR/>Does this provide any more of a foundation for where we've been? <BR/><BR/>A while ago I began to write about our experience. It's been a healthy exercise. What I've written, though, reveals so much about us. I'm confident we couldn't publish this and remain anonymous. I can understand how this may be difficult to appreciate. I hope you can begin to understand what must clearly appear like stone-walling.<BR/><BR/>Please also consider I'm not making a profit from anyone's decision to forgo the dream. However harsh my presentation may at times seem, please know my intentions are honorable.<BR/><BR/>For now, I'm going to bed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-6311040662226254192008-06-28T19:33:00.000-07:002008-06-28T19:33:00.000-07:00also for deleted.If I understand you correctly, yo...also for deleted.<BR/><BR/>If I understand you correctly, you feel that Mary Kay's business plan is inherently flawed, like gangs, and basically imply that no good can come from that. <BR/><BR/>So, is that to say that if one joins Mary Kay, follows the plan as lined out by corporate literature, sells products, orders what she needs to service her customer base, and if she ever leaves, she sells back the remaining product, that you think she will suffer? If not, then I don't think that you can claim that the plan is inherently flawed.<BR/><BR/>Also, intent comes into play. I understood you to say that Mary Kay intends for women to be hurt or suffer losses. Is that what you meant? If so, that doesn't even make sense, because that dynamic would not have lasted 45 years.<BR/><BR/>If you are not going to answer the tough questions in reference to your posts, and are only going to quibble with Dave over words and semantics, I must tell you that it gets boring. It makes me suspect that you like the attention and that you like to talk a lot. So, for your own credibility and the "balance" that we strive for on this site, please respond to questions that are asked of you. We understand that you do not want to disclose your whole story/identity, that's fine, but all along I've asked several questions that you have ignored.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-38885289828246970462008-06-28T19:27:00.001-07:002008-06-28T19:27:00.001-07:00mk4me, waiting on that post about moving into dire...mk4me, waiting on that post about moving into directorship! I have a lot to say on that topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-52616163511369360302008-06-28T19:27:00.000-07:002008-06-28T19:27:00.000-07:00Dear Deleted, in one of your earlier posts I sense...Dear Deleted, in one of your earlier posts I sensed a human side to you, not the the rhetoric spewing machine that we normally hear from. I though to myself, "okay, now if he will talk in this tone, we can have some decent debate". BUT, then you get all riled up again when we ask for information. <BR/><BR/>I am not asking to see W2s or anything else, no hard proof. Just your story. I don't understand why you are unwilling to share that. By the same token, other posters here share every day, from long posts with all of the sordid details, to short quips about our day and our businesses. With that said, I do not understand how you can accuse Dave of being biased, we've provided info., no solid proof, just info. on our lives in Mary Kay. Is asking the same of you, for the purpose of backing up your opinions, asking too much? Without any info. or details, it just all seems like rhetoric and talk, as if you are speaking in theory, not from experience. I hope that you understand what I am saying.<BR/><BR/>Like the others said, I am very sorry for your son, and in an earlier post expressed my empathy for that situation. However, I left some questions for you in that post that you have not answered. Could you please address those?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-86749474335211706992008-06-28T19:01:00.000-07:002008-06-28T19:01:00.000-07:00For some really weird and warped reasons I am find...For some really weird and warped reasons I am finding Deleted's last two comments to be hilarious!<BR/><BR/>Oh what a lot of words used to say so little except very thinly veiled insults.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-8199543095162472412008-06-28T18:55:00.000-07:002008-06-28T18:55:00.000-07:00Dave,Forget it. I do know you place an unfair evi...Dave,<BR/><BR/>Forget it. I do know you place an unfair evidentiary burden on my posts but you can be sure I’m not gonna waste my time searching for an example of your bias. I do not soften my position in the least. Frankly, I’m just surprised you’re not more willing to admit your leanings. Don’t look now but there’s a huge pink elephant in your living room. It’s Ok though, if you’d like to play and pretend it’s not there. After all, as you pointed out, it’s your blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-69580645957456617012008-06-28T18:40:00.000-07:002008-06-28T18:40:00.000-07:00Deleted -- I was trying to be kind and truly under...Deleted -- I was trying to be kind and truly understand. I found Pink Truth by mistake but read on. I was appalled. I searched more and found this blog, along with several others.