Some Pink Food for Thought

Tracy said:

"...I've got to wonder what some publicity of this issue would do to Mary Kay. Do they really want the press getting hold of this? ..."

To which (a little later on) "thinkingpinkstinks" said:

"I understand how you feel Tracy, but unfortunately, at this juncture, I'm not sure what the publicity of this lawsuit would really do. Large corporations are known to be in lawsuits. I can think of a handful right now that have been mentioned in the paper recently. Would it stop me from doing business with them? I'm not sure. MK's position would be noted also, along with the Webers, and it is for the Court to decide."

Very gentle (on 'thinkingpinkstinks' part), but right on nonetheless. Put slightly more bluntly, "Tracy, you need to realize that when something gets "real" press coverage, both sides are presented with a little thing called 'objectivity'."

- just sayin' -

Bonus quote (no comment included)

"Day Radiance lover" said:

"Well, as for me, I would love to give them all of my PINK KRAP, and stop even selling MK, and let them make money off of it, to help their cause. ( I was thinking that, been then came to my senses.) If they would purchase my items, I would gladly sell it to them, and unload it, along with the prizes, and the pink guitar, and the pink piano. Wonder if they would want to sell that pink krap?

As long as we are on the subject, can we all get together, and contact ToP, that all of us will be character witness's for them against MK? Boy, that would be a hoot. I would love to stand in court and tell the real truth of how SD's and SSD's lie, cheat steal, and use other nameless beings with SS cards to climb to the ladder of suckcess.

MKC, HEAR US NOW. WE WILL NOT LET TOP DOWN, AND WE ARE WILLING TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT MKC, AND HOW THEY TREAT US AND OUR CUSTOMERS.

he he heeeee"

((sigh))

Pink Truth still doesn't get it - nor do they seem to care

Mary Kay has (again) joined the Today Show Annual Holiday Toy (gift) Drive - View

Pink Truth took offense and criticized their generosity - View

Several bloggers, myself included, expressed mild to extreme disgust at this senseless and ill informed berating of a corporation trying to help others. - My view - "ME"'s view - (and with a necessary caution regarding potentially offensive language) Duh's view

Pink Truth (although I don't expect them to read any of these for enlightenment) is still making the most ridiculous claims about why this is so "wrong"

Here is a summary of their complaints:

1. The value they use to promote their gift should be their cost, not retail value
2. This is an inappropriate gift because it is not a toy
3. They should not "announce" their charity as it takes away from the "point"

Massive amounts of credit are due to "ShayinSC" who posted this comment on their site:

First of all, even at 1/4 the retail of 2.6 mil, you are still talking $650,000 in products. Nothing to sneeze at, IMHO. I would wager it is about $649,999 more than anyone on here donated, too. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

My daughter is 9. She would love the bank and lip gloss. In fact, she has ASKED FOR lip gloss for Christmas (not that she is getting MK lip gloss, but that's another story).

As far as giving a piggy bank to needy children, it is a BANK, not a mutual fund. You put coins in it, not fortunes. Even needy kids have spare change sometimes.

Did MK donate discontinued products? So what? They didn't HAVE to donate squat. They could have trashed the stuff and taken a tax writeoff. They didn't. Instead, they donated it, and I am sure that if a girl gets lipgloss from MK, she won't KNOW or CARE if it is discontinued. She will just USE it.

Why rip MK apart for doing GOOD deeds? If you are so concerned about these kids, then think about them - are they really going to care about the politics of HOW or WHY they got a gift on Christmas? No. They will simply have something to unwrap and be happy to get.

JMHO Sorry I didn't jump on the bandwagon and rah rah with ya, but my pitchfork is in the shop.

If you really think what MK did was wrong, why not start a PT toy drive for the kids? Just a thought.

and then

As far as why MK did this (for the publicity) - ALL businesses do that. It's called civic marketing.

Even the Today Show is doing this with the toy drive. The toy drive itself is a marketing tool! (Hence, the name - "Today Show Toy Drive.") Does that mean that the Today Show has evil motives for this? Of course not! The are helping kids and getting publicity in return. If they did not want publicity from it, they would call it "The Anonymous Toy Drive" and not publicize the gifts they get/give.

She was banned from Pink Truth for this.

Also, unbeelievable said:

I just wanted to post something I found on another website that is important for everyone who is concerned about the age appropriateness of the lip glosses to read. The blurb is about Quixtar, but it's for the same Toy Drive:

"As part of its One by One Campaign for Children, Quixtar Inc. is donating more than $522,000 in product to NBC's Today Show Toy Drive via a direct selling industry effort to provide holiday gifts for thousands of children nationwide. Quixtar's gift of NAO never accept ordinary™ cosmetics and accessories is aimed at teen girls, one of the groups often forgotten during holiday giving drives. Quixtar's donation is being shipped to non-profit organizations across the country for delivery to disadvantaged children and families, providing in many cases the only gifts some children and teens may receive this holiday season.”

Media Newswire – http://media-newswire.com/release_1058319.html

My heart breaks for those older girls. I bet that most people, when they pick an angel off the angel tree pick littler kids because they are simply more fun to buy for! It seems that on this website, they have also been forgotten. I always think of 7 or 8 year olds when I think of toy drives, but this drive gives to people up to 18. I remember how fun it was to get makeup when I was a teenager.

I think it's just important to have all the info -- you may still think it's a weak gesture, but at least those lip glosses *do* have a target market.

And if you haven't picked an angel from the angel tree yet, consider the older boys and girls so they don't get left out! I know I'll be looking for a teen girl!

Her status there is currently unknown (to me).

Even after these points were made, these thoughts were posted.




Not that it will be heeded, but because I promised to devote energy to this, I will say again, "your complaints are invalid". You should all hang your heads in shame.

