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Sunday, December 2, 2007

Pink Truth; the conversation (part V)

Please read this first - Pink Truth; the conversation

Here is the fourth comment I received.



raisinberry said:

Looking for the real truth...

Your wife may be in a unit with a very ethical director, and I think many of them who have started reading PinkTruth have adjusted their procedures to address the complaints that have been presented here. There is a "face" that is put out front in Mary Kay and then there is what happens behind the curtain. Add to that a slow indoctrination in "Mary Kay speak", and all answers scripted, and you have a tightly controlled positive mental attitude world that functions in denial. We all thought MK was on the up and up...and then suddenly things stop adding up.The bottom line is this-The company rewards ORDERS, and with over 20 reasons to ORDER on my INTOUCH prompt (None of which had anything to do with restocking)it suddenly becomes real clear how baited we were to "appear" successful, be a leader, be a winner, speed of the leader, etc....Your wife will have hit and miss sales, if she's good she'll maybe sell 400 to 600 a week, and some weeks zero. If she never gets on the career path you will be safe. If she starts trying to win a car, or go DIQ...She will SPEND her profits on ordering more, and order more on credit to keep in the game. Sorry, but that's just the truth of it.


raisinberry said:

Oh and on the "shunning" thing...

I have ben told too many times to count that Directors (especially) who have left were "not willing to work" and "do not call her-she will poison your mind".

It breaks my heart that I believed it.

These were women who saw through the whole con job and figured they couldn't fight a monster as big as this as an army of one, and so they melt into the background.

No one expects Mk to be a cult, and for 14 years I defended AGAINST that label. But it truly is. It has a collective Mind Set that rejects those who might shatter their denial.

The company wants a sea of minimum wholesale purchasers that are happy with pin money..and this group needs to be wide and deep...And they get the big POP in production from Car teams and Unit minimums as they "find a way or make a way" to hit 4K or 4,5K..meaning new recruits.

The figures for the last "classes held" contest were so pathetic it wasn't even announced.


My responses to raisinberry were two-fold. On the one hand, I have observed her to be inconsistent in her assertions about Mary Kay. (I site one example of this in the comment). As you will see, I flat out tell her that I can't believe her. Could this be where I "ridiculed" members of this community? Is not believing someone and pointing out why the same as ridiculing them? Read my comment here and let me know. If there is any point where I "ridiculed" someone it may be here.

Here is my comment:

raisinberry,

I am not sure that I can trust you as a reputable source of what is and what is not truth.

Several times you have said,

"Here is another one of those strange twists of logic. If you are the Number One selling brand....why in the world would you CHANGE your product?"

or something similar.

And then on this post,

"Mary Kay Cosmetics should be supremely focused on our ability to sell the product to an end user other than ourselves! Why?

To PREVENT sites like this one, from forming! Let's face it (all the director atrocities aside), the problem is SALES to Consumers or lack thereof."

What concerns me here is your lack of ability to recognize and affirm that the company doing things like this (changing their product so that it remains viable in an ever-changing market) is not a giant conspiracy but rather is an attempt to do the very thing you called for, namely helping consultants sell to an end user other than themselves.

Based on these and other things I have read from you on this site, I can only conclude that you can't separate smart business practices from sneaky conspiracies about corporations out to "get you". I am remiss to name one *major* product based business (Pepsi, Burger King, Dell, GE, Ford, etc.) that does not constantly change their offering. If you stay the same, you die. Change is necessary to reach the end consumer.

Is there a curtain behind which consultants, directors, and Mary Kay people at all levels hide behind?

Possibly.

No, in fact, probably... maybe even definitely.

But if you are suggesting that my wife is only "safe" if she does not recruit people and try to make something of herself, I can't trust your judgment. Her director has been in Mary Kay for 22 years, has had a car every year since (I think) her 2nd year. She has helped my wife recruit people, and has NEVER pressured her to buy more than restocking inventory. She has even confided in us that she had to talk to some people that she thought may have been "buying prizes".

We have together decided that she won't buy anything that can't be paid for with the money she has already brought in with sales. Her director never spends a single penny of her commission checks on her business. Neither do we.

I am sorry that you felt you (or others) were baited to buy inventory that you didn't need just to win one of those prizes. Personally, I see those as incentives for my wife to sell product. (another way the company helps you sell) A majority of success in sales is contributed to motivation. They want you to succeed and offer incentives for you if you sell and then order new product.

I am sorry that I can't believe your theories of conspiracy and suggestion that my wife is in the "only good unit", but that is just the truth of it.

And herein lies the problem. You will tell me that my wife is in the only good unit. I will tell you that you were in the only bad unit (not really the "only" bad unit, but you know what I mean).

We can go back and forth all day. The reason that I call myself "looking for real truth" is that I believe that there are good experiences to be had with this company and there are things that should be avoided. I think that armed with a good plan anyone can go into Mary Kay and get what they expect out of it. I am glad to see people (on this site and elsewhere) expressing what happened to them. It is both helpful to them (healing process, knowing you are not alone, etc.) and helpful to future consultants (warning of potential pitfalls). However, it is disappointing to see someone such as yourself saying that this is the fate that will befall all who enter into Mary Kay. Regarding the destiny of newcomers to Mary Kay (my wife included) I cannot rely on your ability to discern and convey the truth.

Sorry, but that's just the truth of it.

--

On shunning,

Thank you for clarifying what you meant by shunning.

So basically, you are saying that consultants (and especially directors) that quit and became known for saying things like, "Mary Kay is evil, stay away" were shunned?

Let's say you owned a hair salon. One day you gave someone a haircut they didn't like. (too short, too thin, whatever) Let's say they started standing outside your salon with a sign saying, "don't go in here, she gives bad haircuts". "She will probably butcher your hair." "I bet you she cuts your ear off" "Everyone that goes into this store is going to regret it" And so on.

Let's further suppose that one of your regular customers came in one day and said, "what's the deal with her?"

Would you tell her, "Oh she has some really good points, you should have coffee with her and hear her out"? No, you would say, "She's a nut, don't listen to her".

If you were one of my directors (assuming I was a director) and were saying some of the things that you say on this site, I also would caution people about talking to you.

It is not because I have something to hide. It is because you are offering inaccurate information and calling it truth.

Again, I have no doubt that many of the testimonies on this site are true. I believe the things you claim happened really did happen. In some instances, I believe that it may even be rampant. I have heard that Mary Kay corporate has had to ban some people from ever selling again when they caught wind of what was going on.

However, to call Mary Kay a cult because some people treat it as one is not pointing out the truth.

There are many people that have started cults in the "Name of God". I don't consider believing in God the same thing as joining a cult because of them.

Some people have (seemingly) started cult-like activity in the "name of Mary Kay". I don't consider joining Mary Kay to be the same thing as joining a cult because of them either.

From what you have said, it seems you had a first-hand experience with the latter. As I have said to hadenough and doneit, I am sorry this was your experience. However forgive me if I don't lend credibility to your thoughts and don't think I am 'shunning' you if I tell others not to heed your advice.


In case reading my entire comment is too daunting, I will summarize the things that I said that I think may be construed as ridiculing raisinberry.