<BR/><BR/>That is as far as I will go with this discussion. I now agree with other posters, it is useless to try to gain information from you.<BR/><BR/>A civil discussion is out of the question with you. Your condecending tone in your last response was totally unwarranted and I will not participate.<BR/><BR/>I wanted to sympathize, understand your point of view and get all of the "facts" as you call them. However, your condesending tone has turned me off and I no longer care to understand your point. You have undermined your own credibility and I guess you wallow in your own misery. I choose not to participate.ltcmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11127410684127862668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-29179006206900220632008-06-28T18:25:00.000-07:002008-06-28T18:25:00.000-07:00Itcme,“Evil Empire” may be a bit too strong, but I...Itcme,<BR/><BR/>“Evil Empire” may be a bit too strong, but I can empathize with those who may want to use such a phrase. That’s OK. Don’t beat yourself up. There are many who don’t understand. Time and information are a sure cure. Take a moment and read some of the archives on PinkTruth.com, and similar blogs. These are testimonials from women just like you. It may be too presumptuous of me to suggest here you’ve not already done this. Forgive me if my presumption is inaccurate. I know, though, Mary Kay and its minions make it a practice to warn their flock to avoid “negative” material. I say read everything you can about the “opportunity.”<BR/>Good luck and God bless. <BR/><BR/>DeletedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-38951018411825106252008-06-28T18:19:00.000-07:002008-06-28T18:19:00.000-07:00Deleted,Does that mean you couldn't find any?As I ...Deleted,<BR/><BR/>Does that mean you couldn't find any?<BR/><BR/>As I said,<BR/><BR/>"I KNOW that you are intelligent enough to "get this"."<BR/><BR/>I am not playing word games.<BR/><BR/>Allow me to illustrate from your response to 'itcme' here.<BR/><BR/>Your quote,<BR/><BR/>"I believe the argument over who is more at fault for the MK fiasco (consultants vs. corporate) is a diversionary tactic usually employed by those who often light candles at the MKC alter, as if corporate can do (has done) no wrong. You know, I’m talking about the, “It’s bad IBCs, not the plan” argument. It’s just a smoke screen."<BR/><BR/>I feel like a grammar teacher here, but here goes.<BR/><BR/>You say, "I believe" in reference to the argument being a 'diversionary tactic'.<BR/><BR/>This is fine.<BR/><BR/>I believe that it is NOT a diversionary tactic. We disagree.<BR/><BR/>No big deal.<BR/><BR/>If YOU ask ME why I believe so, I will take the time to explain that if MKC is culpable... well, I wont explain it again, if you want to hear why I believe that you will have to read this post again. I think - although it is long - it does a good job of explaining WHY I believe the argument is NOT a smokescreen.<BR/><BR/>If I ask YOU why you believe it is a smokescreen what answer will you give?<BR/><BR/>Now, the subject of your belief (the argument is a smokescreen) aside, your 'smear' of those that take up the discussion being "those who often light candles at the MKC alter, as if corporate can do (has done) no wrong."<BR/><BR/>YOU KNOW that MOST people here that take up the discussion of who is culpable do NOT 'light candles at the MKC altar' and we NEVER claim that 'corporate can do (has done) no wrong'. Yet you state that as if it is gospel. <BR/><BR/>You IMPLY that ANYONE who brings up the question IS this way and are using it as a smokescreen.<BR/><BR/>Again, we KNOW that you think the problem is the plan.<BR/><BR/>What we want to know is WHY you think the problem is the plan.<BR/><BR/>What specifically is wrong with the plan.<BR/><BR/>Again, please feel free to point out just one time that someone has posted (as you do) that they KNOW something to be true without some explanation of WHY or HOW they KNOW that.<BR/><BR/>I.E. <BR/><BR/>"I KNOW that I made money, because I made the money."<BR/><BR/>(equivalent would be)<BR/><BR/>"I KNOW that I lost money, because I lost the money."<BR/><BR/>"I know that my wife was manipulated because I saw it first hand."<BR/><BR/>These are all fine. I am looking for these. I welcome them whether they make Mary Kay look good or bad.<BR/><BR/>What I am NOT looking for, and I have told you this over and over and over and over, is antagonistic accusations based on unsubstantiated assumptions. <BR/><BR/>Again, please show me ONE (just one time anywhere, anyhow - besides the one that you posted when you were pretending to be an overzealous consultant) time that someone made "antagonistic accusations based on unsubstantiated assumptions" that I did not rebuke similarly to the way that I do to you.