1. When an organization chooses to thank its sponsors, it does so by its own criteria. If the Today Show wants to express the value of donated gifts by retail value, that is their prerogative.
2. These are not only appropriate gifts, they are much needed gifts.
3. If Mary Kay should not announce their charitable donation, neither should these organizations:

Kohl's Department Store (www.kohls.com), Mary Kay (www.marykay.com), PartyLite Gifts (www.partylite.com), DK Publishing (www.dk.com), Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc (www.britannica.com), Jakks Pacific, Inc. (www.jakkspacific.com), Quixtar (Alticor) (www.quixtar.com), Microsoft (www.microsoft.com), Build-A-Bear (www.buildabear.com), Latasia (www.latasia.com), K'nex (www.knex.com), Cheerios (www.cheerios.com), Manhattan Toy (www.manhattantoy.com), Cookie Lee (www.cookielee.com), Rounder Records (www.rounder.com), Charmin (www.charmin.com), Udderly Smooth (www.udderlysmooth.com), Stride Rite (www.striderite.com), Imagination (www.imaginationgames.com), Hooked on Phonics (www.hooked-on-phonics.com), Direct Selling Association (www.dsa.com), Ty, Inc. (www.ty.com), Ugly Dolls/Pretty Ugly, LLC (www.uglydolls.com), Jockey Person to Person (www.jockeypersontoperson.com), Little Brown Books for Young Readers (www.lb-kids.com), Kid Galaxy, Inc. (www.kidgalaxy.com), Tupperware (www.tupperware.com), World Book (www.worldbook.com), Pampers (www.pampers.com), Mattel (www.mattel.com), Home Interiors & Gifts (www.homeinteriors.com), Aeropostale (www.aeropostale.com), Goody (www.goody.com), Avon (www.avon.com), Sanrio (www.sanrio.com), Traveling Bear (www.travelingbear.com), 4Life (www.4life.com), Hasbro (www.hasbro.com), JCPenney (www.jcpenney.com), Amazon.com (www.amazon.com), Sara Lee Inc. (www.saralee.com), Swiss Colony Occasions (www.swisscolonyoccasions.com), The Learning Journey (www.thelearningjourney.com), Fisher-Price (www.fisher-price.com), Tonner Doll Company (www.tonnerdoll.com), Zales (www.zales.com), Essential Bodywear (www.essentialbodywear.com), Lia Sophia (www.liasophia.com), Crest Whitestrips (www.whitestrips.com), Freddie Mac (www.freddiemac.com), Kay Jewelers (www.kay.com), Shaklee (www.shaklee.com), New Line Cinema (www.newline.com), The Southwestern Company (www.southwestern.com), LEGO Systems (www.lego.com), Pepsi Cola Company (www.pepsi.com), TFA In-Home (www.franceluxe.com), The Adventures of Thumbs up Johnnie (www.thumbsupjohnnie.com), Lavinia's World (www.laviniasworld.com), American Express (www.americanexpress.com), Buffalo Games (www.buffalogames.com), MasterCard (www.mastercard.com), Thirty One Gifts (www.thirtyonegifts.com), The United States Playing Card Company (www.usplayingcard.com), Razor & Tie Entertainment (www.myspace.com/alvinandthechipmunkssoundtrack), Signature Homestyles (www.signaturehomestyles.com), The Pampered Chef (www.pamperedchef.com), Arbonne (www.arbonne.com), Freelife International (www.freelife.com), High IntenCity (www.highintencity.com), Nature's Sunshine (www.naturessunshine.com), Cutco/Vector (www.cutco.com), United Media (www.unitedmedia.com), LEGOLAND California and Jumeirah Essex House (www.legoland.com and www.jumeirahessexhouse.com), Nuskin (www.nuskin.com), Stampin' Up (www.stampinup.com), Earth's Elements (www.earthselements.biz), Prestige Toy (www.prestigetoy.com), Tastefully Simple (www.tastefullysimple.com), Tahitian Noni (www.tni.com), AFLAC (www.aflac.com), Big Apple Circus (www.bigapplecircus.org), Tanner Companies (www.doncaster.com), Xango (www.xango.com), Oxyfresh (www.oxyfresh.com), TJ Maxx (www.tjmaxx.com), Longaberger (www.longaberger.com), Demarle at Home (www.demarleathome.com), Aqua-Leisure Industries (www.aqualeisure.com), Leapfrog (www.leapfrog.com), Southern Living at Home (www.southernlivingathome.com), AuraStella (www.aurastella.com), Brash Entertainment (www.brashent.com), TARRAH Cosmetics (www.tarrah.com), Lunch Table Inc. (www.proclaimgame.com), Vantel Pearls In The Oyster (www.vantelpearls.com), Detech (www.detech.com), McGraw-Hill Companies (www.mcgraw-hill.com), Butterfly Boutique (www.butterflyboutique.com), Reader's Digest (www.readersdigest.com), All Dazzle (www.alldazzle.com), Baby Crazy (www.babycrazy.com), L'Bel (www.lbel.com), Gems to Jewels (www.gemstojewels.com), Luxe Jewels (www.luxejewels.com), The Happy Gardener (www.thehappygardener.info), Advocare (www.advocare.com), Cedar Valley Publishing (www.cedarvalleypublishing.com), Susan Ross, Michele Baratta atHome (www.shopmichele.com), NSA, Udesign (www.udesignjewelry.com), Briarpatch (www.briarpatch.com), Dechaut Sheer Minerals Makeup (www.healthymineralmakeup.com), Cranium (www.cranium.com), Baby Splendor (www.babysplendor.com), Coin USA, Back Creek Rocking Horse (www.rockinghorseusa.com), Illumin (www.illumin.com)

Tracy, for the sake of those trying to enjoy this holiday, remove your bitter rantings, and the comments that follow. Please, acknowledge that you were wrong on this one, and allow the people receiving these gifts to enjoy them, the corporations involved the goodwill this sort of donation affords them, and the rest of us a chance to enjoy the fact that not all acts of charity are sanctimonious.

Thanks to everyone that is taking a part in trying to reach out this holiday season.