1. I am not sure that I can trust you as a reputable source of what is and what is not truth.
2. What concerns me here is your lack of ability to recognize and affirm that the company doing things like this (changing their product so that it remains viable in an ever-changing market) is not a giant conspiracy but rather is an attempt to do the very thing you called for, namely helping consultants sell to an end user other than themselves.
3. I can only conclude that you can't separate smart business practices from sneaky conspiracies about corporations out to "get you".
4. I am sorry that I can't believe your theories of conspiracy and suggestion that my wife is in the "only good unit", but that is just the truth of it.
5. However, it is disappointing to see someone such as yourself saying that this is the fate that will befall all who enter into Mary Kay. Regarding the destiny of newcomers to Mary Kay (my wife included) I cannot rely on your ability to discern and convey the truth.
6. If you were one of my directors (assuming I was a director) and were saying some of the things that you say on this site, I also would caution people about talking to you.
7. ...you are offering inaccurate information and calling it truth.
8. However, to call Mary Kay a cult because some people treat it as one is not pointing out the truth.
9. However forgive me if I don't lend credibility to your thoughts and don't think I am 'shunning' you if I tell others not to heed your advice.

You really have to read the whole thing! Nonetheless:

I was banned for:

While it is nice that "Looking" is supporting his wife, Pink Truth is not the forum for pro-MK people to promote their agendas. I also won't allow him to ridicule our mission or our members on this site.

Was I ridiculing the agenda here?

Was I ridiculing the members here?

Was I promoting a Pro MK agenda here?

Let me know.
at

40 comments:

  1. AnonymousDecember 2, 2007 at 9:40 PM

    You were not disrepectful at all, You gave your opinions that were the opposite of theirs. When you attempt that over there, they will ban you.

    When I first saw that site, I was tempted to post my rebuttals too. After a quick prayer, I realized they would only make fun of me, think or say that I was discounting their 'pain' or whatever. I am sorry for them that they are so bitter and on such a Mission to hurt IBC's and S.D.s and MK Corp.

    To me, a forum that does not allow dissent in a polite way must be afraid of something. Actually, I am surprized they posted anything that you said that was positive. Perhaps they were using you and/or hoping to raise their hits with a discussion.

    I found your comments very intelligent and polite. I did not see any ridicule on your part.

    it is true that there are unethical leaders in every organization. It is also true that many more are ethical. It is much like the News. We only hear the bad news. It seems to get more press just as a blog that is promotes sensationalism.

    Sorry but you are probably better off and they can go back to being boring. LOL!

    ReplyDelete
  2. Jon BironDecember 2, 2007 at 9:57 PM

    Angie,

    Thanks.

    I suspect that my comments are still up for one of two reasons.

    One. As you said, their "answers" and subsequent questions combined with my lack of response will serve as "further proof" that I (we) don't know what we are talking about.

    Two. Deleting my comments would mean either deleting a lot of other comments that were in response to mine, or admitting that they are brainwashing their readers by only presenting one side (theirs) of the story.

    Either way, it emphasizes the need for the new addition to my mission.

    "To point out the cult that is Pink Truth and hopefully save some from falling prey to it."

    Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  3. AnonymousDecember 2, 2007 at 10:39 PM

    It seemed as though most of the commenters on the other site were enjoying a reasonable discussion about something we are all concerned about ...But the discussion was terminated, inappropriately, in my opinion...

    I am getting addicted to all of the discussion because I am relatively new to the MK biz and I am experiencing some of the stuff "they" talk about on the other site. I would love, however, to believe that I, all of us, can be successful in MK, the way Mary Kay Ash intended.

    I can't post details of my experiences at this time, because I wish to remain anonymous...at least for now...

    ReplyDelete
  4. Jon BironDecember 2, 2007 at 11:03 PM

    anonymous for now,

    stay anonymous as long as you would like!

    Thanks for taking an interest in your business by looking into the different sides of the equation.

    Know this, whatever you decide, you are always welcome here. If you LOVE Mary Kay or if you hate it so much you can't see straight, you will always be welcome here.

    The only thing I would caution you about is that you don't spend so much time here (or anywhere online) that you don't go find customers and recruits! It can be very addicting, and I will never stop you, but I would hate to hear that you spent so much time here that you didn't do as well as you could have with your business!!!!

    Again, stay as anonymous as you would like while you are here. If you have any questions you can ask them here. I can't guarantee that a question in the "comments" section will always catch my attention. If you really want to get answers to a question, send the question (with "question" in the subject line) to balancedmarykay@gmail.com

    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  5. AnonymousDecember 3, 2007 at 9:56 AM

    Too quickly I’ve seen the discussion about Mary Kay Cosmetics morph into little more than personal attacks on people of differing opinions. I’m hopeful you won’t go down the same path. Consider what you were posting on PT and where you were posting it.

    For a while “Me” graciously allowed me to post opinions on her blog (mypinktruth.wordpress.com) that were clearly contrary to the opinions she supported. Here’s a woman (“Me”) who has shared information about supporting our troops, MK dress codes, MK products, being friendly to the UPS man, and a lot of stuff about how she enjoys the MK experience. Unfortunately much of her site is little more than personal attacks on someone with a different point of view. That’s sad. When “Me” banished me from her blog, that was OK in my mind. She had every right to do so. I was expressing ideas very contrary to the pro MK deception message. I believe her decision to ban me from her blog is understandable, reasonable and frankly, expected. I feel no ill will toward her for her decision to boot me. I do, however, regret she believes I’m an “obnoxious man.” I’m actually kind of a pleasant guy.

    Another example is The Myst. For the most part, this is a classy site. She has conversations about topics germane to folks who really do want to operate ethically (or so that’s my impression). As far as I can tell, she largely stays above the fray, avoids the fights that involve casting personal aspersions. Her site (pynkmyst.wordpress.com) supports her conceptualization of the good in MK. The Myst was extremely patient with me. In fact she was at times downright empathetic and supportive. She gave me plenty of warnings which I (for the most part) ignored. Her decision to “poof” me was completely understandable. I most certainly have no qualms with this woman (or “Me”).

    My intent in visiting these sites was to prompt some doubt among readers. My intention, my motivation, has always been to introduce doubt into the minds of those who might otherwise proceed into the MK abyss with an information stream limited to the trite sales pitches spewed by MK corporate and MK directors. “Me” and “The Myst” didn’t agree with me and I got bounced; that’s OK. In fact, let me here again thank both “Me” and “The Myst” for allowing me to participate to the extent they did. Thanks to both of you.

    David, your experience with PinkTruth.com is essentially no different than mine with both the aforementioned sites. You presentation was contrary to the mission of PinkTruth.com and, accordingly, you got bounced. Big deal.

    You asked about my perception of the administrator of PT. Let me say on the net (again) I applaud the product, I stand and applaud the wonderful product produced on the PT and I sing the praises of the those responsible for publishing it. Folks who produce outlets for MK clarity, for support of the many harmed by this cult-like entity, have my full support, my full admiration and my heartfelt thanks. I support TC and what she is doing. She and the PT do, in fact, “enrich women’s lives” by sharing a valuable warning, allowing for catharsis, and providing support.