<BR/><BR/>I KNOW that you can't. YOU know that you can't.<BR/><BR/>You know what I am asking.<BR/><BR/>Please leave it at that and either begin participating in the way that I ask everyone else to, or, as I suggested, create your own blog (they are free) where you can express yourself as you see fit.<BR/><BR/>Thank you.Jon Bironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398467008484819674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-36784757181019525062008-06-28T17:55:00.000-07:002008-06-28T17:55:00.000-07:00I'm new to this blog, so bear with me if this has ...I'm new to this blog, so bear with me if this has already been discussed.<BR/><BR/>As an IBC, I do treat my business as if it was a McDonald's franchise. It is a business for me, they sell me products, I sell those products within their guidelines. <BR/><BR/>I do not worship at any altar, I worship God. MKC is a company, not an evil empire. MLM is a business model, not a get rich quick scheme (or scheme of any kind).<BR/><BR/>As has been said before, those with good intentions will follow the rules, those with bad intentions will not. And, unfortunately, some may get hurt along the way -- either because the encountered the bad, didn't understand the rules, or were naive.<BR/><BR/>I do not know your situation, so can't comment that you fit into one of the categories above. I just still don't get how MKC is the evil empire here.<BR/><BR/>ltcme (posted as Anon because I can't sign in for some reason)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-90220500878714983602008-06-28T17:29:00.000-07:002008-06-28T17:29:00.000-07:00Dave,No, I am right!You’re playing word games here...Dave,<BR/><BR/>No, I am right!<BR/><BR/>You’re playing word games here. Are you actually suggesting nobody here has ever made unsubstantiated claims about the virtues of MK w/o a qualifying statement couching them as opinion vs. fact? Give me a break and come down off your high horse. <BR/><BR/>Itcme, <BR/><BR/>I’m referring to both. I’m referring to the system, the MLM paradigm. I believe the argument over who is more at fault for the MK fiasco (consultants vs. corporate) is a diversionary tactic usually employed by those who often light candles at the MKC alter, as if corporate can do (has done) no wrong. You know, I’m talking about the, “It’s bad IBCs, not the plan” argument. It’s just a smoke screen.<BR/><BR/>DeletedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-69729866261898620792008-06-28T16:37:00.000-07:002008-06-28T16:37:00.000-07:00Blessed -- When you say"with regard to the experie...Blessed -- When you say<BR/><BR/>"with regard to the experience of a family bilked by the MK MLM cult"<BR/><BR/>are you referring to MKC or independent contractors?ltcmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11127410684127862668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-85630748462433909632008-06-28T16:27:00.000-07:002008-06-28T16:27:00.000-07:00Deleted,Wrong again.This is a simple, IF/THEN equa...Deleted,<BR/><BR/>Wrong again.<BR/><BR/>This is a simple, IF/THEN equation.<BR/><BR/>IF you have proof that what you experienced was by design THEN present that proof.<BR/><BR/>IF you do not have proof THEN don't declare it.<BR/><BR/>I challenge you to show me ONE (just 1) time that someone (besides you) has declared that Mary Kay was a gift from God - or that you could make full time money with part time work - or even, for that matter, that Mary Kay's manipulation of some IS NOT by design - that I did NOT chastise or correct.<BR/><BR/>Many have said that they FEEL Mary Kay is this way, that they BELIEVE that Mary Kay is this way - and even in this thread, I had no problem with YOU saying that you BELIEVE that the vast majority of those in Mary Kay will lose money.<BR/><BR/>But if you are going to say that it is a fact that MLM's ARE this way by design, that Mary Kay destroys their consultants INTENTIONALLY, you better come with the proof.<BR/><BR/>Your "personal observations and conclusions ARE as valid as any others offered here". When they are presented that way. <BR/><BR/>When you step into the realm of stating something as FACT, I will ask you to prove it - or recant.<BR/><BR/>I KNOW that you are intelligent enough to "get this".Jon Bironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398467008484819674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-31841680120865617242008-06-28T16:18:00.000-07:002008-06-28T16:18:00.000-07:00Mk4me & Dave,And thank you both for your kind thou...Mk4me & Dave,<BR/><BR/>And thank you both for your kind thoughts re my son. He’s now 17, healthy and wonderful!