Mary Kay - Today Show Holiday Gift Drive

I am generally an easygoing and mild mannered individual. During the holidays, my pleasant overly optimistic nature only increases. With Christmas tunes in the air, beautiful decorations everywhere, and many constant reminders of the Gift we all received some 2000 years ago in the form of Baby Jesus, it is difficult to snap me out of my “goodwill to ALL men (and women)” mood.

Even with increased stress at work and the fuss of the holidays, I am much more forgiving of others offences, charitable in my “assuming or offering the benefit of the doubt”, and almost borderline obnoxious in my “nothing can bother me” attitude. As devastating as the news has been lately, I always come back to the reason for the season and, as Horatio Gates Spafford so keenly wrote, “It is well with my soul”.

Nonetheless, something has so thoroughly rattled my otherwise amicable soul today that I could not bear to ignore it. In the phenomenal holiday spirit of giving, Mary Kay has generously donated $2.6M in product to NBC’s Today Show’s 14^th Annual Holiday Toy and Gift Drive. “What is wrong with that?” you might ask. Nothing. What has nauseated me so thoroughly that I lost all appetite today was the incredibly insensitive, bitter response to this generosity on Pink Truth.

The release from Mary Kay, as quoted by Pink Truth is:

Tune in your television or set your TiVo! Saturday, Dec. 15, Mary Kay Inc. will appear in a short segment live on NBC’s The Today Show to present a donation to the Today Show Toy Drive.


This is the third year Mary Kay Inc., in conjunction with the Direct Selling Association, has made a donation to the Today Show Toy Drive, which was established to provide gifts to countless women and children nationwide. We're happy to report we have increased our contribution this year to $2.6 million in product from $2.4 million in product in 2006. Mary Kay’s contribution included thousands of Gigi ceramic coin banks and MK Signature® Lip Gloss. Mary Kay Inc. is one of the largest contributors through the Direct Selling Association, with 48 member companies donating approximately $7 million in products and services.


So please tune in to The Today Show, Saturday, Dec. 15 from 7 – 9 a.m. for the short segment outside in the plaza. And you can check the News Desk on the Mary Kay InTouch® Web site later this week for specific appearance time.


Warmest regards,


Randall Oxford
Vice President of Corporate Communications

I first read the lamentably pathetic complaint this morning before heading off to work. Although short and to the point, there is no mistaking the blatant criticism given and pure contempt felt toward this selfless act of charity.

“Mary Kay's donation is neither toys, nor is it much of contribution.”

“So they can trumpet this big donation, which probably cost them less than 1/4 of that retail value AND they probably couldn't do anything with the junky old lipglosses anyway.”

(although you can never be too sure, I believe these sentiments were from Tracy)

Then “The Scribbler” added:

“Ceramic coin banks and lip gloss? Talk about asking for an egg and receiving a scorpion - it's a TOY drive, for crying out loud!

In other news, after Mary Kay's insanely thoughtful, no-holds-barred donation, mall Santa beatings rose by 65%.”

Now while I feel a great deal of (what is the word…) pity for women that are so bitter that they can’t appreciate that a corporation like Mary Kay (say what you will about their business model) would try to help those less fortunate, I expected it to end there. In fact I kind of hoped I would see at least one, “C’mon guys, its charity” comment. There was not one all day. Every single person that commented today (thus far – all 26) berated Mary Kay in some way for their effort. With the exception of ONE person that said, “I have to say that I like the bank... I really do. But I am a dog person and have always been partial to the little foofy ones.” Not quite defending Mary Kay, but we will call it “neutral”.

Now as I said earlier, my tolerance for other peoples odd behavior is abnormally high around the holidays. When someone goes out of their way to do something for someone less fortunate than them, and the gift is rejected, I can often extend understanding toward the rejecter. If someone living on the street was given a water purifier designed to go on the faucet of a sink, for instance, and they rejected it (even violently), I would say, “well maybe that wasn’t the best gift for them”. But when anyone (plural) who HAS plenty, who is TYPING ON A COMPUTER, probably in a WARM HOUSE, and NO IDEA what it feels like to suffer (except maybe the “sting” of evil credit card debt) comes out ATTACKING the people that are trying to help those less fortunate, I have ZERO tolerance.

The Scribbler, NewJourney, pinkpeace, Lazy Gardens, okwithoutMK, Rachel, pinkfoglifted, ContourTHIS, Queen of Section 2, Pink Jihad, makincents, Christine, mkdv24, PinkIsNotMySignatureColor, SuzyQ, Nofoolinme, Raisinberry, Truth Not Tears, Timetogo and Tracy* (if it was indeed you that posted this)… HOW DARE YOU? Do you have no sense of decency? Do you have no shame? Would you prefer that these good people less fortunate than you get nothing? Do you really think that YOU should speak on their behalf? You don’t like Mary Kay lip-gloss? Good for you. But how dare you reject that gift on behalf of the recipients? You don’t like the cute little poodle bank? How “grown up of you”. But what gives you the sense of entitlement to suggest that the “thousands” that will be receiving this instead of nothing this year will reject it?

*note FadingPinkPom is not in this list as she did not actually say anything negative.

I have come to know and understand that Pink Truth does not enjoy research. Factual information eludes the readers AND writers at Pink Truth like Trix Cereal eludes “the Trix bunny”. As such, I have done a little of the research they SHOULD have done before making their unfounded accusations so they can realize just how shameful their behavior was today.

First of all, lets get a little clarity on the charity that Mary Kay has chosen to participate in.

Last holiday season, TODAY viewers, website visitors and corporate contributors teamed up to provide $26 million worth of toys, books, games, clothing, toiletries, electronics, musical instruments, CDs, videos, cosmetics and other suitable gifts to more than four million children via 203 organizations in all 50 states.

…

In 1994, the "TODAY Show Toy Drive" became the first independent gift drive in morning show history. The unique program is designed to provide gifts for impoverished children and teenagers up to age 18 nationwide. This year's effort has already begun, with items being shipped early to communities who have dire need to house and clothe millions of children. It's now time to reach out to every viewer. Please help us during these trying times to give a gift to every child on our list. For many of them, we are the ONLY source of gifts for the holidays.