    Join me in proclaiming the issue at hand is not about “Me,” “Myst” or “TC.” The issue at hand is a debate over the insidious tactics employed by so many involved in propagating the “opportunity.” The debate is about the harm caused to so many women and their families who have suffered because of their association with the MK dream. The debate is about the good and the bad associated with MK. The debate, at least for me, is not about personal attacks on “Me,” “The Myst” or “TC.” If you care to stoop to that level (as others have) you’ll go there without me (gee, that’d ruin your day wouldn’t it). You’ve got an interesting site. I hope you don’t take it down the tubes and let it become just another “I hate TC” site.

    Blessed

    ReplyDelete
  6. AnonymousDecember 3, 2007 at 10:04 AM

    I find it laughable that "they" attribute positive things happening in MK to people visiting their site and changing. It couldn't possibly be that the ethical, good, positive people existed prior to PT.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Jon BironDecember 3, 2007 at 7:15 PM

    Anonymous,

    I agree, it is laughable.

    I don't even know how to quantify the level to which that sentiment is absurd.

    Good point.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Jon BironDecember 3, 2007 at 7:23 PM

    Blessed said:

    "David, your experience with PinkTruth.com is essentially no different than mine with both the aforementioned sites. You presentation was contrary to the mission of PinkTruth.com and, accordingly, you got bounced. Big deal."

    No. It was not.

    A. I posted on topic.
    B. I did not MENTION that I had a blog.
    C. I did not recommend that they "visit" anything.
    D. I only answered the questions that were posed to me
    E. (Similar to D.) I ANSWERED the questions that were asked.
    F. I was not "warned that my behavior was inappropriate.
    G. *This one is the most relevant difference. I was silently banned. The majority of the readers and commenter's there are either unaware of my banning or are choosing to deceptively make it appear that I "have no answer".

    You have been asked direct questions on the sites in question and given ample time to respond.

    You have been given ample warning with specific details of what you should stop doing lest you get banned.

    Your failure to answer those questions was clearly on your part. NOT the blog owners in question.

    Do you still not see that you are a part of a cult over there?

    Do you think that it does not qualify as a cult because you have nothing to gain (financially) from your participation?

    The questions you are being asked here are piling up.

    Again, I can't emphasize this enough. YOU are not being censored here.

    Our experiences could not be more different.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Jon BironDecember 3, 2007 at 7:40 PM

    Blessed said:

    "Join me in proclaiming the issue at hand... ...is a debate over the insidious tactics employed by so many involved in propagating the “opportunity.”"

    You are not requesting a debate though are you?

    You are requesting permission to claim all of the things you say are true of Mary Kay, without backing them up or answering those that would question your logic.

    It appears that your only interest is in pulling people to the narrow-minded, one-sided piece of propaganda that is the site you esteem so highly.

    You have asked on several occasions and several sites, "do you really think that you can find all you need at MK.com" I would ask you the same thing. Do you think that PT really represents a true perspective of all facets of MK?

    I have said it many times now, and I will keep saying it. You are a part of a cult. I recommend you get out of there before you get hurt.

    I am not afraid (as you have seen) to post things here that point out the problems in MK. I intend to have a more developed section for that purpose as time allows. I have linked to the sites that offer much of the information that I have not had opportunity to sift through yet.

    Take a moment or two to consider what you have become. Consider some of the things that you are saying. Is this (as Joe Dirt) would say, "where you want to be when Jesus comes back"?

    I have kept a close eye on PT today looking for you to post the "looking is not answering your questions because" comment I requested.

    I think you already know these things though don't you?

    You know it is an unhealthy situation for you. You probably get agitated every time someone questions your involvement. You probably have pat answers for why you are involved.

    The signs are there. It is just hard to admit isn't it?

    Before I go, I thought it important to point out that I make no personal attacks on TC or you.

    I simply point out that what you are doing is dangerous. You are *toying* with peoples lives and I take serious issue with that.

    It does not mean that you are a bad person. You are just participating in a bad thing. You need to stop. For yourself as much as for those around you and the people you are damaging by participating the way you do.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Jon BironDecember 3, 2007 at 7:47 PM

    Judi,

    Just wanted to write a special note to you (and anyone else that reads and participates on PT)

    I do not feel the same way about your participation that I do about Blessed.

    I read PT every day. (obviously)

    I think they make some good points.

    I aim to highlight those points here.

    I would caution you though that by adding your voice to theirs you are in essence supporting EVERYTHING they say. I know that is not "fair", but it is like driving with a passenger that has drugs. You run the risk of guilt by association.

    If you agree with everything they say, I would love to hear why.

    If you don't, I would strongly encourage you to disclaim ALL of your comments there with, "I don't agree with everything here, but..."

    They have leveled some seriously devastating accusations there against 'anyone involved with MK'

    Again, not everyone there is out of line. But there is a culture there that you should use caution when approaching.

    Judi, I wrote this because I felt I needed to say all those things (above) to blessed. I really think that he needs help. I hope somehow this site will be able to reach him. But, I don't want you to think that I apply those thought unilaterally to anyone that has taken part in that community.

    I hope you hear my heart here. I really think that you have a desire (like me) to get to the bottom of this and especially to help people.

    I thank you for your participation here and would be remiss to lose it.

    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
  11. AnonymousDecember 3, 2007 at 9:14 PM

    Blessed,

    You have no idea what tc is capable of doing. I have been reading these blogs for about a year. Research it and then see if you think it is the pink truth. I think not.

    I posted on there about 8 months ago and my post was not ugly in anyway shape or form, however it wasn't even there 2 seconds and it was gone.

    So you want to come to the Pro MK sites however the site that you chose to believe won't let us come and say what we want. Doesn't seem fair does it.

    The truth needs to be said however it needs both sides. Not just yours and not just ours. If you and your friends pt want the real truth then lets have both sides.

    ReplyDelete
  12. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 3:51 AM

    MK was such a destructive part of my life. I KNOW, I KNOW!! It was not that way for everyone. But it was for me. And knowing that other's had the same experience validates my own. That's why I go to PT. But I know that not all MKers are bad, that's why I come here. I have looked at the other pro MK sites. Some of them are too much like the meetings, fillers with no real help, some are petty, some make accusations toward PT that make themselves seem insane. I do not know TC. I do not know anything about her other than she runs PT. I don't know how high she was in MK, or anything about her personal life. But some of those pro MK sites try to discredit her and they end up being discredited. I'm sure they must know her but to someone who knows neither of you, it comes across terribly. (I realize your blog is not written for me.) This is the only one that seems neutral.

    I can so relate to some of the things Blessed has written, here and on PT. I realize that when we read soemthing someone has written we do not hear the tone they wrote it in. I don't see him/her (never know online) as arrogant, or whatever he was called. I hear him as someone who is trying to get his point across.

    I do not feel like me posting on PT is like driving in a car with someone on drugs. Jsut like doing MK is not like falling from a 6 story window. Let's keep it in perspective. If someone decides not to do MK because of something I have written, what have they truly lost? A job.

    ReplyDelete
  13. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 7:05 AM

    I don't see anything wrong with pro-MK sites that don't touch on the "great MK debate." My site, for example, is not designed for arguing whether MK is good or bad. My site mission is to provide and share ideas among active consultants (people who already feel MK is good). I fully understand that not everyone has a positive experience in MK. I do have a positive existence in MK. I want to share that with others and possibly help guide someone who feels lost in her own MK endeavor. I post articles that deal with determining whether this is the right business choice and I post articles for those who need a little push or some ideas. If someone wants to leave MK, why leave with a grudge? Why not come to terms with the problems and accept them as they are and leave in peace?