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-43406618093495155032008-06-28T16:14:00.000-07:002008-06-28T16:14:00.000-07:00Are you looking for empirical data? You want me t...Are you looking for empirical data? You want me to submit a research paper? I don’t have it. I’ve completed no objective research, no blind or double blind study with control groups. And if I were to complete such a research project, wouldn’t the results be tainted by my clearly published biases re the issues studied? I have simply my (our) personal conclusions and observations to offer. And in my mind, this is very valuable. <BR/><BR/>This is what bothers me Dave. There are uncounted instances on this purportedly objective blog where those espousing the virtue of the “opportunity” have NOT been tasked with providing objective evidence. As I’ve said before, your enforcement of this standard is arbitrary and capricious. Around here, if your pro “dream,” you get a bye. <BR/><BR/>My personal observations and conclusions are as valid as any others offered here. In fact, with regard to the experience of a family bilked by the MK MLM cult, I’m a world renowned expert. I find it offensive that you present this blog as an objective source for all opinions/information but then selectively enforce a subjective standard for evidence. Who is being condescending now?<BR/><BR/>Regardless of your arbitrary standards, I can tell you my conclusions are perfectly valid, certainly as valid as anyone other conclusions offered here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-49092762641325388962008-06-28T15:42:00.000-07:002008-06-28T15:42:00.000-07:00D,I echo mk4me's expression of sympathy for you, y...D,<BR/><BR/>I echo mk4me's expression of sympathy for you, your wife and your child.<BR/><BR/>Also, thank you for toning it down and expressing, in a more conversational tone, your position.<BR/><BR/>You said,<BR/><BR/>"By contrast, multi level marketing will, by design, produce negative outcomes for the vast majority of those who become involved."<BR/><BR/>This is the kind of statement that I am asking you to back up in some way.<BR/><BR/>You can cite PSA (pyramid scheme alert) suggesting that 99% of those involved lose money, but (if you have actually read the report) you and I both know that it doesn't really support that statement at all.<BR/><BR/>Later, you more accurately say,<BR/><BR/>"Perhaps that’s the core of the issue. I believe MK is an enterprise which will assuredly bring eventual loss to the majority of its participants. Some on this blog believe MK is the God sent blessing to women presented in the advertisements. Mk4me, and others see it as just another business venture. We disagree."<BR/><BR/>This indeed IS the core of the issue.<BR/><BR/>I have been saying this from day one.<BR/><BR/>You think the majority will lose money.<BR/><BR/>I think the majority are given the CHANCE to make money and (for the most part) their odds hinge on their actions.<BR/><BR/>We disagree.<BR/><BR/>However, I try to bring something NEW to the table every time I write something here.<BR/><BR/>You, by contrast, just come up with a different illustration to illustrate the same point.<BR/><BR/>What I am asking of you is to realize that we KNOW that you THINK Mary Kay is going to hurt the vast majority of those involved. What we don't know is WHY you think that.<BR/><BR/>Details are not necessarily necessary. Support of your conclusion is what we are asking.<BR/><BR/>Imagine that I told you that water was bad for you.<BR/><BR/>You say, "no, it isn't, in fact, it is good for you".<BR/><BR/>I respond, "water is like nicotine, it will kill you"<BR/><BR/>You inquire, "how do you know?"<BR/><BR/>I respond, "water is like cocaine, it will kill you"<BR/><BR/>And we keep going back and forth.<BR/><BR/>Not really productive is it?<BR/><BR/>My point is that your illustrations, as graphic and demonstrative as they are, do little more than express your view that Mary Kay is bad... AGAIN.<BR/><BR/>What I am asking of you is that you limit your posts to explaining WHY you feel that way.<BR/><BR/>This request incidentally is why I deleted your crocodile post.<BR/><BR/>It is ok to disagree here. Even those of us that 'like' Mary Kay disagree on some of the finer points of the best way to run a business or a unit.<BR/><BR/>It is a GOOD thing to disagree. Exchanging opinions and understanding leads to better understanding. But there is a productive way and an unproductive way of doing so.Jon Bironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398467008484819674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-9369679721170393012008-06-28T15:11:00.000-07:002008-06-28T15:11:00.000-07:00deleted, thank you for the apology.I assure you, I...deleted, thank you for the apology.