MSNBC – http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21690771/ (emphasis mine)

This is not a “TOY” drive only. It is a GIFT drive. The target demographic for these gifts ranges all the way up to 18. They are asking for (among other things) toiletries, cosmetics, and other suitable gifts. Lip-gloss is (depending on where you are from) a toiletry or a cosmetic. The “gigi ceramic coin bank” is arguably a very desirable item. My wife “had to have one” when she saw it at seminar. It may not be my “style” exactly, but I know some people (even one or two on Pink Truth) that absolutely love it!

Let’s look at some of the other things being said about this gift drive.

“Bill Kennedy Jr. said he called the "Today Show" right away when he first heard about the gift drive. He said organizers were happy that he called because they thought Udder Cream would be a good gift for adolescent girls, who don't usually receive a lot of donated items.

Redex this year donated 40,000 units of Udder Cream, including four-ounce tubes and six-ounce bottles.”

Vindy.com – http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regional/321139517033456.php

“As part of its One by One Campaign for Children, Quixtar Inc. is donating more than $522,000 in product to NBC's Today Show Toy Drive via a direct selling industry effort to provide holiday gifts for thousands of children nationwide. Quixtar's gift of NAO never accept ordinary™ cosmetics and accessories is aimed at teen girls, one of the groups often forgotten during holiday giving drives. Quixtar's donation is being shipped to non-profit organizations across the country for delivery to disadvantaged children and families, providing in many cases the only gifts some children and teens may receive this holiday season.”

Media Newswire – http://media-newswire.com/release_1058319.html

If any of you over there had taken a little time to look into this, I suspect you would have discovered the same thing I just revealed here. Teen girls as a group are often forgotten during holiday giving drives. Based on that information, I would say that Mary Kay’s gift is more than just appropriate. It seems that it is perhaps amongst the more important gifts, reaching a segment that is often neglected.

It is with a very sad heart that I conclude this. I feel sad for the victims of the many circumstances that have left people in unfortunate scenarios. I feel sad for the many people and corporations that have gone out of their way to give where they were not required to only to be criticized by bitter, indifferent elitists. But most of all, I am sad for the women who are so deceived that they think they are helping people with this brutal, thoughtless attack on the goodwill of a company trying to reach out at this most wonderful time of celebration and giving. I earnestly pray for all of you. It is with great faith in the Power of God and great hope in His care for ALL people that I intercede on your behalf that He would shine His merciful light into the darkness of the pain and misery that has grasped your souls and draw you back into His Kingdom of faith, hope and love. I apologize to any of my readers that are not believers or are offended by the thought of praying, but my heart is so heavy for these women and my belief in the power of God so strong that I can’t help but express my faith in this way. It will not be the norm for this site, I promise.

Pink Truth, I leave you with this. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Your uncanny inability to divide fact from fiction has led you down a dangerous road. Your post today ridiculing a company that is helping others is absolutely and unequivocally unacceptable. If you have any decency, you will take that post down and replace it with an apology of sorts. In your attempt to defame the company you so love to hate, you have inflicted irrevocable damage on the very spirit this holiday season has come to embody. While I will continue to pray for each and every one of you, I will with every ounce of my energy declare the deplorable nature of your actions. This is truly pathetic. In the strongest sense of the words, I am appalled, disgusted, revolted and dismayed. I have nothing left to say.

If you are a reader on Pink Truth and would like to speak out against this atrocity, but fear being banned, I offer you full anonymity. I would not want to lump you in with this group. Please, for the sake of my devastated holiday spirit, let me know that not all of you are this far gone.

Pink Truth; the conversation (part V)

Please read this first - Pink Truth; the conversation

Here is the fourth comment I received.

raisinberry said:

Looking for the real truth... Your wife may be in a unit with a very ethical director, and I think many of them who have started reading PinkTruth have adjusted their procedures to address the complaints that have been presented here. There is a "face" that is put out front in Mary Kay and then there is what happens behind the curtain. Add to that a slow indoctrination in "Mary Kay speak", and all answers scripted, and you have a tightly controlled positive mental attitude world that functions in denial. We all thought MK was on the up and up...and then suddenly things stop adding up.The bottom line is this-The company rewards ORDERS, and with over 20 reasons to ORDER on my INTOUCH prompt (None of which had anything to do with restocking)it suddenly becomes real clear how baited we were to "appear" successful, be a leader, be a winner, speed of the leader, etc....Your wife will have hit and miss sales, if she's good she'll maybe sell 400 to 600 a week, and some weeks zero. If she never gets on the career path you will be safe. If she starts trying to win a car, or go DIQ...She will SPEND her profits on ordering more, and order more on credit to keep in the game. Sorry, but that's just the truth of it.

raisinberry said:

Oh and on the "shunning" thing... I have ben told too many times to count that Directors (especially) who have left were "not willing to work" and "do not call her-she will poison your mind". It breaks my heart that I believed it. These were women who saw through the whole con job and figured they couldn't fight a monster as big as this as an army of one, and so they melt into the background. No one expects Mk to be a cult, and for 14 years I defended AGAINST that label. But it truly is. It has a collective Mind Set that rejects those who might shatter their denial. The company wants a sea of minimum wholesale purchasers that are happy with pin money..and this group needs to be wide and deep...And they get the big POP in production from Car teams and Unit minimums as they "find a way or make a way" to hit 4K or 4,5K..meaning new recruits. The figures for the last "classes held" contest were so pathetic it wasn't even announced.

My responses to raisinberry were two-fold. On the one hand, I have observed her to be inconsistent in her assertions about Mary Kay. (I site one example of this in the comment). As you will see, I flat out tell her that I can't believe her. Could this be where I "ridiculed" members of this community? Is not believing someone and pointing out why the same as ridiculing them? Read my comment here and let me know. If there is any point where I "ridiculed" someone it may be here.