    I feel that I get very good ideas from my area meetings and events. Not everyone in MK likes their meetings--or their directors for that matter. Some are in areas where they only have access to one director. I post on my site things I learn at my events in the hopes that someone who is frustrated with her own training might read something there that clicks with her.

    It is disclosed on every MK media that results of some, may not necessarily be the same results for others. I post ideas on my site that I have tried and didn't care for, but that doesn't mean someone else who reads it can't relate to it and run with it.

    I provide information for those who are actively working their businesses and looking for ideas. Also, I address difficulties that may arise and offer discussion for resolution. What I don't invite is drama and arguing. Yes, it is a pro-MK site. It is designed for current active consultants to support each other. I don't want numbers. I just want to help others who might be searching for something in their own businesses. I also hope that someone who reads has some insight that I may be able to apply to my business.

    It's like having a website designated for fans of a band not wanting people who hate the band to post their opinions as facts about that band. Or, a blog for McDonald's franchise owners to interact that doesn't want people who blame the fast food industry for obesity harrassing them. Sorry for my feeble analogies. It's early. Maybe this one is good, too: if I have a school of ballet designed to teach aspiring ballet dancers, I wouldn't want it disrupted with someone who thinks ballet is wrong and invokes eating disorders and tells all of my students to leave and take up gymnastics instead. How's that one? :P

    Anyway, that is why some sites are Pro-MK. They are for those who are working in the business. I can only really speak for myself, but since my blog was inspired by MK Rules and Pynk Myst, I would have to say they have similar missions. My goal is to provide ideas, motivation, and inspiration and keep it down to earth at the same time.

    David's goal here is much different than mine. This is a great site for people to vent frustrations and plead their cases for/against Mary Kay. If his goal was the same as mine, I might not visit so often. ;) Maybe David's goal here is also much different from PT. Perhaps the goal at PT is to have an anti-MK pep rally excluding any and all opposition.

    ReplyDelete
  14. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 9:53 AM

    I have read several blogs, pro & anti and have learned from all sites. I understand that if you want to play in someone else's sandbox you should play nice or you will not be allowed to play and that is understandable.

    I believe an instructional pro MK site has a purpose, I also believe if someone wants to have a anit-MK site, that if fine too. My big problem is if you go to MK Intouch and read, it doesn't promise you will make $1,000,000 in months. The buy back option is public, if everyone succeeded, why would there need to be a buyback policy. The site is selling MK - it isn't going to point out the con's - just as anyone else advertising, you are going to emphasis the pro's, minimize the con's.

    My issue with PT is NOT that it is an anti MK site. My problem is - they want to call it, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They say they will post posetive comments if they are respectful but if it even a little posetive even if it is allowed to be posted, it will be deleted.

    Or as in David's more recent case, his comment stayed, a conversation started. It actually was going fairly well. I think egg shells were being walked on but .... And members were asking quesions of David to explain and boom... now he can't reply because he was banned. A statement was posted, but many wouldn't have understood that it was saying he was banned - it appeared to be more of a warning that if you didn't behave, he would be booted.

    So the members will continue to be left in the dark - thinking David was no longer ready to defend his beliefs.

    I agree that to the posters of the stories, this is their truth but it is not THE TRUTH. I agree the MK site is not all THE TRUTH either but it is not claiming to be the Truth of MK, it is what it is, Advertising.

    David, your concept of this blog is more what I would call a truth site. I think with the civil exchanges, many can be helped.

    Consultants can see options, ask questions that they may not feel comfortable asking of their director, read horror stories and realize how to protect themselves from getting in the same situation as another. Directors may see habits they have that could be hurting others and in the long run themselves. I can see posetive stuff coming from this site, not pro - MK .

    You have accomplished what TC would like people to believe TC is, except she doesn't honor, free speech and the 5th amendment, and runs it much like a dictator.

    I did go back and read over there, as much as I try not to now because I find it said that some just can't seem to let go of their bitterness and wow, you attacked raisin and their mission statement. I guess I must have been prejudiced but I read the statements and I didn't read attack, I saw discussion.

    Now, I find it amuzing that you have been shot done as you aren't a consultant or you and your wife hasn't been in long enough, but I find it laughable that one of the biggest mouth pieces over there, Lazy Gardens, from what I read was never a consultant. It is interesting how you can become such an authority, by working with people on the internet. Has she ever gone to research and talk to directors who are doing it the right way and making money and successful? (oops, according to PT that isn't possible, so there are none!)





    I think I can answer another questions that frequently comes up.

    If you are in an area that has a "bad" director, and it appears that all the other directors you deal with and see are the same, that wouldn't really surprise me. Very often "those that you are around are often like you". I have found big difference in National areas. I can say that my national and my sister directors are not what has been experienced by those wronged on PT. I was appauled, shocked, and saddened when I read what went on over there because, I just couldn't believe directors would do that because it is not what I live with.

    I think different parts of the country tends to affect some of the behaviors. I am more from the North East. (Us "cold northers" tend to by more business minded, fast paced type people) down south "the Bible Belt" I guess you would here more religious stuff getting tied in with business because it is part of the culture. So maybe the reason all one sees, is because that is the type of attitude that is in that particular area. I have seen this in different national areas. Some areas actually do appear to "think they are better" than other areasf. Some areas are as goofy, fun, and silly. But that is why one may believe that "all" are the same because they haven't looked outside of their box.

    In my area, the directors function they way I do, we have been whammied when on one occassion when this "super successful" director happened to recruit one in our area and her influence started polluting our go-give area. Well she reaked havoc for awhile but, as always, do it wrong and it will come back to bite you and now things are different. I hope this opens some eyes as to why it seems like all they meet may be the same.

    David,
    if nothing else you gave them a fun evening over on PT

    ReplyDelete
  15. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 11:34 AM

    to Blessed,
    why not start your own blog, then you will not have to be worried about being banned? You obviously have a lot to say, and you could talk all day about how evil MK is to your hearts content. But in doing so be prepared to really find out how "supportive" TC can be. You are so quick to support her but history has proven that she will not do the same. I believe that you will quickly see how she is more interested in promoting herself than making sure the word gets out about the "dangers of MK".

    I say this because their have been many other antiMK or "lightpink" sites whos owners have had run ins with TC that were not so favorable. You would think that if they all had the same mission that TC would support them and they would get along on some level, but the dynamics of many of those relationships were played out on these blogs, and it was painfully clear that TC was more interested in her own crusade to be the one to "bring down MK" (LOL) than she was in joining forces with others. She would not even place links to the other anti sites on her blog (so I read).

    I just find it so intersting that you defend her mission, when you really have no idea what her mission truely is.

    ReplyDelete
  16. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 12:08 PM

    foreverpink,

    I have to agree with you on this. I have seen tc's rear her ugliness and Blessed and Judi have not. If you cross her you will be banned with no explaination. I know that Blessed was banned from Myst as she told him to stop and he didn't. So...on pt bam you are banned no nothing.