<BR/><BR/>I assure you, I have no plans on backing down either. <BR/><BR/>Alot of bad happens in the world, lots of bad stuff,murder, rape, kidnapping, etc... by your logic, do you plan on checking out of the planet? By leading by example, by speaking out when things are done wrong, I can be part of a posetive change. Mary Kay started out with just nine people, she didn't not have a plan for people to get used and manipulated. If enough of us that do it the right way are loud enough, we will be heard and will have a posetive influence on those doing it wrong. <BR/><BR/>On a personal note, it seems like the system is starting to correct itself because it seems like the ones that have built strong are NOT the units struggling right now, the ones struggling and stepping down are the ones that have been frontloading and manipulating people and it is catching up to them. I believe (and only time will tell) that we are going to come full circle and that more and more will start to realize doing it wrong might get you there but it won't keep you there. Doing it right, it will work for you and your unit. Everyone wins. <BR/><BR/>(I am very sorry to hear what you, your wife, and your child went thru). There is probably nothing more horrific than watching a child suffer. I do hope that your child is now doing well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-36888997424805516012008-06-28T14:53:00.000-07:002008-06-28T14:53:00.000-07:00Hi Judi, you could call the 800-DIRSOON number and...Hi Judi, you could call the 800-DIRSOON number and see if you can talk with someone in the DIQ dept. Also, when you call the 800 consultant hotline, ask to be connected to your Sales Development Team. <BR/><BR/>If she isn't doing anything blatantly against the rules, they may not can do much, but they do keep records on each consultant. These types of calls do not look good on her record, and could affect them giving her a unit number or at least extensions, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-74557482416844581382008-06-28T14:47:00.000-07:002008-06-28T14:47:00.000-07:00Dave,You make some excellent, valid, points. I’m ...Dave,<BR/><BR/>You make some excellent, valid, points. I’m not sure you intended to provide the illustration you did. But before I go further, let me acknowledge your wonderful ability to express yourself. That combined with what I detect as genuine compassion (to the extent you can detect such things on a blog) make for what I’m sure must be an exceedingly gracious person.<BR/><BR/>You mentioned my cameras, my computer, the internet, my house, my vehicles, trains, planes, etc. Your analogy is incredibly illustrative. Think about it. If all these things are used as designed, absent unintended aberrations, they for the most part cause no harm. The vast majority who use them suffer no ill effects. By contrast, multi level marketing will, by design, produce negative outcomes for the vast majority of those who become involved. The Mary Kay Cosmetics MLM does so by subterfuge. Consider the audacity of an organization which proclaims to “enrich women’s lives” while promoting a system which, (again, by design) bilks women by the shipload and then cleverly maneuvers them to wither off feeling as though they’ve failed. I think your buddy Scam has it right (if I understood his writings); the MLM is on the way out as a marketing modality. I’ve got no problems with Mary Kay Cosmetic products, mind you, my complaints have entirely to do with a marketing plan which victimizes women and their families. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps that’s the core of the issue. I believe MK is an enterprise which will assuredly bring eventual loss to the majority of its participants. Some on this blog believe MK is the God sent blessing to women presented in the advertisements. Mk4me, and others see it as just another business venture. We disagree.<BR/><BR/>Another point: Our story hasn’t been completely told on line. It won’t be told in the near future (beyond what I’ve shared thus far). One day, I believe, I will not only tell our complete story, I’ll tell ya my name, my address, etc. (not that I’ve done a whole lot to hide that anyway). My wife isn’t one to get involved in blogs but she is all for helping others avoid the horror we and many others experienced. My current situation doesn’t allow me to publicly engage in public political debate. For similar reasons, we will continue to use the anonymity offered by the internet when discussing the Mary Kay cult. My point is there is no reason to continue to ask about specifics regarding our Mary Kay experience. We will continue to deliberately withhold that information. I wouldn’t find it surprising, though, if many who’ve read my posts already know the identity of my wife and me. I’ve certainly put enough details out there. So then, to conclude this point, you need not ask again for me to reveal more about our story. I will, however, continue to share our conclusions.<BR/><BR/>Finally, and most importantly for this post, I want to apologize. I specifically apologize to Mk4me. I regret my comment sounded as though I was bating you. As much as we may disagree, I respect your right to make your own decisions about your participation in Mary Kay Cosmetics. I regret my posts have been construed by you and others here as insulting and condescending.