Here is my comment:

raisinberry,

I am not sure that I can trust you as a reputable source of what is and what is not truth.

Several times you have said,

"Here is another one of those strange twists of logic. If you are the Number One selling brand....why in the world would you CHANGE your product?"

or something similar.

And then on this post,

"Mary Kay Cosmetics should be supremely focused on our ability to sell the product to an end user other than ourselves! Why?

To PREVENT sites like this one, from forming! Let's face it (all the director atrocities aside), the problem is SALES to Consumers or lack thereof."

What concerns me here is your lack of ability to recognize and affirm that the company doing things like this (changing their product so that it remains viable in an ever-changing market) is not a giant conspiracy but rather is an attempt to do the very thing you called for, namely helping consultants sell to an end user other than themselves.

Based on these and other things I have read from you on this site, I can only conclude that you can't separate smart business practices from sneaky conspiracies about corporations out to "get you". I am remiss to name one *major* product based business (Pepsi, Burger King, Dell, GE, Ford, etc.) that does not constantly change their offering. If you stay the same, you die. Change is necessary to reach the end consumer.

Is there a curtain behind which consultants, directors, and Mary Kay people at all levels hide behind?

Possibly.

No, in fact, probably... maybe even definitely.

But if you are suggesting that my wife is only "safe" if she does not recruit people and try to make something of herself, I can't trust your judgment. Her director has been in Mary Kay for 22 years, has had a car every year since (I think) her 2nd year. She has helped my wife recruit people, and has NEVER pressured her to buy more than restocking inventory. She has even confided in us that she had to talk to some people that she thought may have been "buying prizes".

We have together decided that she won't buy anything that can't be paid for with the money she has already brought in with sales. Her director never spends a single penny of her commission checks on her business. Neither do we.

I am sorry that you felt you (or others) were baited to buy inventory that you didn't need just to win one of those prizes. Personally, I see those as incentives for my wife to sell product. (another way the company helps you sell) A majority of success in sales is contributed to motivation. They want you to succeed and offer incentives for you if you sell and then order new product.

I am sorry that I can't believe your theories of conspiracy and suggestion that my wife is in the "only good unit", but that is just the truth of it.

And herein lies the problem. You will tell me that my wife is in the only good unit. I will tell you that you were in the only bad unit (not really the "only" bad unit, but you know what I mean).

We can go back and forth all day. The reason that I call myself "looking for real truth" is that I believe that there are good experiences to be had with this company and there are things that should be avoided. I think that armed with a good plan anyone can go into Mary Kay and get what they expect out of it. I am glad to see people (on this site and elsewhere) expressing what happened to them. It is both helpful to them (healing process, knowing you are not alone, etc.) and helpful to future consultants (warning of potential pitfalls). However, it is disappointing to see someone such as yourself saying that this is the fate that will befall all who enter into Mary Kay. Regarding the destiny of newcomers to Mary Kay (my wife included) I cannot rely on your ability to discern and convey the truth.

Sorry, but that's just the truth of it.

--

On shunning,

Thank you for clarifying what you meant by shunning.

So basically, you are saying that consultants (and especially directors) that quit and became known for saying things like, "Mary Kay is evil, stay away" were shunned?

Let's say you owned a hair salon. One day you gave someone a haircut they didn't like. (too short, too thin, whatever) Let's say they started standing outside your salon with a sign saying, "don't go in here, she gives bad haircuts". "She will probably butcher your hair." "I bet you she cuts your ear off" "Everyone that goes into this store is going to regret it" And so on.

Let's further suppose that one of your regular customers came in one day and said, "what's the deal with her?"

Would you tell her, "Oh she has some really good points, you should have coffee with her and hear her out"? No, you would say, "She's a nut, don't listen to her".

If you were one of my directors (assuming I was a director) and were saying some of the things that you say on this site, I also would caution people about talking to you.

It is not because I have something to hide. It is because you are offering inaccurate information and calling it truth.

Again, I have no doubt that many of the testimonies on this site are true. I believe the things you claim happened really did happen. In some instances, I believe that it may even be rampant. I have heard that Mary Kay corporate has had to ban some people from ever selling again when they caught wind of what was going on.

However, to call Mary Kay a cult because some people treat it as one is not pointing out the truth.

There are many people that have started cults in the "Name of God". I don't consider believing in God the same thing as joining a cult because of them.

Some people have (seemingly) started cult-like activity in the "name of Mary Kay". I don't consider joining Mary Kay to be the same thing as joining a cult because of them either.

From what you have said, it seems you had a first-hand experience with the latter. As I have said to hadenough and doneit, I am sorry this was your experience. However forgive me if I don't lend credibility to your thoughts and don't think I am 'shunning' you if I tell others not to heed your advice.

In case reading my entire comment is too daunting, I will summarize the things that I said that I think may be construed as ridiculing raisinberry.

1. I am not sure that I can trust you as a reputable source of what is and what is not truth.
2. What concerns me here is your lack of ability to recognize and affirm that the company doing things like this (changing their product so that it remains viable in an ever-changing market) is not a giant conspiracy but rather is an attempt to do the very thing you called for, namely helping consultants sell to an end user other than themselves.
3. I can only conclude that you can't separate smart business practices from sneaky conspiracies about corporations out to "get you".
4. I am sorry that I can't believe your theories of conspiracy and suggestion that my wife is in the "only good unit", but that is just the truth of it.
5. However, it is disappointing to see someone such as yourself saying that this is the fate that will befall all who enter into Mary Kay. Regarding the destiny of newcomers to Mary Kay (my wife included) I cannot rely on your ability to discern and convey the truth.
6. If you were one of my directors (assuming I was a director) and were saying some of the things that you say on this site, I also would caution people about talking to you.
7. ...you are offering inaccurate information and calling it truth.
8. However, to call Mary Kay a cult because some people treat it as one is not pointing out the truth.
9. However forgive me if I don't lend credibility to your thoughts and don't think I am 'shunning' you if I tell others not to heed your advice.