    I also feel that if pt really wanted the whole truth then tc would allow all sides of this discussion and we know that is not going to happen. She thinks that she knows all.

    What I don't understand is if you don't like MK then move on. All of the energy that is spent trying to defogg the "pink fog" as they call it could be better spent doing something else. I don't know like volunteering somewhere are something. I believe that it is wasted energy.

    Well, I Love my MK and no one will change my mind. If I don't like something that my director says I tell her. She can't take my birthday away and she may not realize that she is doing anything to upset someone if no one will step up and say something. Let me tell you there are bad apples everywhere not just in this business. You know if life hands you some lemons I think that you should just add some sugar and make some lemonaide.

    ReplyDelete
  17. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 2:08 PM

    well if you think that anti-MK people should just move on, then maybe anti-PT people should too. don't waste energy. if you don't like it don't read it and don't talk about it. there.

    ReplyDelete
  18. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 3:07 PM

    Jessie,

    I think that it is called freedom to chose. I just think that if these women are so hurt that they would want to stop the pain and move on.

    I will read what I want. I believe that this blog is pro and con and I am speaking from a pro point of view. If you have a con point of view that is fine too.

    I think that you are getting a little mad. I am anti-pt if they are not going to tell the whole truth. If they did that would be a different story. So that is my thought. Don't dish it out if you can't take what comes next. I am a big girl and I can handle anything that you throw my way. One thing that I can't stand is to be lied too. Don't like won't tolerate it. So when I see a site that says pink truth I would really want it to be that true.

    ReplyDelete
  19. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 4:52 PM

    And for a lot of us, Pink Bren, what is said on PT IS the truth. Not TC herself. I do not know her. But alot of what I've read there I have seen with my own eyes. And I do not post there because I am hurt. I post there to warn others so they don't go thru what I did.

    ReplyDelete
  20. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 5:09 PM

    Judi,

    That is all fine and good. I am just saying that if someone is looking for the truth then shouldn't it be truthful?

    I am sorry that you have had a bad time in MK. I know that you have said that your director lied to you. Not everyone is like that.

    One thing that I see is everyone is lumped together. I will continue to defend MK because I like it always have always will.

    You don't have to like it. That is your choice, and you can tell your story to all that will listen that is great. I am not in anyway trying to take away from you what happened to you. I do think both sides need to be told.

    I question my director on things all the time and yeah she may get mad, however when I want answer I will ask.

    So with that said I hope you have a GREAT EVENING

    ReplyDelete
  21. AnonymousDecember 4, 2007 at 7:21 PM

    Blessed:

    Might I ask what your job or hobby is so that we might all try to "put some doubts" in YOUR mind? It only seems fair after all...

    That is the thing about MK Blogs. People somehow feel they know YOU because they know your JOB. I don't like that type of stereotyping. I'm sure you would not like it either, Blessed. Although many of your comments on the Myst were respectful, you made your point. You seemed to be trying it in all different ways to see what reaction you could get, or how many of us might start to doubt ourselves. I am curious...why is your mission of attempting to make us doubt ourselves any better than the awful tactics that SOME directors or recruiters use which you claim to hate so much?

    And while many have "suffered" due to their dream (or *ahem...correction* POOR CHOICES), some are happy in their businesses. And I believe trying to get them to be unhappy with it is a very dismal goal indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Jon BironDecember 4, 2007 at 9:48 PM

    WOW, thanks to everyone that posted their thoughts here.

    I do not have time to thank you all individually, so here is one big thank you to everyone for participating.

    Although it is constantly evolving, I think the consensus is this.

    There are potentially positive and potentially negative aspects to joining Mary Kay.

    A site that points out exclusively positive or exclusively negative aspects of the opportunity is not inherently wrong. It is their prerogative to do so.

    It is however deceptive, presumptive and arrogant to present ones opinion or point of view as truth. Especially when those views are not substantiated with conclusive evidence.

    What Pink Truth does that irks so many is to present some facts alongside many opinions and call the whole thing "truth".

    They combine this with a very forceful accusation against ALL people representing the company. Their vigilante approach goes far beyond a cautionary piece of advice and becomes a distorted, abusive smear campaign that helps very few and hurts many.

    The Islam religion is credited with many peaceful followers. It also has some radical followers that have done atrocious things in the name of Allah.

    It would be accurate to say:

    The truth is, some Muslims have committed atrocities in the name of their religion.

    One should be cautious joining Islam because of the potential for becoming a dangerous radical.

    (these things could be applied to almost any religion)

    It would be inaccurate to say:

    The truth is, all Muslims are planning to destroy innocent people... whether they know it or not.

    In much the same way, Pink Truth has created a hypothesis that everyone involved in Mary Kay is either intentionally or unknowingly destroying other women's life.

    While that may be funny as a joke (many times when I read that site I get suspicious that it is just one big tongue-in-cheek joke meant to get everyone to lighten up and laugh), it is presented as truth.

    In order for me to drop the newly added portion of my mission,

    "To point out the cult that is Pink Truth and hopefully save some from falling prey to it."

    Pink Truth will either have to drop the lie about telling the truth on their site or start featuring only things that are true.

    Thanks all for your participation

    ReplyDelete
  23. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 7:20 AM

    Dave,

    Ya know, I was actually beginning to think maybe my “falling off the sixth floor hotel balcony” story was perhaps a stretched analogy. But now I hear you profess PT is, essentially, promoting jihad (picture me scratching my head). At times I think you, Dave, may be one of the most convincing contributors (however unintentionally) supporting the validity of the messages presented on the PinkTruth.com. You’ve got some wonderfully innovative ideas though. Yea, I think this afternoon I’m gonna go out and buy a burka for my wife. Then I’ll put some laundry on my head, go up to the roof with the wife and fire some automatic weapons in the air while yelling, “Death to the purveyors of the pink satan”! Yea, that’ll work.... Great entertainment value, though, Dave.

    Keep ‘em coming, you’re killing me ;-) !

    You’ve described me as being (in so many words) unresponsive, as failing to provide my story. At some time in the future I may pen something resembling my “I story.” Until then, I’ll have to ask you to live with the stuff I’ve already posted on the PT, the Pinking Shears, (Mary Kay Survivors) and other places.

    Your suggestion that your site is some sort of paragon of truth, a refuge for those seeking an unbiased presentation of both the good and the bad associated with the “opportunity” may be pushing the envelope a bit, don’t ya think Dave? I’ve read a number of times on your site what seems to be developing into a mantra: you won’t allow statement of purported facts without evidence. So tell me, what burden of evidence will you be consistently demanding? Will it be the “by a preponderance of evidence” standard or the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. And when you’re able to espouse specifically just what level of evidentiary standard you’ll demand here, please tell me whether anecdotal testimony presenting personal experiences and conclusions will be admissible.

    And most importantly, please let me know when you’ll begin to enforce your evidentiary standards consistently to all posts on your site. You’ve been far from consistent so far. Although I can’t be absolutely sure, it seems to me I’m the only one who has had a post deleted on your site for my failure to meet your unspecified standard of evidence. And if the standard is simply a demand there be no posting of a purported fact without an accompanying presentation of supportive objective evidence, well, I’ve been singled out. I can certainly find an example of a post espousing a purported fact by a pro-MK deception contributor, which was not deleted by you, which was not held to this vague burden of evidence.