<BR/><BR/>Please know, however, I have no plans to yield, here or elsewhere, with regard to my convictions about the way the MK MLM accosts women. My post will continue to be intentionally provocative. I don’t, however, intend to personally insult. If you think about it, the MK community is comprised of women with some of the most desirable qualities; the qualities God blessed me with when he sent my wife. I regret I said what I did about your passion Mk4me.<BR/><BR/>DeletedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1716666792083573252.post-90484087880827659152008-06-28T13:08:00.000-07:002008-06-28T13:08:00.000-07:00Deleted,You are wrong.But since you really can’t s...Deleted,<BR/><BR/>You are wrong.<BR/><BR/>But since you really can’t seem to understand, why don’t we have a face to face discussion about it. But first, in order to avoid being hypocritical, I am going to have to ask you to do a few things.<BR/><BR/>First, destroy your camera. Or cameras. All of them. You see, some people have used cameras to take pictures of people in the act of violating small children and profited by selling them.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of which, cancel your subscription to the internet and destroy your computer. You see some people use computers and the internet to perpetrate unthinkable acts the world over. By owning a computer and by subscribing to the internet, you are an enabler to these horrific happenings.<BR/><BR/>Burn your house to the ground, bring any and all vehicles you own to the salvage yard to be destroyed, because between slimy real estate agents, brokers, drunk drivers, vehicle insurance scams and drug traffickers that use cars to cart illicit drugs you are certainly far too supportive of those things by having a home and vehicles.<BR/><BR/>Now don’t make your way over here by plane, train or automobile… I could cite all kinds of things that would absolutely mortify you about those as well… and, well, as you say being connected to them is like being in a gang.<BR/><BR/>So, I guess you will have to walk out here to Los Angeles. Close your eyes and hold your breath through Las Vegas… I don’t even want to tell you what goes on there. Or better yet, avoid that city altogether.<BR/><BR/>When you get here – and if you have done all these things – I will gladly concede that the people on my blog should rethink their participation in Mary Kay.<BR/><BR/>I hope you understand.<BR/><BR/>Now, please allow me to address what some people here are pointing out about your irritating style.<BR/><BR/>You write in a manner and style that is designed to provoke emotions in people. I know that you know this.<BR/><BR/>How long have you been waiting to say:<BR/><BR/><I>“Your distain for what I say has such depth, such passion! I’ve got to wonder why you can’t simply dismiss my comments w/o the increase in blood pressure. Somehow, it seems, my comments can furiously rattle your chain while (by contrast) cause others to barely flinch. I wonder why. I’ve got to wonder what the potency of my comments says about your world, your MK world.”</I><BR/><BR/>When I was in High School, this was how we ‘played the game’. We were absolutely brutal to each other. When I think back on some of the things that I said to provoke classmates, I shudder. We were all verbally abusive. We tore at any weakness we could find just to elevate our social position.<BR/><BR/>Growing up in NJ may have had something to do with it, or maybe all high school kids are brutal, but I will never forget the first time I turned that vile, manipulative tongue on someone that I really cared about. The look on her face destroyed me. What I said wasn’t even that bad (by my H.S. standards), but for her it was a knife in the stomach. <BR/><BR/>I have tough skin. Your hate filled discharge invokes feelings of sympathy in me. But for others on this blog, for people that don’t understand the place of hurt that your anger is coming from, it is devastating. You are baiting them into having an emotional reaction. You are, in essence, begging them to hate you.<BR/><BR/>Please stop.<BR/><BR/>We WANT to help you tell other people your story. But you won’t tell your story.<BR/><BR/>We WANT to help you warn other people about what happened to you. But you won’t tell us what happened to you.<BR/><BR/>I won’t offer an ultimatum. I am simply asking you to please participate in the discussion.<BR/><BR/>If you want to smear Mary Kay and bait consultants into an angry, heated exchange of sarcastic words, start your own blog. You already have one reader (Judi).<BR/><BR/>This is not the place for it.<BR/><BR/>Thank you.Jon Bironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398467008484819674noreply@blogger.com