You really have to read the whole thing! Nonetheless:

I was banned for:

While it is nice that "Looking" is supporting his wife, Pink Truth is not the forum for pro-MK people to promote their agendas. I also won't allow him to ridicule our mission or our members on this site.

Was I ridiculing the agenda here?

Was I ridiculing the members here?

Was I promoting a Pro MK agenda here?

Let me know.

Pink Truth; the conversation (part IV)

Please read this first - Pink Truth; the conversation

Here is the third comment I received.

hadenoughmk said:

looking for real truth said: They are not being begged not to quit or ridiculed. Ah, hahahahahahahahahahaaha!!!! Sorry, don't know what Mary Kay world you live in...but, I BEG to DIFFER!!! I was a Director for almost 8 years- I saw this many times over- then if you did quit- everyone was told you just "didn't work enough" or you "didn't want it enough", you weren't WILLING to work enough". And always- always- always shunned! From NSD down to the blind consultants following their "leaders/Directors" ! I have heard my old NSD say it word for word! So, maybe your wife is one of the rare and polite ones, but from the #1 NSD area I came from, IT AIN"T SO!!!

The " Ah, hahahahahahahahahahaaha!!!!" seemed like she was ridiculing ME. If I were a member in good standing (which I still contend that I should be) this would be ridiculing a member. Not that I mind, but standards should be the same across the board.

Here is my response. It was rather lengthy, so I posted it as two comments there. The break signifies where one comment ended and the other began.

hadenoughmk,

I am sorry that this was your experience. I can only speak from what I have observed in my wife's unit.

I have seen people on her team and other peoples teams quit. Her director has even encouraged people that were growing frustrated to take a step back and evaluate whether or not Mary Kay is the best thing for her current situation.

I have met other directors that think the same way. The consensus (of those that operate this way) is that it is far better to treat people right and trust that when (and if) the time comes that Mary Kay is a match for them, they will feel comfortable coming back to them.

The question on this post linked to an email that offers advice on what to say to someone thinking about leaving Mary Kay. Some excerpts are:

"And while she is still deciding what she wants to do, she’s very strongly considering not sending product back. At the very least, she will leave Mary Kay knowing what a wonderful and caring company we are."

"I made a commitment to you as your Sales Director to help you through every stage of your business, even if that means closing your business"

"I use these interviews as a way to learn as much as I can so I can improve my training within my unit. The best way to learn what doesn’t work in Mary Kay, is to talk with someone who is closing their business."

"I learned several things through this interview:

a. She had NO communication or support from her recruiter once she came into Mary Kay. In fact I learned that her recruiter continued to pursue Hillary’s family and friends as customers and recruit prospects (ACKKK!!!) (A huge red flag to me that I needed to do more Golden Rule Business training!)

b. I learned that she LOVED having me as a director and she thought the training and support from me was great (I took her with me to my classes). However, because she had zero communication with her recruiter, she still felt lost. She didn’t want to bog me down with little questions that she had because she felt that I was probably too busy.

c. I learned that the $3600 package was too big for someone like Hillary. She shared with me in the beginning that she just wanted to do Mary Kay for fun. However when I met with her and her husband during the orientation process (He is in the sales field), I think he wanted to do Mary Kay more than she did!! It made total sense to him and he excitedly bought the $3600 package for her. She told me in her exit interview that this size package was too overwhelming to her."

As I said, the way you (and others) were treated is/was atrocious and unacceptable. No one should be ridiculed or begged to do something they don't want to do. I am sorry that happened to you and the people that were around you.

--

(continued from above)

I don't know the circumstances surrounding the people that quit, but perhaps you can elaborate.

When a director said "she didn't work enough", was it because the person didn't work very hard? If I was a director and a consultant called and said, "this just isn't worth it to me, I don't want to make all those phone calls and drive out to keep all those appointments", and someone asked me, "why did this consultant quit" I would probably say, "she didn't think it was worth her effort" or "she didn't want to work enough". I would not mean that as a ridicule. I would be simply relaying what was told to me. Perhaps that is my "guy" perspective, but I like to tell it like it is.

Also, for clarification, what do you mean by shunned?

Do you mean that after someone quits, her director stopped calling her? Did she stop taking her calls? Did she stop socially visiting with her?

Again, I shudder at the thought of trying to keep up with the expectations that women put on other women, and I know (from hearing women talking about each other) how cold and cruel women can be toward one another. But in what way is someone shunned once they leave Mary Kay? If you leave something (a job, a church, a secret society, etc.) what communication do you expect to maintain there? I work at an advertising agency. Because of a slow period we are experiencing, we had to severely cut the hours of our creative director. By severely cut, I mean he pretty much got laid off, "until further notice". He and I used to have lunch together almost every day. Since he stopped coming in to work on projects, I have not seen him. I have not called him, I have not emailed him. For over two months I have had no contact with the guy that I shared lunch with almost every day for a year.

Perhaps it is a luxury of being a guy but I don't feel shunned by him and I am pretty sure he feels the same. In January when things pick up again we will probably bring him back on. I am sure we will go back to having lunch together.

I share that because I am wondering what was done to qualify as shunning. I am very practical when it comes to relationships. If I have something to offer you, or you have something to offer me, let's talk. If not, I typically don't invest energy or time into a previous relationship.

Not to say that I burn bridges either. I have many friends that I keep in touch with from "back in the day". Camaraderie is very important. If I were in the position of someone who had just quit Mary Kay and felt there was value to me in staying in touch with my ex-recruiter/director, I would certainly pursue it. If the interest was not reciprocated, I would not feel shunned. Most healthy relationships go both ways.

Again, I am sorry that you landed in an area that promoted begging consultants to stay. I am sorry that people were ridiculed for quitting. And I am sorry that people were shunned. Without more to go on, I will have to assume that the "didn't work enough" accusations were misapplied to people that quit for other reasons and were lied about, and that women that had solid friendships prior to Mary Kay were shunned as a result of Mary Kay. These things are not consistent with what I have observed and have come to love about my wife's involvement with Mary Kay.