    So, if you wanna be another Raw - Raw, pro Mary Kay site, that’s perfectly OK. If you’d like your site to be taken seriously as an objective arena for examination of both sides of the MK debate, that’s also (of course) totally up to you. Please just don’t profess to be one thing while actually having a different motive; I’ve seen too much of this already in my lifetime (did I tell ya my wife use to be an IBC?).

    Tell ya what, if you’re actually interested in a fair debate, one which allows opinions/conclusions from both sides, with posting standards consistently enforced, you should post my deleted post (the one which talked about alligators). And If you can’t do that, you should begin to go through your site and start deleting all the posts professing the “MK will bring success to anyone who gets involved if they really want it,” type stuff. There is certainly no evidence everyone will be successful in MK if only they want it bad enough. So, start deleting or put my post up!

    You may be able to learn a bit by reviewing the mission statements of sites like thepinkingshears.com, pinktruth.com, and pynkmyst.wordpress.com. These folks are very good at doing what they say they’re doing. I hope you’re able to sort this evidence standard thing out and, most importantly, enforce whatever standard you adopt consistently. You’re an interesting guy. Anyone who supports his wife with such vigor, appreciates good photography, and loves animals can’t be bad.

    Blessed

    ReplyDelete
  24. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 7:50 AM

    i think there is somthing seriously wrong with blessed...

    go for it david

    ReplyDelete
  25. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 8:43 AM

    I think all anybody wants is just a little validation.

    It bothers me when someone states their opinion as if it is only one out there.

    What blessed and some on PT refuse to do is just aknowledge that you CAN be successful in MK, (and not by the long shot odds that blessed gives). This statement IS true. And you CAN do it without being dishonest and success comes to many more women than they want to admit.

    To go around saying that you CANT be successful in MK or that you have to be dishonest to do it is NOT true.

    I did not say that dishonesty doesnt happen, but only that you dont have to be dishonest.

    By the same token, we as promk have to acknowledge that you CAN be UNsuccessful in MK as well.
    To go around saying that everyone who joins will be successful is NOT true. It is also wrong of us as promk to go around saying that those who were unsuccessful were all lazy because many things can add to the lack of success. I acknowledge this as a Promker. Not everyone will be successful, or have a good experience. Not everyone will be fortunate to have good leardership.

    So why cant those who are against this business just acknowledge the good about this opportunity, just as many of us as promk will acknowledge the bad? I am talking about looking beyond your own experience and realizing that it can be different for someone else. Why is that so hard to do?

    When you start talking in absolute terms and using all inclusive language, that is when people get angry and feel as if you are being unfair.

    And since there is no real way to know who will be successful and who wont, why discourage anyone from trying? Why not just learn from the mistakes of others and go for it? The business risk in MK is not that big compared to other business ventures. That in itself sets it apart from other opportunites.

    When you discourage someone from joining MK, you are not just warning them of what could go wrong. What you are doing is saying "You are not going to do well so dont even try, noone ever does well in this business.." What you have done is essentially made up a persons mind for them and made an ASSUMPTION that they could not be successful just because of what happened to you. I just feel that is so wrong and unfair.

    A warning would sound more like "..I had a bad experience with this business, but others have not, watch out for xyz or look at other blogs for information and then make your decision.."

    I know that there are women who have worked this business and could not make a success of it. I would never say that all those on PT are just whining and jealous, there are some true stories. But it is also not fair for them to say that all of us as promk are cheating or lying to make our experiences work for us.

    And as far as the proof that David keeps talking about. I think that what he wants is specific examples of why you feel MK works or not.
    I rarely agree with the poster named "Judi" but AT LEAST she gives specific examples of her experiences that have shaped her opinion. We can read her statements and many of us can pinpoint what went wrong. I have cited specific examples from my expeiriences in MK so that many can see why I love this business. I have been in 10 years!! I think I have seen my share of good and bad, and guess what, I still love it! I still have many of the same customers who order regularly from me, so why should I stop?

    All blessed ever does is give his opinion about MK without specific examples of what happened in his MK journey to make him feel this way. Of course this is his choice.

    I appreciate Dave's blog and all the others. Pink Truth is way over the top and destructive in my view, even for those that have been hurt by MK. It does not allow you to move on the right way.
    ok that's my rant for today

    ReplyDelete
  26. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 11:06 AM

    foreverpink said:

    "And since there is no real way to know who will be successful and who wont, why discourage anyone from trying? Why not just learn from the mistakes of others and go for it? The business risk in MK is not that big compared to other business ventures. That in itself sets it apart from other opportunites.

    When you discourage someone from joining MK, you are not just warning them of what could go wrong. What you are doing is saying "You are not going to do well so dont even try, noone ever does well in this business.." What you have done is essentially made up a persons mind for them and made an ASSUMPTION that they could not be successful just because of what happened to you. I just feel that is so wrong and unfair.

    A warning would sound more like "..I had a bad experience with this business, but others have not, watch out for xyz or look at other blogs for information and then make your decision.."

    And I think it bears repeating. :)

    ReplyDelete
  27. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 12:19 PM

    Blessed,

    I am still waiting on your response to my questions...although if you even read it you must know that I am right. Judging anyone due to or trying to save anyone from their profession is crazy. It's like telling someone not to be a priest because some have made them all look bad.

    I don't think this is a Rah-rah site like mine, but it isn't all negative either, which is what you are looking for.

    ReplyDelete
  28. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 12:26 PM

    This debate will go on forever becuase you will never please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

    From a total rational view point, (let's take even take recruiting out of the picture.) If you buy a product at 50% off and sell it for the retail price, we have earned 50% - yes of course, you will pay for samples, catalogues, etc... so let's say a consultant uses about 10% of the gross profit to buy supplies. That still leaves her with 40% to play with. On top of that even if you give your family a 10% discount, you will still make 30%.

    If you buy a lipstick for $6.50 and sell it for $13.00 you have earned $6.50. Period.

    So what more proof do you need that if you do this business, as a retail busines, you will be making money!

    And from the mouth of a director, if you are a hobby/parttime consultant, a local career conference or retreat would fit into the budget and help with training but in cases as these, I do not believe, they should be incurring the cost of Seminar unless they want to build towards car driver and director. Or go once to see the possibilities but if you choose to stay at a parttime level, I believe that ever year is just a fincancial burden. I am not saying I would ever miss Seminar, I want to stay on top of my business and to me, I view it as one of my obligations to my consultants, my customers, and myself.

    But I would expect one to use common sense in making these decisions. If you do 2 $200 orders a year for you and your family, well lt's face it, why would you need Seminar?

    blessed, I am sorry this business didn't work for you and your wife. My hubby much as judi, couldn't put two words together but if he read your stuff after watching how we work and the money that comes in, and the inventory in the house and the no debt. (We have no secrets from each other) - I could have him write you a note, but it would have to be sensored.

    I own two credit cards. I lived 15 years in the corp. accounting and business finalyst field. I have one $2000 limit that I use for business and pay off month. (I do this because I earn frequent flier points for each dollar) so I can often earn one to two tickets a year, which really makes attending Seminar nice. And the other one has a $500 limit, this is mine for the household, or the I just need those shoes card which is also paid off promptly.