I can't say it enough, I am sorry this happened to you."

I was banned for:

While it is nice that "Looking" is supporting his wife, Pink Truth is not the forum for pro-MK people to promote their agendas. I also won't allow him to ridicule our mission or our members on this site.

Was I ridiculing the agenda here?

Was I ridiculing the members here?

Was I promoting a Pro MK agenda here?

Let me know.

Pink Truth; the conversation (part III)

Please read this first - Pink Truth; the conversation

Here is the second comment I received.

fellforit said:

"Looking"-With respect, you really have been kept in the dark about this Mary Kay thing. Thousands of women buy product they only hope to sell because the real focus is on what level they can get to next or even worse what level they can help the upline reach. MK doesn't have to worry about customers buying product. The silly little IBC's do plenty of that and then they round up their family and friends to do the same so that they can wear an ugly red jacket or same-as-the-next-gal plum suit. WE ARE THE CONSUMER! No question that your wife may be running her business w/true integrity and care...I tried to do that too and after only 1 month in DIQ I couldn't keep up with the vultures...I wasn't willing to do all the things they wanted me to do to break rules, overspend and stretch the truth. Best to you and to your wife.

Assuming that most (or all) of the members on PT are former IBC's, I would say that this comment was ridiculing of the members... Note that this was not my comment... it was "one of them" You will notice in my response that I point out that she is being demeaning. I can't say for sure, but I don't think that this ridiculing of members got her removed from the society.

Here is my response: (as you will see, I had missed her comment initially and responded to her after responding to some of the other comments, so chronologically, if you were to look at PT, this comment was answered much later)

Fellforit, (sorry, i didn't notice your comment earlier)

With equal respect, why would thousands of women buy product they have no real ability or intention to sell?

I can't understand how you can be so demeaning to so many women. You are in essence saying that thousands of women are so stupid that they are buying (or attempting to buy) levels of recognition.

My wife sold a lot of product and recruited some people who sold a lot of product to earn that red jacket she wears. It is not something that I personally would wear, but it means something to her. She knows she earned it.

She was in DIQ recently and needed $100 more wholesale to meet production for that month. She had more than that in her business (MK) account, so she bought the extra inventory. The next month she would have needed to place $1,000 wholesale to meet production. She did not have it in her account and there was no logical reason to use the credit card (she did not need that much inventory) so she stepped out of DIQ. It was very hard for her... DIQ was very exciting and everyone really wanted her to succeed. But she recognized that her team was not ready, and that she needed a stronger base before becoming a director. So, she is not in DIQ now. She will go for it again when she gets to the point that her teams production justifies it.

I am sure that many other people have become directors in the meantime. Some of her recruits have recruited people that won't "count" towards her down-line when she debuts.

C'est la vie.

It seems to me that after buying a certain amount of product, (starter kit only or a few thousand dollars worth) you would sell that before placing another order. If you decide that $1,000 wholesale is going to be your "on hand" inventory you start with $1,000 of inventory. If you sell $500 (retail) in a month, you only need to replace $250 (wholesale) to maintain your $1,000. If you decide you want to build your inventory, you may use all $500 (I know, less expenses) toward inventory. If you want to get the $9,600 level prize, you should plan on selling $20,000 worth of product.

For directors, it is even more important. If you want to meet production requirements, you had better have a team that is producing. If you don't, you are not ready to be a director. If you want to have a team of people that look up to you and are excited about selling a product, the color of your jacket will not really matter. If you want to wear a plum jacket, I would agree with other people on this site, just go buy a plum jacket. It will be much cheaper.

I am sorry that people were encouraging you to break rules, overspend and stretch the truth. It baffles my mind that people would do those things in the first place, but irks me even more that they would encourage other people to do it.

Thank you for your best wishes, they are greatly appreciated.

I was banned because of:

While it is nice that "Looking" is supporting his wife, Pink Truth is not the forum for pro-MK people to promote their agendas. I also won't allow him to ridicule our mission or our members on this site.

Was I ridiculing the agenda here?

Was I ridiculing the members here?

Was I promoting a Pro MK agenda here?

Let me know.

Pink Truth; the conversation (part II)

Please read this first - Pink Truth; the conversation

Here is the first comment I received:

Doneit said

Dear Looking fo the Real Truth...if you are looking for the real truth you came to the right place and that is Pink Truth...Honey, listen your wife isn't telling you everything. You need to keep your eyes on this site and find the real truth behind MK...because we have been where your wife is and we can tell you alot that you may not know and see. If MK was as simple as buying land and building a brand new home and selling it for a hugh profit if we all had the money to do that we would. But most folks dont have that. They work from pay check to pay check so its not that simple. Thanks anyway...keep reading Pink Truth :)

And I responded with:

Doneit,

What is my wife not telling me?

We also work paycheck to paycheck (more or less), I forgot to mention that we borrowed all of the money for that project from a bank. I don't want to get too far off topic with that thought, I was just trying to illustrate the benefits of recruiting someone as that was the question asked.

I have read quite a bit of Pink Truth and I don't really agree with much of what is said here. I will keep reading though, thanks.

I was banned because of:

While it is nice that "Looking" is supporting his wife, Pink Truth is not the forum for pro-MK people to promote their agendas. I also won't allow him to ridicule our mission or our members on this site.

Was I ridiculing the agenda here?

Was I ridiculing the members here?

Was I promoting a Pro MK agenda here?

Let me know.

Thanks

Pink Truth; the conversation.

Recently Pink Truth posted a list of questions that, left unanswered, would cast the company in a negative light.

However, the answers to those questions tell a different story. Realizing that although Pink Truth (as the name implies) claims to provide the truth, they would not answer these obliquely negative questions in a straightforward manner (if at all) I took it upon myself to answer them here.

You can see my full post here.