    I order inventory when I need it, not to buy production. (I am not bragging here, but I did an open house this weekend in the town I moved from a few years ago) sales are nearing $2000 for the weekend. All clients have their products. I don't have to run and deliver or mail over 50 packages. It was fun and my clients were happy. Today, I HAVE to put an order in because I have wholes in my stock. The next person who needs a 3 - cleanser may get it, but the next one will have to wait. I am not willing to tell one of my clients, you must wait. They will find someone else. If I hadn't had inventory and only had a catalog, I believe my sales would have been much lower? Do you disagree?

    I am sure the hotel staff would be happy to sign an afftidavit saying how many people stopped in and how happy they were. They did not come because they had a gun to their head or a stalked them down and backed them into a corner. They came on their own from an invitiation. This business absolutely can work.

    ReplyDelete
  29. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 12:28 PM

    To David and all readers,

    sorry, every time I go to post a "short" comment it turns into a book. I don't mean to but I guess I feel if I can site enough examples and experiences maybe, just maybe it will help and enlighten others instead of just saying "because I said so" type of thing!

    ReplyDelete
  30. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 12:54 PM

    mkrules
    dont even bother with the analogies that use examples involving the catholic faith. Blessed has already revealed to us on ME's blog that he is or used to be a practicing catholic. I tried using an analogy with him just as you have along those same lines and he has yet to respond to it.

    ReplyDelete
  31. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 2:48 PM

    Mkrules,

    Sometimes I think I’d enjoy just sitting down and having a cup of coffee with so many of the folks who post here, especially those on PT, and on The Myst, etc. I’d particularly like to someday have a conversation with “Me” to at least try to convey, in person perhaps, that I’m not such an “obnoxious man.” Unfortunately, anonymity is so important in this debate. Take a moment and consider what has happened to the one person who had the testicular fortitude to step up (with her own name) and proclaim “STOP, enough is enough”! How many web sites exist today to cast aspersions upon Tracy Coenen? I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that kind of treatment. That’s one (just one) of the reasons I so admire what she does with PT.

    “Me” has already revealed I work for the federal government (even though she has no idea where, at what times of the day, or in what capacity). Nonetheless, she thought it appropriate to reveal this about me. It is with an interest in maintaining anonymity that I won’t reveal what I do with specificity. Kind of sad isn’t it.

    Foreverpink,

    Let me take a shot at giving you a bit of the validation you spoke of. I have no reason to doubt you do not allow yourself to stoop to the levels of some of the more notorious directors in MK that we’ve all heard so much about. You and so many people in and out of MK are wonderful, good people.

    The problem is your participation in this MLM serves to propagate the beast that brings injury to so many. Your support of MK bolsters the viability of the MLM infrastructure which enables it to victimize so many families. If the universe of IBCs who are active today consisted only of those people who so openly perpetrate some of the more horrible things commonly associated with this cult, the problem would be solved rather quickly. My point is it’s a numbers game. W/O all the women who wash out of this each year, the pyramid would crumble, problem would be solved. The innocent women who get churned through this MLM, chewed up and leave, (the cannon fodder ladies), are an absolutely vital part of making this MLM survive. By design, the vast majority of those who succumb to the attractiveness of the “opportunity” will get out soon after the fateful decision to buy the starter kit is made. The MLM system is designed to churn its numbers in great volume. Regardless of how ethically you believe you operate your Mary Kay venture, you are nonetheless a contributor to the propagation of this MLM beast.

    Ask yourself, is the accountant who launders proceeds from ill gotten gains really so much less culpable than the person committing the unethical acts that produced the ill gotten gains? Pick the role you want and insert it into the equation; it can be the accountant, the policeman who looks the other way, the witness who doesn’t testify.... They all play a part in perpetuating the behavior, all culpable.

    At what point do you decide “I won’t be a part of it, I won’t be associated with an organization that does what the MK MLMs does.” OK, then, everybody right now go to your window, throw up the sash and yell out the window:

    I’M NOT GONNA BE PART OF IT ANY MORE!!!!

    Don’t ya feel better now?

    Blessed

    ReplyDelete
  32. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 3:23 PM

    But in the end Blessed, arent we ALL contributing to something, somewhere on some level, whether intentional or not, to things that may or may not be benefical to someone else. So where do you draw the line, where does it end? We may as well just all stay in the house and never interact with anyone or anything. Mary Kay is never going to be as cut and dry and you try to make it.

    I think that intent does matter and it makes a difference in the end. Those of us that have no intentions of hurting others will be the ones to prevail in the end. Maybe I am innocent but that is just what I believe. My conscious (spelling) is clear when it comes to this business. I dont feel as if I have done anything wrong so there is no need for me to run to the window and yell out some sort of mantra or declaration into the wind. I cant speak for anyone elses, but i have nothing to hide or apologize for, no more than an honest cop has to apologize for all the dishonest ones.
    You compare honest beauty consultants to "passive criminals" such as those who contribute to crime such as a policman who looks the other way or someone who lets others get away with crimes by not speaking up. Well you cant continue to make that comparison because we are not like those people because we ARE speaking up, and many of us have gone to corporate about things, and we ARE correcting beauty consultants and calling them out when they do things wrong. That is what is gonna change things.

    You are always using these criminal anaolgies, why do you think we are all criminals?

    I dont believe that Mary kay has been kept alive because of the "innoncent women" who have come in and out of this business, but it is the products and the company itself that have made it last. 45 years is more than enough time for a company to crumble if it is so full of the evils that you say it is full of.

    I also think you need to relax before you get a headache. I can see the veins poppin out of your head as you were typing.

    ReplyDelete
  33. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 5:28 PM

    blessed,

    You keep using the phrase "what outing yourself will get you" in this pro/anti MK world and then you use TC as an example. There is a major problem with your example. First TC outed herself, second, the anti TC blogs did not start out as soon as that happened. Anti TC blogs started when her abuse of her "followers" got to a point her "followers" turned on her. Both major anti TC blogs where started by ex-PTers (not-pro MKers) going after her personally. Me's blog such as David has used this for was in her own defense - to balance the field. It really doesn't take much if you dig back in blog history to understand that the character you are defending, will one day end up with you having the egg on your face. Just read the history. Many, many better folks than you have defended her to the death, go visit them now on Duh's site or PT lies!

    The worst story and it is documented far and wide was the outing of the owner of ME's blog. And the reason many of us pro-MK people want to remain anonymous is for fear of TC doing to us what she did to "Me". This is documented on many sites and there is evidence and proof to back this up. As I was reading it, there would be no way I would put myself nor my family in the line of fire someone as I see as very unbalanced. While she may not have performed a violent act (YET) if someone is that unbalanced it doesn't take much for them to cross the line. In addition, it does seem she is a very inteligent, and computer knowledgable individual and could make life unpleasant for someone and it is obvious, she has plenty of spare time on her hands. I don't need any headaches with identity theft, or someone sending viruses, etc..

    So you may believe as you believe. I choose to believe what I believe. If you operate MK as a selling business primarily and recruiting secondarily, you can build a good strong unit, ethically and honestly.

    ReplyDelete
  34. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 5:34 PM

    And, right now to all readers, I will apologize if my attitude is less than perfect here but I am really getting ready to scream.

    blessed, I would thank you to stop insulting myself and others by and telling us this busines can not be done without compromising one's values. I will worry about my God judging me and not you. Not that this matters, but right now I ,along with my unit we are choosing to not to actively recruit until after the intro of all the new products so that I don't have to have a new consultant deal with the switch and working hard with my unit to get ready for it. We have had production of over $10,000 w/monthly production without one penny coming from a new consultant. Why, because we sell the product, and yes, this product can be sold to clients who are willing to pay full price and when you sell it - you need more to continue to sell it, get it?? the product is a consumable good. Many of us love the products and feel the price is fair. So please stop insulting me by telling me it can not be done because I have watched it done for years and years.

    What I have noticed is if you start in the beginning doing it the right way, you can keep going. If you begin, the wrong way, recruiting, frontloading, recruiting, etc. it is very, very hard to switch from recruiting everyone bringing them in big and trying to offset the big chargebacks type of unit - To booking classes, selling products, building clients, then recruiting. The reason it is so hard, is because it takes time to develope selling consultants and not bringing new team members in with big inventories, so if all of a sudden after years of doing it wrong and one decides to do it right, it is going to be a rough transisition because it will take months to work the unit into a selling unit, this will mean some very lean months since you have brought all your unit members in with large inventories, so they won't need to order more until they start selling what they have. And if you recruit and don't frontload, your production amounts will go down for awhile.

    I watched a director move into my area from another part of the country - we started hanging out together and she would say to me "why do you do it that way?" - why don't you, etc.. I explained to her how I had always been taught. She was in awe and realized how all her experience was based on recruiting. She made a promise to herself to change it. It took her about 4-5 months of booking her bootie off to hold lots of classes to develop buying clients and to take her unit members along to help them learn the art of skin care classes and I was the first to celebrate her turning her unit around. I admire the work ethic she displayed and her willingness to change things for the benefit of ourself and all of her unit members. My guess, if other directors found themselves in the boat my friend did, and wanted to start changing things, they didn't have what it took to make it thru the transition or they were in far too deep from doidng it wrong to make the transisition back to the way this Company was intended to be run.

    Sorry for the rant!

    ReplyDelete
  35. AnonymousDecember 5, 2007 at 8:04 PM

    Blessed,

    Wow. Once again you find a way to avoid my question, which was: WHAT MAKES YOU ANY BETTER THAN AN UNETHICAL DIRECTOR WHEN YOU ARE DELIBERATLY ATTEMPTING TO PUT DOUBTS IN THESE LADIES MINDS?

    Your "mission" is futile. Perhaps some of the ladies here will end up quitting MK, who knows. But you can count on one thing, it won't be because you came onto a blog and changed their minds.

    I would never truly ridicule your profession, and it seems the federal government gets all the ridicule it can stand from the general public anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Jon BironDecember 5, 2007 at 8:49 PM

    blessed

    Do you want to know why people think you are arrogant?

    I don’t think you do. But I will tell everyone else and hopefully you will get it.

    YOU DON’T LISTEN.

    Right off the bat you prove that you didn’t read what I said at all.

    I compared MARY KAY to the religion of Islam. I pointed out that to accuse EVERYONE in Mary Kay of being as bad as the individuals (few or myriad) that are “bad” is similar to accusing ALL Muslims of being extremists. I WAS accusing Pink Truth (and specifically you) of being similar to the ignorant racists that see someone of Middle Eastern descent and ASSUME, “terrorist”. You seem well spoken (written) so I would assume that there is no problem with reading for comprehension in your brain. So it must be that you just don’t listen well. Re-read what I wrote. Now re-read what you wrote. See. I NEVER said PT was promoting Jihad. If anything, it was the opposite.

    There is a difference between WILL and CAN. You like to use the concept WILL. “If you get involved in Mary Kay, you WILL be financially devastated” and “If you are successful in Mary Kay it MUST be because you are deceiving people. Do you know the difference? If there is ANYTHING on this site that says something similar to, “Sign up for Mary Kay and you WILL succeed”, would you point it out to me? Thanks.

    If you don’t want to tell us your experience here, give me a link where I can find it. All I am asking is that if you are so convinced that involvement in Mary Kay is guaranteed to ruin lives, prove it. It sounds like your life was nearly ruined by it. In what way?

    Regarding evidence vs. beyond doubt vs. testimony, we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

    May I ask, which one does PT use to establish what they call truth?

    Have you been to the website that I started to be a companion to this blog? Seen how many truths I have established there? None. Nothing is set in stone.

    So far you are the ONLY one that seems to be trying to say “THIS is the way it is” and insisting that it can’t be any other way.

    Which leads me to; you ARE the only one that has had a comment deleted. If you don’t understand why, I am not going to repeat it.

    Which leads me to:

    I am heavily debating deleting your second comment. You have done it again. You are saying that MK is a beast, and that by participating you are in essence culpable of the same thing. THIS is the sort of thing I am asking you to prove. That MK is a beast. That MK is intent on churning through women just to turn a buck. These are the things that you have yet to prove and as such should not keep repeating as though you have.

    Please understand, we all know you think MK is evil. You have said it enough. Now tell us WHY you think that. Or stop saying it.


    The rest of you:

    Foreverpink… well said. You should be the author of this blog!
    Anon. Also, a good point
    Mkrules… good point(s)
    MK4ME, sounds like you are on a good track… keep it up!
    FP, look what he did to my analogy!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  37. AnonymousDecember 6, 2007 at 8:18 AM

    He completely took your analogy out of context David, but didnt you expect him to do that?

    ReplyDelete
  38. AnonymousDecember 6, 2007 at 3:07 PM

    About "churning through women"...many, many industries have a high turnover rate of employment. This does NOT make the companies in those industries "beastly". :)

    ReplyDelete
  39. Jon BironDecember 6, 2007 at 7:36 PM

    Forever Pink,

    Yes. I don't think he will say anything about it either.

    The next comment we hear will most likely be back to point A.

    Blah, blah, blah, join me in proclaiming the evil of MK.

    No worries.

    MK Rules,

    Your comment (although over-simplified) is true.

    There is quite a bit more to the "churning through women" complaint than just high turnover rate.

    The problem with using Mary Kay's in/out numbers the way it is used here is that it is not a fair conclusion.

    People join for as little as $100 and so are "just trying it out". The fact that they don't "stick" is not as powerful a commentary on the company as it would be if they were offering a regular full-time job and went through the same number of employees.

    Not sure if that makes sense, just want to make sure that we don't minimize the complaints listed here.

    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
  40. AnonymousDecember 17, 2007 at 9:20 AM

    Success in MK means so many different things.

    For some moms, it might just be an extra $200 a month to call her own and to be able to blow it on something totally for HER. ('Fess up, Moms - we usually spend $$$ on ourselves last, right?)

    It might be an extra $500 a month to spend on a vacation once a year. ($6000 would buy a really nice vacation!)

    OR, someone might want to make six figures.

    BUT, to have a site like PT (or anyone else) tell you, "Don't bother to try. You won't succeed" is just foolish, because success can mean so many different things.

    Not only that, but I would imagine that whatever level of "success" you want, SOMEONE is achieving it. ;)

    ReplyDelete