In generating and explaining the necessity of that post, I went to the "rules and regulations" of Pink Truth. The rules had previously stated that "no comments contrary to their mission were allowed" or something similar. Upon looking for that statement (in the interest of full disclosure) I discovered a slightly different phrasing. It now reads:

"Comments that are openly hostile to our mission or our friends will not be allowed. Opposing viewpoints that are presented in a respectful fashion will be considered for publication, but may not necessarily be ultimately published."

As an adaptive individual, I felt that perhaps they were now genuinely interested in having those questions answered. Rather than assuming the worst about them, I once again gave them the benefit of the doubt and (selecting the most respectful answers) posted the following comment.

You have raised some interesting questions here. I have some answers. I don’t think that you will agree with me, but respectfully, I submit the following answers.

Why is it that one purchasing the highest dollar amount in products from the company is called “The Queen of Sales”?

It is assumed that products being purchased from the company are being resold. Why would anyone purchase product they had no intention of reselling or using?

Where are the billions per year that Mary Kay Corporate makes from their consultants going?

Have you ever run a business? There are a lot of expenses associated with running a corporation of this size. Where are the billions of dollars that Microsoft makes every year going? I can’t answer that, but why is it important to know that?

What is the motivation of Mary Kay Corporate or the upline to see that consultants sell the product they have already purchased?

If the consultant sells that product she will buy more. Then she will sell that and buy more. Then she will sell that and buy more. How is that not a better plan than a one time purchase? “What is good for the consultant is good for everyone” really makes sense if you just think about it.

Why is there recruiting? If the products are so great and undervalued as to make a 50% profit, why would anyone want to recruit when the product sold so well?

Why does anyone hire people? When you can make money (however much or little) on the effort of someone else it is usually worth while.

We recently bought an acre of property in WA State, built a house on it and sold it. I ‘recruited’ a realtor, a contractor, a painter, a landscaper and many others. They all got paid what they normally get paid and I made money for putting the whole thing together.

Why did I do it? I wanted to make money.

Similarly, when my wife recruits someone, they get paid for their effort. They buy the same product she does and sell it. Provided they sell it for more than their expenses, they are making money. How much they make will obviously vary widely, but they have the ability to make money. She (my wife) makes money based on how well they do. She keeps in close contact with all of her recruits and strives to make sure they are not buying products that are not selling.

People recruit because they are offered an opportunity to make MORE money. It is not a requirement.

Why are people who choose to quit Mary Kay called and begged not to or ridiculed for their decision to quit?

The script in question explains it like this:

“I did my first exit interview using this script (Below) last night with a $3600 inventory. We left each other on a VERY positive note. And while she is still deciding what she wants to do, she’s very strongly considering not sending product back. At the very least, she will leave Mary Kay knowing what a wonderful and caring company we are.”

They are not being begged not to quit or ridiculed. Some people actually care about the problems that others had and want to:
1.Make sure the problem can’t be resolved
2.Find ways to create a better experience for the next person
3.Avoid burning bridges. If someone just wants to take a break, they have options available to them.
4.Make sure that if they do want to quit for good, they recoup as much of their cost as possible.

How is Mary Kay enriching women’s lives…exactly? By providing a product that is needed/wanted?

Yes.

Thanks

This comment sparked some (I felt) good conversation. I was challenged on some of my assertions. I was questioned about specifics of my wife's involvement. All of which I attempted to answer as honestly and respectfully as possible.

Some even commented that they were glad I was "looking for real truth" as my sign in name implied.

By the time I woke up the next morning, I was banned from their site. Interestingly my comments were not deleted. Rather they were further challenged. Some of the questions posed were excellent questions and I would love to answer them. However, I will not be afforded that opportunity.

At 7:25 (5:25 pst) Tracy finally commented:

"While it is nice that "Looking" is supporting his wife, Pink Truth is not the forum for pro-MK people to promote their agendas. I also won't allow him to ridicule our mission or our members on this site."

It is now clear to me that their agenda is to brainwash women into thinking that Mary Kay is as evil as they say it is. I do not ridicule this agenda, I am simply against it. I do not ridicule the members of their site, but I don't agree with what they are doing.

I would be very interested to hear what definition of truth they use in claiming that truth is what they represent.

Ironically, for all their cries of, "Mary Kay is a cult because they won't let people say negative things about the company" is echoed more strongly in their banning of people who say anything contrary to their highly esteemed mission.

Initially my goal in creating this site was to present both sides of the story as a resource to people who were considering whether or not Mary Kay would be a good move for them. I have now added to that mission, "saving women from the cult that is Pink Truth". I am sorry to say that some very intelligent people are being led astray by a charismatic leader. Sound familiar? It should. Pink Truth is brainwashing people to the point that if you say anything positive about Mary Kay, you are not welcome in their community.

I did not promote a "pro MK agenda" as she calls it.

I did not ridicule their mission.

I did not ridicule their members.

I merely answered their questions and posed a few of my own. I challenged their mission. I questioned their staunch believe that Mary Kay is evil. I believe that truth (whatever your definition) requires considering ALL evidence available and discovering the truth based on that.

I have posted my first comment here. The next several posts will be the comments left in response to this comment and my responses to them. I am going to spread it out over several posts so that you, my loyal readers, can comment on individual items.

Please be honest with me. If you feel that I ridiculed their mission or their members, point it out to me. If you feel that I promoted any agenda other than "looking for the real truth" as they claim to, let me know!

If you are joining us from Pink Truth, welcome! Please feel free to jump right in. We believe here that there are problems inherent with Mary Kay. We seek to help people avoid falling into these potential errors and thereby improve their chances of succeeding. We believe that people can succeed in Mary Kay as evidenced by the fact that some do. We believe that some have misrepresented the opportunity to make it sound like success is guaranteed. We aim to warn people that success is not guaranteed.

Please share your experiences and observations if you are willing so that we can build on the foundation that has been developed. If you feel that no one can succeed in this business, you will have to explain why.

Thanks all